Florida State, Baylor, or Miami Forum

[kalvano]

Also, all the people I know / have met from Baylor are desperate about employment. Not so at SMU.

Well this is mind-numblingly meaningless. Maybe Baylor people are simply more humble....? Maybe you don't know a statistically significant number of law students?

No Baylor person I have met in Dallas through internships and around town has a job, and all are very worried about the job market. There is not that same vibe at SMU. Take that for what it's worth, I never said it's gospel.

Ok I just looked at actual numbers. 74% of Baylor '10 grads found full-time employment in JD required jobs. Only 64% at SMU grads could say the same. Median salaries were similar.

Also SMU wouldn't stipulate how many jerbs were in law firms, super TTT.

For 2010, Baylor >>> SMU. Sorry if this injection of fact interferes with your unwarranted feelings of superiority.

Um, what? I looked at their sites. Your "actual numbers" are nowhere near what they are reporting. If anything, Baylor has the super-TTT lack of information.

SMU 2010 - 73% employed at graduation, 95% employed within 9 months.
Baylor 2010 - doesn't break it down by at graduation / 9 months after. They are reporting 91% employed.



The numbers for firm employment (you know, the info that SMU doesn't report, but somehow Google immediately found for me, on their website, oddly enough) are similar. A bit over 65% for both. The breakdown doesn't favor Baylor, though. SMU clearly wins for bigger firms that pay well:

SMU class of 2010:

28% in firms over 100
9% in mid-sized firms of 50-100
20% in firms of 11 – 50
40% in firms of 2-10
2% opened a solo practice.

Baylor class of 2010:

12.5% in firms over 100
6.82% into firms of 50-100
30.68% into firms 11-50
40.91% into firms 2-10
9% into solo practice

Salaries are NOT similar:

Baylor class of 2010 salaries - minimum of $30K and max of $160K with an average of $78K.
SMU class of 2010 salaries - Minimum and maximum are similar, but across all sectors, SMU has a median salary of $75K, but an average salary of $92,775.

SMU also places almost double into the generic "business" category.



So, without going more into it, you stand a much better chance of landing a higher-paying job at a firm of medium or large size (and about even at small firms) at SMU than you do from Baylor, and of making more money at graduation. Without having to live in Waco or put up with all the bullshit that Baylor puts you through.

[kalvano]

Also, doing all that research made me realize just how much SMU sucks.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Also, doing all that research made me realize just how much SMU sucks.

This is a bonus.


Also, PM me if you want me to show you how to read those employment numbers. Basically, Unless it is Yale or Chi, all those websites from the actual schools are totally misleading, so you wouldn't expect "my" numbers to be on them.

For starters, take total grads and divide it % employed, then by % employed in a JD required job, then by % of full time in that category. This is a really important number.

SMU only had 3/4 of its employed grads in JD required jobs, that is why it's total "JD required and full-time" was so low.

[kalvano]

Also, doing all that research made me realize just how much SMU sucks.

This is a bonus.


Also, PM me if you want me to show you how to read those employment numbers. Basically, Unless it is Yale or Chi, all those websites from the actual schools are totally misleading, so you wouldn't expect "my" numbers to be on them.

For starters, take total grads and divide it % employed, then by % employed in a JD required job, then by % of full time in that category. This is a really important number.

SMU only had 3/4 of its employed grads in JD required jobs, that is why it's total "JD required and full-time" was so low.

Baylor still sucks worse.


So let me get this straight, you have access to double-secret employment numbers? Where, exactly, are these numbers you are quoting from? I certainly don't believe the numbers on either school's wesbites, but 2010 numbers aren't on LST yet.

So where are these magic numbers you are quoting from?

As far as JD-required jobs, I don't put a ton of stock into that, because SMU places moderately well into the various local businesses where a JD isn't strictly required, skewing the number.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

As far as JD-required jobs, I don't put a ton of stock into that, because SMU places moderately well into the various local businesses where a JD isn't strictly required, skewing the number.

