PSA: Rankings Matter

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
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quiver
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby quiver » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm

PDaddy wrote:If the firms began en masse recruiting solely at TT and TTT schools, they could find just as many, if not more talented law graduates with great futures, and they could avoid the entitled attitudes of students from higher ranked schools - attitudes that often lead to failure. But they couldn't do it without spending a great deal more money on travel, interviews, background checks, summer internships, etc.
Yeah this isn't true. As someone who has attended both a T2 and a T14 law school, the student bodies are not anywhere close to the same level. From my own experience, the top people at T2s can compete at any school, but outside those top students the quality is just not the same. I don't want to comment on the predictive capacity of LSAT and GPA but it seems pretty clear, from my experience, that they're not irrelevant to law student quality.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby moneybagsphd » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:25 pm

spleenworship wrote:
bernaldiaz wrote:
That might be so (and I'm not so sure that it is), but the LSAT is so imminently learnable that if you don't do well on it then maybe you don't have the work ethic or common sense (not sure if that's the best phrase, but whatever) to succeed in law school or as an associate.


Most people aren't aware the test is learnable. Until I came to TLS, I didn't know that. It isn't common sense, since the makers of the test claim it isn't learnable, and why wouldn't you believe them?

LOL, yeah, test prep companies are making money hand over fist teaching an unlearnable test!

kaiser
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby kaiser » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:31 pm

The test is most certainly learnable. That does not mean that I think anyone can get a 180, but I mean to say that there are tricks and tips that can help anyone improve their score. You can't really make people faster readers, and you can't really change the speed at which people make logical deductions. But you can show them patterns, trends, tricks, and shortcuts that are bound to bump their scores up, and at least allow them to max out on their potential. Its learnable within a certain range that is defined by your intelligence, reading ability, deductive ability, etc.

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Br3v
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby Br3v » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:33 pm

kaiser wrote:The test is most certainly learnable. That does not mean that I think anyone can get a 180, but I mean to say that there are tricks and tips that can help anyone improve their score. You can't really make people faster readers, and you can't really change the speed at which people make logical deductions. But you can show them patterns, trends, tricks, and shortcuts that are bound to bump their scores up, and at least allow them to max out on their potential. Its learnable within a certain range that is defined by your intelligence, reading ability, deductive ability, etc.


This seems like it is dancing on the border of learnable and not. I think the test is above that border more than it appears you do.

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spleenworship
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby spleenworship » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:36 pm

quiver wrote:
PDaddy wrote:If the firms began en masse recruiting solely at TT and TTT schools, they could find just as many, if not more talented law graduates with great futures, and they could avoid the entitled attitudes of students from higher ranked schools - attitudes that often lead to failure. But they couldn't do it without spending a great deal more money on travel, interviews, background checks, summer internships, etc.
Yeah this isn't true. As someone who has attended both a T2 and a T14 law school, the student bodies are not anywhere close to the same level. From my own experience, the top people at T2s can compete at any school, but outside those top students the quality is just not the same. I don't want to comment on the predictive capacity of LSAT and GPA but it seems pretty clear, from my experience, that they're not irrelevant to law student quality.


While I might be willing to agree that academic talent is not necessarily the same at T2 and T14, and I am sure student quality is probably different...

I'm not sure that the actual practice of law requires more than a basic level of academic talent. I have met good lawyers and judges from T2s and T3s, and good lawyers and judges from the T14. I really don't think there is much correlation between school rank and how good a lawyer someone might be. Not being able to score well on the LSAT, understand cases, etc doesn't seem to be very well related to things like litigation strategy and working a jury.

kaiser
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby kaiser » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:39 pm

Br3v wrote:
kaiser wrote:The test is most certainly learnable. That does not mean that I think anyone can get a 180, but I mean to say that there are tricks and tips that can help anyone improve their score. You can't really make people faster readers, and you can't really change the speed at which people make logical deductions. But you can show them patterns, trends, tricks, and shortcuts that are bound to bump their scores up, and at least allow them to max out on their potential. Its learnable within a certain range that is defined by your intelligence, reading ability, deductive ability, etc.


