UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

which would you choose and why?

Poll ended at Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:25 am

Texas 138,000 scholly
19
16%
NYU 75,000 scholly
80
69%
Cornell 105,000 scholly
17
15%
 
Total votes: 116

justinp
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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby justinp » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:34 pm

Angrygeopolitically wrote:
Mike12188 wrote:If you're not looking to work in TX I'd def pay the extra 20-30k, to live in NYC for 3 years as opposed to Ithaca.


I think the difference would be more like 70k.

My family is in Texas. But honestly I am tired of the south and would prefer a place a little more liberal. But I imagine I can pull that from Austin?


One caveat re: UT is that you need to do *very* well to get Austin biglaw. The (probably a bit exaggerated but mostly true) line that I've heard from current students is that top 20% opens up the New York and Austin markets; most other folks in the top half go to Dallas/Houston biglaw or Austin/Dallas/Houston government jobs, and bottom half go to small firms/local gov in smaller cities/killself.

Point being that it would be unwise to attend UT if the only place in TX you'd be happy to work is Austin and you're set on biglaw. Plenty of people do manage to get jobs in Austin from outside the top 20%, but they tend not to be Baker/V&E/Fulbright or the other good Austin shops (Graves Dougherty, Andrews Kurth, etc. etc.)

Good luck!

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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:24 pm

If "any old biglaw job wherever I can get it" is what you want, then NYU is the hands down winner. Especially if you want to be someplace that isn't Dallas or Houston. You can always take a stab at Austin firms from NYU if you want, but you have the big NYC safety net.

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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby lawlcat4179 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:00 am

Well, the consensus seems to be NYU. I have a tendency to be debt averse (as well as play devil's advocate), so I'll offer my disagreement and you can take it for what its worth. Here is why Texas is the better offer.

1. Salaries are not created equal. 160000 in NYC is not equal to 160000 in Dallas, Houston, Austin, etc. I ran the cost of living calculator and 160000 in texas is equal to roughly 350000 in NYC. Lets say that texas has a 35% chance of getting you a salary around 160,000. If this is the case you have a 35% chance of coming out of Texas making the NYC equivalent of 350,000 a year, and you'll have zero debt from day one. Basically, you'd be living like a king.

2. Taxes are not created equal. In NYC you have to pay taxes. NYC state taxes are roughly 6.5%. City taxes are roughly 3.5%. This is 10% of your income that gets taxed that wouldn't get taxed in Texas. Suddenly your 160K salary in NYC is now 144k.

3. Cost of attendance is not created equal. To attend NYU, you would be looking at roughly 15-20k extra per year in cost of attendance. Even at 15k per year this is about 50K after you graduate (including interest).

4. If you go to NYU you get 60k less in scholarships and it costs you 50k more to attend. This is 110 thousand dollars. This 110 thousand dollars will take a long time to pay off in NYC (see reasons 1 and 2). This 110 thousand dollars will charged at an 8.5% interest rate through grad plus. This will add roughly 30k to your debt if you can pay down your debt incredibly quickly (within 4 years).

5. If you go to Texas, the money you make and don't have to pay in loans can be reinvested to actually make you money. At a return rate of roughly 8.5% you will make roughly 30K within about 4 years. This, when compared to the interest problem in point 4, is roughly a 60k swing.

6. At NYU, it would probably take you about 4 years to pay off your debt. Do you plan on working biglaw your whole life? If you are like most, you will be out of biglaw in 4 years. Your reward for those 4 years... you get to break even on your loans. At texas, if you hit biglaw, after year 4 you could conceivable save up 150k or more. This is a pretty good nest egg going forward.

7. If you fail miserably at NYU, you will have over 100k in loans with no way to service them. If you fail miserably at Texas, you will have no loans and it wouldn't completely ruin your life.

8. The big reason in favor of NYU would be that you probably have double the chance of making biglaw. Lets say 70% to Texas' 35%. The upside at NYU is that you have a 70% chance of being able to pay back your loans before you get canned from biglaw, and texas you have a 35% chance of living like a king.

