ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

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tadlbb
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ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby tadlbb » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:30 am

I wasn't seriously considering attending ASU when I applied earlier this year. I did receive a scholarship, but it wasn't necessarily on my radar, as I'm OOS and thought I would have better in-state options. I'm now a little more open to it and was just wondering what the overall long-term affect of the new ranking would be. Obviously the stock answer is that these rankings are meaningless, that they shouldn't factor into your decision, are volatile, etc. I'm just wondering if maybe this is an upward trend or if people think the school will go crashing back down next year. Also, what was the reason for the jump? (New buildings, etc. I can't seem to find anything). Thanks!

CanadianWolf
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:31 am

The main reason was probably the 9 month employment percentage reported for recent grads.

The primary effect is that the law school dean will probably receive a raise & a contract extension. Applications are likely to increase as well.

RobotGardener
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby RobotGardener » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:37 am

CanadianWolf wrote:The main reason was probably the 9 month employment percentage reported for recent grads.

The primary effect is that the law school dean will probably receive a raise & a contract extension. Applications are likely to increase as well.


They don't currently have a dean. Their dean left last year and they have been looking for a replacement.

http://www.statepress.com/2011/04/28/as ... -from-gwu/

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geoduck
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby geoduck » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:38 am

Everyone knows that the best time to start a long term investment is when the stock price is most volatile.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby moneybagsphd » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:42 am

CanadianWolf wrote:The main reason was probably the 9 month employment percentage reported for recent grads.

Egregiously reported as 99% (if I recall correctly). ASU is a joke. Only go there if you want to end up in Arizona.

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romothesavior
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:54 am

They lied through their teeth about job placement. I mean yeah all law schools fudge it, but ASU's data was pretty incredible even by law school standards. Phoenix experienced one of the worst recessions in the country, yet ASU reported increased placement (possibly because they employed a ton of their own students, from what I hear). Expect that when ABA guidelines for data reporting are followed more closely, they will plummet. Although there is still a long way to go on getting good job data into students' hands, the new ABA guidelines are a good start and I think they will actually try to get schools to follow them. ASU's ascension in USNWR will be short-lived.

Whether they're ranked 20th or 100th, it doesn't matter. USNWR rankings are a joke with little real world implications. Unless you are from Arizona, its not a great choice.

RobotGardener
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby RobotGardener » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:15 am

Well the 99% number sure is not a true reflection of their employment data but they are pretty upfront about it. It took me two seconds of googling to find the real deal.

The break down is like this

167 students.

3 not seeking employment (no explanation as to why)
34 employed part time.
20 "employed" in full time off campus graduate fellowships funded by the law school.

That leaves 110 student with full time employment. That is only 65.8% of the class that is actually employed full time.

So really they are lying (but with statistics). I think this is pretty common among law schools.

Edit: source: http://www.law.asu.edu/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=COlw4E3yVXU%3d&tabid=930

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romothesavior
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:20 am

RobotGardener wrote:Well the 99% number sure is not a true reflection of their employment data but they are pretty upfront about it. It took me two seconds of googling to find the real deal.

The break down is like this

167 students.

3 not seeking employment (no explanation as to why)
34 employed part time.
20 "employed" in full time off campus graduate fellowships funded by the law school.

That leaves 110 student with full time employment. That is only 65.8% of the class that is actually employed full time.

So really they are lying (but with statistics). I think this is pretty common among law schools.

Edit: source: http://www.law.asu.edu/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=COlw4E3yVXU%3d&tabid=930

You are right, this does happen at all schools. It just happens to also go a long way towards explaining their quick rise in the rankings.

tadlbb
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby tadlbb » Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:43 am

This is all very good information to know. I appreciate it. I was wondering the same thing about UW which was also a school that received a substantial rise in their rankings. Any theories there?

rad lulz
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby rad lulz » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:35 am

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

Real Madrid
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby Real Madrid » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:09 am

rad lulz wrote:You should ED to ASU. Employers are currently signing up for OCI in DROVES. Same with UW.


Your schpiel is getting old.

desertlaw
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby desertlaw » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:10 am

romothesavior wrote:
RobotGardener wrote:Well the 99% number sure is not a true reflection of their employment data but they are pretty upfront about it. It took me two seconds of googling to find the real deal.

The break down is like this

167 students.

3 not seeking employment (no explanation as to why)
34 employed part time.
20 "employed" in full time off campus graduate fellowships funded by the law school.

That leaves 110 student with full time employment. That is only 65.8% of the class that is actually employed full time.

So really they are lying (but with statistics). I think this is pretty common among law schools.

Edit: source: http://www.law.asu.edu/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=COlw4E3yVXU%3d&tabid=930

You are right, this does happen at all schools. It just happens to also go a long way towards explaining their quick rise in the rankings.


And of those 110 students, how many have legal-related jobs and not other jobs that don't require the JD?

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Easy-E
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby Easy-E » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:34 am

rad lulz wrote:You should ED to ASU. Employers are currently signing up for OCI in DROVES. Same with UW.


Droves you say?

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romothesavior
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:05 pm

Real Madrid wrote:
rad lulz wrote:You should ED to ASU. Employers are currently signing up for OCI in DROVES. Same with UW.