This seems like it is dancing on the border of learnable and not. I think the test is above that border more than it appears you do.


I don't think "learnable" implies that anyone with the time and effort can work their way to perfection. "Learnable" to me implies that one has the ability to improve via time and effort. Of course there is an element of subjectivism given people's abilities. That doesn't change the fact that it is learnable to them to some extent that is relative to that person.

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lisjjen
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby lisjjen » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:39 pm

spleenworship wrote: Most people aren't aware the test is learnable. Until I came to TLS, I didn't know that. It isn't common sense, since the makers of the test claim it isn't learnable, and why wouldn't you believe them?


You are an idiot. I met one of the people who writes the test at a LSAC forum in New York. His exact words to me were "the LSAT is an extremely learnable test. Even more than the GRE or the MCAT."

I have also met the people who tell you it's not learnable. They didn't even do well enough to get into their local TTT.

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quiver
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby quiver » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:40 pm

spleenworship wrote:
quiver wrote:
PDaddy wrote:If the firms began en masse recruiting solely at TT and TTT schools, they could find just as many, if not more talented law graduates with great futures, and they could avoid the entitled attitudes of students from higher ranked schools - attitudes that often lead to failure. But they couldn't do it without spending a great deal more money on travel, interviews, background checks, summer internships, etc.
Yeah this isn't true. As someone who has attended both a T2 and a T14 law school, the student bodies are not anywhere close to the same level. From my own experience, the top people at T2s can compete at any school, but outside those top students the quality is just not the same. I don't want to comment on the predictive capacity of LSAT and GPA but it seems pretty clear, from my experience, that they're not irrelevant to law student quality.


While I might be willing to agree that academic talent is not necessarily the same at T2 and T14, and I am sure student quality is probably different...

I'm not sure that the actual practice of law requires more than a basic level of academic talent. I have met good lawyers and judges from T2s and T3s, and good lawyers and judges from the T14. I really don't think there is much correlation between school rank and how good a lawyer someone might be. Not being able to score well on the LSAT, understand cases, etc doesn't seem to be very well related to things like litigation strategy and working a jury.
I actually pretty much agree with this. The real issue then is not whether LSAT and GPA predict law student quality but whether law student quality has anything to do with lawyer quality. I doubt there's any way to measure this though.

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spleenworship
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby spleenworship » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:42 pm

quiver wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
While I might be willing to agree that academic talent is not necessarily the same at T2 and T14, and I am sure student quality is probably different...

I'm not sure that the actual practice of law requires more than a basic level of academic talent. I have met good lawyers and judges from T2s and T3s, and good lawyers and judges from the T14. I really don't think there is much correlation between school rank and how good a lawyer someone might be. Not being able to score well on the LSAT, understand cases, etc doesn't seem to be very well related to things like litigation strategy and working a jury.
I actually pretty much agree with this. The real issue then is not whether LSAT and GPA predict law student quality but whether law student quality has anything to do with lawyer quality. I doubt there's any way to measure this though.


Fair enough

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spleenworship
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby spleenworship » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:45 pm

lisjjen wrote:
spleenworship wrote: Most people aren't aware the test is learnable. Until I came to TLS, I didn't know that. It isn't common sense, since the makers of the test claim it isn't learnable, and why wouldn't you believe them?


You are an idiot. I met one of the people who writes the test at a LSAC forum in New York. His exact words to me were "the LSAT is an extremely learnable test. Even more than the GRE or the MCAT."

I have also met the people who tell you it's not learnable. They didn't even do well enough to get into their local TTT.


Nice ad hominem, ass. While I was incorrect about the ""makers of the test" part, I stand by the fact that most people don't know the test is learnable. If they did, TLS would have half as many hits in the law school chances and twice as many in the LSAT prep section.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby moneybagsphd » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:56 pm

lisjjen wrote:
spleenworship wrote: Most people aren't aware the test is learnable. Until I came to TLS, I didn't know that. It isn't common sense, since the makers of the test claim it isn't learnable, and why wouldn't you believe them?