You literally do not put stock in the number of graduates who can find work as an attorney? Surely there is some self selection (at every school) but this is an incredibly important number. Most top schools are 85% plus. So SMU can be low sixties because they have better connections to business than Harvard grads? Not a good statistic for SMU.

Looking at the schools websites is day one stuff. LST gets their numbers from the same place I do: NALP/USNEWS.

Pay $30 or so and you can have all the access you want to the numbers that all the schools published to NALP through USNEWS. SMU reports 73% employed at graduation? They only told NALP that the number was 59%. It is probably because the ABA surveys that NALP uses ask a series of questions that are harder to bullshit.

They are not "super secret" numbers. They are the only numbers that the law schools publishes to outside sources, the numbers they are judged on for the precisions "rankings," and they are far more reliable than the propaganda that goes on their websites. When you hear people talking about numbers on this site, they are talking about my "super secret" numbers. They are (at best) imperfect, but they are the only numbers.

[kalvano]

You vastly overestimate how much I care about this. I already have half my summer lined up, working on the other half, should get employed from at least one of those. Neither of those opportunities would have been available from Baylor. Nor did I have to work as hard as Baylor students have to.

Also, my plan to completely fuck off and do the minimum amount possible next year would not be possible at Baylor. Nor did I have to turn in copies of case briefs to professors, endure Socratic method questioning, and I don't have to participate in some stupid fucking mandatory litigation preparation thing that will totally dominate 3L.

I'm also going to throw out there that everyone's numbers took a huge dip in 2009 and 2010, and that SMU is a much better bet in the long run than Baylor is. Aside from that, I don't see program like Test Drive and Partner to Practice at Baylor, and I do at SMU. It's not ideal, but it is something, which is better than Career Services telling you "oh shit, sorry."

Both schools give you a roughly equal shot (as far as class of 2010 goes) at a firm job. SMU gives you a much better shot at a firm job that actually pays more than a public school teacher makes. If your desire is to work for the 3-person firm of Jack, Me, & Off for $35K a year, then by all means, suffer through Baylor. If, however, you'd like a shot at a job that actually pays you like a legal professional and not less than what a public school teacher makes, then SMU is probably a better choice. Bitch about the source of the numbers however you like, but you can't argue with the breakdown of who goes to what type of firm.

And to go one step further, what law school in Texas do you attend that gives you such stunning insight into the Texas legal market? Sure you're in school in Texas and communicating with Texas employers and attorneys about the Texas legal market, right?

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

You vastly overestimate how much I care about this. I already have half my summer lined up, working on the other half, should get employed from at least one of those. Neither of those opportunities would have been available from Baylor. Nor did I have to work as hard as Baylor students have to.

Totally irrelevant followed up by a two guesses. Also the first part is hard to believe considering your post history in this thread..

Also, my plan to completely fuck off and do the minimum amount possible next year would not be possible at Baylor. Nor did I have to turn in copies of case briefs to professors, endure Socratic method questioning, and I don't have to participate in some stupid fucking mandatory litigation preparation thing that will totally dominate 3L.

I'm also going to throw out there that everyone's numbers took a huge dip in 2009 and 2010, and that SMU is a much better bet in the long run than Baylor is. Aside from that, I don't see program like Test Drive and Partner to Practice at Baylor, and I do at SMU. It's not ideal, but it is something, which is better than Career Services telling you "oh shit, sorry."

Some guesses, some irrelevant guesses, ending up with some speculation that is not backed up any data.

Both schools give you a roughly equal shot (as far as class of 2010 goes) at a firm job. SMU gives you a much better shot at a firm job that actually pays more than a public school teacher makes. If your desire is to work for the 3-person firm of Jack, Me, & Off for $35K a year, then by all means, suffer through Baylor. If, however, you'd like a shot at a job that actually pays you like a legal professional and not less than what a public school teacher makes, then SMU is probably a better choice. Bitch about the source of the numbers however you like, but you can't argue with the breakdown of who goes to what type of firm.