Your schpiel is getting old.

How so? He's only been on TLS a month.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby moneybagsphd » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:08 pm

rad lulz wrote:You should ED to ASU. Employers are currently signing up for OCI in DROVES. Same with UW.

+1. ED to ASU is the new ED to UVA.

PolySuyGuy
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby PolySuyGuy » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:29 pm

tadlbb wrote:I wasn't seriously considering attending ASU when I applied earlier this year. . I'm now a little more open to it and was just wondering what the overall long-term affect of the new ranking would be. . I'm just wondering if maybe this is an upward trend or if people think the school will go crashing back down next year. Also, what was the reason for the jump? (New buildings, etc. I can't seem to find anything). Thanks!


IMO

ASU is determined to be a top 30 school. They expected that to be a few years away. Their 10 year goal is to be a top 20 school. They feel that being the only real law school in one of the largest cities in America entitles them to that ranking.

They should stay top 30 unless of course they get UIUC caught.

Their LSAT/GPA numbers keep increasing because they are reducing their class size every year. Down to 177 matriculates this last year. The University wants them to have at least 280 matriculates, they have the potential of having 350 matriculates.

Since they aren't bringing in the revenue through tuition, they have to make up for it some other way. Their faculty are minimal and make very little. They need a new building etc.

As for their phenomenal employment statistics, others have commented on that. I will only say that I was told that currently only one law student graduating in May has a biglaw job and it is for $160K. He is the top of his class. Nobody else has a job offer that requires a law degree and bar passage. I don't know that for sure, it is only what I was told.

Rumors that I heard were that Berman left because someone caught onto his statistical methods. When I asked someone at the school what that meant she said they removed the outliers. When I asked for clarification on that, I wasn't given any.
I also heard that Soto is negotiating with Texas to return there.


BTW, if you got to ASU you get to see Sandra Day O'connor once a year. I don't know if that factors into the ratings.

RobotGardener
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby RobotGardener » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:07 pm

PolySuyGuy wrote:As for their phenomenal employment statistics, others have commented on that. I will only say that I was told that currently only one law student graduating in May has a biglaw job and it is for $160K. He is the top of his class. Nobody else has a job offer that requires a law degree and bar passage. I don't know that for sure, it is only what I was told.

Where are you getting your information on this from? It actually doesn't make sense for more than one reason. A quick search of firm websites confirms that they obviously have several top students placing in Phoenix big law firms. They don't pay 160K (like your anecdotal person) so I am not sure why someone with any knowledge of the situation (or access to google) would guess only one and say he is making 160k.

I would guess that the number of students with these jobs is less than 5% of the class but definitely more than one.

EDIT: Nevermind. You are 0L. That explains alot.

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eringobragh
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby eringobragh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:54 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:
rad lulz wrote:You should ED to ASU. Employers are currently signing up for OCI in DROVES. Same with UW.


Your schpiel is getting old.

How so? He's only been on TLS a month.


Pretty sure he just means this:

rad lulz wrote:It's a big deal. I head employers in Illinois are refusing to hire their grads. Chicago employers are pulling out of OCI in droves.

rad lulz wrote:Yes. Way better chances at biglaw. Boston and NYC firms are gonna flock to W&L and Emory OCI in droves.

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20160810
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby 20160810 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:16 pm

EMPLOYERS DON'T CARE EMPLOYERS DON'T CARE EMPLOYERS DON'T CARE EMPLOYERS DON'T CARE

Also, employers don't care. One more time for everyone in the cheap seats: Employers don't care.

Generally speaking, ASU grads have access to one market: Phoenix. Maybe Vegas too. Probably the top 4-5 students get some interviews with big firms in LA. Not 4-5%, 4-5 students. Those employers have been interviewing at ASU for years, and will keep interviewing at ASU for years. They also use the same GPA cutoffs now, probably something like "top-10% for a shot," that they've always used. These cutoffs are incredibly slow to change, especially because most of the hiring people who set them don't know what each school's precise rank has been in any of the last 5 years, let alone how it's changed year-to-year. They just know where ASU and UofA ranked relative to one another and relative to clearly better and worse schools when they were in law school.

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FryBreadPower
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby FryBreadPower » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:25 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Real Madrid wrote:
rad lulz wrote:You should ED to ASU. Employers are currently signing up for OCI in DROVES. Same with UW.


Your schpiel is getting old.

How so? He's only been on TLS a month.


:lol:

desertlaw
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby desertlaw » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:27 pm

Getting to meet Sandra Day O'Connor should bump their rankings down. Unless she can explain why she did all of her opinions in using 8-factor, 3-part tests. Then it'd be worth listening. Otherwise, terrible. (I'm not bitter about how many opinions of hers I've struggle through)

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:33 pm

I would echo exactly what has been said about ASU sucking.

I would offer the alternative opinion that this new ranking will actually hurt them in the rankings. Think their peer assessment score (worth the most out of all factors) won't go down over this? Other law schools control this, and they will all be pissed that ASU said that 99% of their grads were employed. Look at Hastings or Wake--- if they reported 95%+ plus they would be in the top 30/25 easy. They are penalized in this situation for being ethical... Think that they are going to like reading about this 99% bullshit from ASU?