You are an idiot. I met one of the people who writes the test at a LSAC forum in New York. His exact words to me were "the LSAT is an extremely learnable test. Even more than the GRE or the MCAT."

It is absolutely not more learnable than the GRE. That test is a joke.

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spleenworship
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby spleenworship » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:01 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:While the test is "learnable" in the sense that nearly everyone can improve from their diagnostic score, not everyone can get a 180. In fact, many people have trouble breaking the 160s and beyond. You have to prove you can get X score.


Look, I agree there might be a degree of correlation between intelligence and LSAT, but not much of one. Otherwise you could use the LSAT as proof that minorities are less intelligent than whites, and that obviously isn't true.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby Blessedassurance » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:24 pm

spleenworship wrote: Nice ad hominem, ass. While I was incorrect about the ""makers of the test" part, I stand by the fact that most people don't know the test is learnable. If they did, TLS would have half as many hits in the law school chances and twice as many in the LSAT prep section.


Indeed, the LSAC publications often claim the test is not "learnable". The test is learnable but not because the test-makers want it to be. It's simply the result of methodology (making sure they are testing what they purport to test thereby inadvertently developing patterns etc) and time (which increases the availability of past tests and opportunities determine those patterns etc).

I think the games section has become meaningless. It's mechanical now, to the prepared of course. Interestingly it can be a huge time-sink for the unprepared and a nightmare. Perhaps, they need to look into discarding the section and replacing it with something else.

It's a shitty test but the least shitty test around. I mean what's the alternative...lottery?

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bernaldiaz
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby bernaldiaz » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:08 pm

spleenworship wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:While the test is "learnable" in the sense that nearly everyone can improve from their diagnostic score, not everyone can get a 180. In fact, many people have trouble breaking the 160s and beyond. You have to prove you can get X score.


Look, I agree there might be a degree of correlation between intelligence and LSAT, but not much of one. Otherwise you could use the LSAT as proof that minorities are less intelligent than whites, and that obviously isn't true.


Here we go haha. Well, there really is no metric that is going to show minorities on the same intelligent level as whites. Minorities have consistently scored lower than whites on IQ tests since they first began being administered. The disadvantages that correlate highly with being a minority (poverty, worse education, less encouragement to read) are already going to have taken effect before someone takes the LSAT. So the LSAT (just like almost every single other measure of intelligence) is going to show whites as more intelligent than minorities. This is clearly not a fault in the test, but a systemic issue that is entirely outside of this argument.

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spleenworship
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby spleenworship » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:32 pm

bernaldiaz wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:While the test is "learnable" in the sense that nearly everyone can improve from their diagnostic score, not everyone can get a 180. In fact, many people have trouble breaking the 160s and beyond. You have to prove you can get X score.


Look, I agree there might be a degree of correlation between intelligence and LSAT, but not much of one. Otherwise you could use the LSAT as proof that minorities are less intelligent than whites, and that obviously isn't true.


Here we go haha. Well, there really is no metric that is going to show minorities on the same intelligent level as whites. Minorities have consistently scored lower than whites on IQ tests since they first began being administered. The disadvantages that correlate highly with being a minority (poverty, worse education, less encouragement to read) are already going to have taken effect before someone takes the LSAT. So the LSAT (just like almost every single other measure of intelligence) is going to show whites as more intelligent than minorities. This is clearly not a fault in the test, but a systemic issue that is entirely outside of this argument.


You know what, after reading moneybags argument again she wasn't talking about intelligence but academic achievement.

I was going to argue about that, but to be honest, I ain't even sure what the hell I am arguing anymore. This is what I get for arguing about this while writing a brief. :lol:

In any case, I am sticking with the thing quiver agreed with me on- good lawyers can come from any tier and rankings don't mean crap as far as that goes. IMO, they only give a rough guide as to one's starting opportunities after graduation.

EdgarWinter
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Re: PSA: Rankings Matter

Postby EdgarWinter » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:18 pm

.




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