Your source was your school, and everyone should bitch about that. In 2010, Baylor gave a better shot at a firm job with the same salaries. Just one year, but you don't like this fact and that is 100% of why you can't accept it. I could walk you through the math on that one if you'd like, but I doubt you would open your mind up to listen. You are being arrogant; you obviously have your mind made up.

And to go one step further, what law school in Texas do you attend that gives you such stunning insight into the Texas legal market? Sure you're in school in Texas and communicating with Texas employers and attorneys about the Texas legal market, right?

I lived with UT Law students in the past and have connections to texas, but that is just as irrelevant as all of your experience. In this thread, I cited numbers. That's it. The forty other biased people that you have talked to at SMU or the 12 practicing attorneys who mostly went to SMU that you "networked" with are not relevent. The fact that your school, with every incentive in the world to error on the side of rosy, submitted actual data about what SMU grads are doing post-graduation that shows no better results that the grads from Waco is relevant. I have cited these figures and you have come back with anecdotes about what you are doing this summer, or numbers from your own schools career service website that you don't know how to interpret.

Look, UH/Baylor/SMU are peer schools when it comes to employment. Maybe SMU (other years, obv...) is slightly better than the other two, but it would be such as slight difference that it shouldn't have a meaningful affect on decision making by 0Ls. Most people like Dallas better than Waco and SMU better than Baylor. For what it is worth (nothing) I agree with most people. However, that doesn't change the fact that Baylor and SMU are peer schools. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are tied in the fairy rankings this year: it is because they offer pretty much the same employment prospects and their degrees are pretty much equally respected in Texas.

I get it-- you are an SMU 1L and you do not like this fact. End of story.

But if OP wants to stay in Texas and practice law here, Baylor is a decent choice. Probably no worse of a choice than the one you made attending SMU.

[kalvano]

Edit: I realized just how little of a fuck I give, since I'll be a 3L and this shit doesn't matter.

Even if Baylor places 10 times better than SMU, it would be a terrible choice because of the misery they proudly put their students through. It's certainly not the correct choice for the OP.

[PDaddy]

Have fun at Baylor!

[romothesavior]

Don't go

[nouseforaname123]

As far as JD-required jobs, I don't put a ton of stock into that, because SMU places moderately well into the various local businesses where a JD isn't strictly required, skewing the number.

You literally do not put stock in the number of graduates who can find work as an attorney? Surely there is some self selection (at every school) but this is an incredibly important number. Most top schools are 85% plus. So SMU can be low sixties because they have better connections to business than Harvard grads? Not a good statistic for SMU.

A third of the SMU class is in the PT-program. As a student in that program, I can tell you that enough people in the PT-program don't have an interest in JD-required jobs that the data is skewed and you aren't making an apples-to-apples comparison here.

I'm not exaggerating here. There is a statistically significant amount of people in the PT-program working at impressive F500 companies and government agencies who have no interest in practicing as attorneys . Hell, there are even a few students for whom biglaw would be a pay cut. More importantly, there are a statistically significant number of students who are still working and midlaw would be a pay cut (I fall into this category). Why would they go into JD-required positions if they can better take care of their families with their current jobs?

There are enough SMU students in the PT-program who fit this profile that it skews the data and you can't make a definitive assessment between Baylor and SMU using the JD-required metric.

In all fairness, it is possible the PT-program is also positively skewing employment data because employers seem to like students with significant WE.

[NoleinNY]

I voted FSU for the debt : employment ratio.

Food, for thought, though:

Baylor (LinkRemoved)
FSU (LinkRemoved)
Miami (LinkRemoved)

Some stats of note:

Baylor has the most Full Time, Bar Required jobs of all 3.

FSU has more Full Time, Bar Required jobs than Miami, but fewer Bar Required jobs total. Why? Because a large percent of Miami grads are only working park time.

Again, though, you lose less betting on FSU than you do at Miami and Baylor (average student graduates with half as much debt).

ETA: Hmm, the hyperlinks aren't working too well... Just go to lawschooltransparency.com and look at the data for all 3 schools (4 if you want to check out SMU for the lulz.)