No big surprise they fired the dean. This is ridiculous.

If you are a 0L and you attend ASU thinking you are going to get a jerb in Cali or Texas because of the big #26, you are too far gone already. Bon voyage.

JamesChapman23
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby JamesChapman23 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:36 pm

PolySuyGuy wrote:
tadlbb wrote:I wasn't seriously considering attending ASU when I applied earlier this year. . I'm now a little more open to it and was just wondering what the overall long-term affect of the new ranking would be. . I'm just wondering if maybe this is an upward trend or if people think the school will go crashing back down next year. Also, what was the reason for the jump? (New buildings, etc. I can't seem to find anything). Thanks!


IMO

ASU is determined to be a top 30 school. They expected that to be a few years away. Their 10 year goal is to be a top 20 school. They feel that being the only real law school in one of the largest cities in America entitles them to that ranking.

They should stay top 30 unless of course they get UIUC caught.

Their LSAT/GPA numbers keep increasing because they are reducing their class size every year. Down to 177 matriculates this last year. The University wants them to have at least 280 matriculates, they have the potential of having 350 matriculates.

Since they aren't bringing in the revenue through tuition, they have to make up for it some other way. Their faculty are minimal and make very little. They need a new building etc.

As for their phenomenal employment statistics, others have commented on that. I will only say that I was told that currently only one law student graduating in May has a biglaw job and it is for $160K. He is the top of his class. Nobody else has a job offer that requires a law degree and bar passage. I don't know that for sure, it is only what I was told.

Rumors that I heard were that Berman left because someone caught onto his statistical methods. When I asked someone at the school what that meant she said they removed the outliers. When I asked for clarification on that, I wasn't given any.
I also heard that Soto is negotiating with Texas to return there.


BTW, if you got to ASU you get to see Sandra Day O'connor once a year. I don't know if that factors into the ratings.


The weird thing is that ASU's undergrad is just completely garbage. It's a eight year adult daycare center, the only thing gained at graudation being a worthless piece of paper and a mild case of alcoholism.

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chup
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby chup » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:59 pm

tadlbb wrote:I wasn't seriously considering attending ASU when I applied earlier this year.

Everything after this sentence is inconsequential, and if a rankings boost predicated on made-up employment numbers is enough to convince you otherwise, you deserve everything you get by going there.

gravityrides0
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Re: ASU New USNWR Ranking/Affect on School

Postby gravityrides0 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:02 pm

JamesChapman23 wrote:
PolySuyGuy wrote:
tadlbb wrote:I wasn't seriously considering attending ASU when I applied earlier this year. . I'm now a little more open to it and was just wondering what the overall long-term affect of the new ranking would be. . I'm just wondering if maybe this is an upward trend or if people think the school will go crashing back down next year. Also, what was the reason for the jump? (New buildings, etc. I can't seem to find anything). Thanks!


IMO

ASU is determined to be a top 30 school. They expected that to be a few years away. Their 10 year goal is to be a top 20 school. They feel that being the only real law school in one of the largest cities in America entitles them to that ranking.

They should stay top 30 unless of course they get UIUC caught.

Their LSAT/GPA numbers keep increasing because they are reducing their class size every year. Down to 177 matriculates this last year. The University wants them to have at least 280 matriculates, they have the potential of having 350 matriculates.

Since they aren't bringing in the revenue through tuition, they have to make up for it some other way. Their faculty are minimal and make very little. They need a new building etc.

As for their phenomenal employment statistics, others have commented on that. I will only say that I was told that currently only one law student graduating in May has a biglaw job and it is for $160K. He is the top of his class. Nobody else has a job offer that requires a law degree and bar passage. I don't know that for sure, it is only what I was told.

Rumors that I heard were that Berman left because someone caught onto his statistical methods. When I asked someone at the school what that meant she said they removed the outliers. When I asked for clarification on that, I wasn't given any.
I also heard that Soto is negotiating with Texas to return there.


BTW, if you got to ASU you get to see Sandra Day O'connor once a year. I don't know if that factors into the ratings.


The weird thing is that ASU's undergrad is just completely garbage. It's a eight year adult daycare center, the only thing gained at graudation being a worthless piece of paper and a mild case of alcoholism.


hahaha. I go to ASU, and this is very true for the majority... but remember that ASU is a massive school-- a lot of good in-state students go here because they are drawn by free tuition and a great honors faculty. with that being said, if you don't actively seek out the best classes and opportunities at the school, you get lost in the crowd of comm major sluts. but after 4 years of searching for a niche and learning who/what to avoid at ASU, I must say that I grew to love my time here, the friends I have found, the research jobs I have held, and the amazing professors I have had the opportunity to interact with.

as for the law school... I don't know very much about career prospects, drama with the rankings etc... but YES, my number 1 reason for not applying was basically to not have to deal with the 50,000 annoying undergrads sloppily longboarding through a crowded campus bragging about how wasted they got last weekend. when i am a 25 year old 3L, there is no way I'll still be able to stomach it...




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