9. My conclusion, if you're looking for career security/money, texas wins by a mile. Would you rather come out of texas making 40k a year in shitlaw while working your way up to a higher salary/ partner, or working in a sweatshop in NYC hoping that you can pay off your massive debt before they can you? To me, the choice is incredibly easy. Plus, at Texas you do have a realistic shot at making 150k a year with no debt.

Honestly, the only real reasons I see for taking NYU are the following... 1. You want to say you went to NYU, 2. You have delusions of being a biglaw partner in NYC, 3. You really hate texas and want to move. Of course, only you can put a monetary value on these things. Anyway, just my 2 cents. Don't necessarily listen to the groupthink mentality.

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Angrygeopolitically
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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby Angrygeopolitically » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:16 am

lawlcat4179 wrote:Well, the consensus seems to be NYU. I have a tendency to be debt averse (as well as play devil's advocate), so I'll offer my disagreement and you can take it for what its worth. Here is why Texas is the better offer.

1. Salaries are not created equal. 160000 in NYC is not equal to 160000 in Dallas, Houston, Austin, etc. I ran the cost of living calculator and 160000 in texas is equal to roughly 350000 in NYC. Lets say that texas has a 35% chance of getting you a salary around 160,000. If this is the case you have a 35% chance of coming out of Texas making the NYC equivalent of 350,000 a year, and you'll have zero debt from day one. Basically, you'd be living like a king.

2. Taxes are not created equal. In NYC you have to pay taxes. NYC state taxes are roughly 6.5%. City taxes are roughly 3.5%. This is 10% of your income that gets taxed that wouldn't get taxed in Texas. Suddenly your 160K salary in NYC is now 144k.

3. Cost of attendance is not created equal. To attend NYU, you would be looking at roughly 15-20k extra per year in cost of attendance. Even at 15k per year this is about 50K after you graduate (including interest).

4. If you go to NYU you get 60k less in scholarships and it costs you 50k more to attend. This is 110 thousand dollars. This 110 thousand dollars will take a long time to pay off in NYC (see reasons 1 and 2). This 110 thousand dollars will charged at an 8.5% interest rate through grad plus. This will add roughly 30k to your debt if you can pay down your debt incredibly quickly (within 4 years).

5. If you go to Texas, the money you make and don't have to pay in loans can be reinvested to actually make you money. At a return rate of roughly 8.5% you will make roughly 30K within about 4 years. This, when compared to the interest problem in point 4, is roughly a 60k swing.

6. At NYU, it would probably take you about 4 years to pay off your debt. Do you plan on working biglaw your whole life? If you are like most, you will be out of biglaw in 4 years. Your reward for those 4 years... you get to break even on your loans. At texas, if you hit biglaw, after year 4 you could conceivable save up 150k or more. This is a pretty good nest egg going forward.

7. If you fail miserably at NYU, you will have over 100k in loans with no way to service them. If you fail miserably at Texas, you will have no loans and it wouldn't completely ruin your life.

8. The big reason in favor of NYU would be that you probably have double the chance of making biglaw. Lets say 70% to Texas' 35%. The upside at NYU is that you have a 70% chance of being able to pay back your loans before you get canned from biglaw, and texas you have a 35% chance of living like a king.

9. My conclusion, if you're looking for career security/money, texas wins by a mile. Would you rather come out of texas making 40k a year in shitlaw while working your way up to a higher salary/ partner, or working in a sweatshop in NYC hoping that you can pay off your massive debt before they can you? To me, the choice is incredibly easy. Plus, at Texas you do have a realistic shot at making 150k a year with no debt.

Honestly, the only real reasons I see for taking NYU are the following... 1. You want to say you went to NYU, 2. You have delusions of being a biglaw partner in NYC, 3. You really hate texas and want to move. Of course, only you can put a monetary value on these things. Anyway, just my 2 cents. Don't necessarily listen to the groupthink mentality.



Beautiful. Thank you

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top30man
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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby top30man » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:23 am

rad lulz wrote:
f0bolous wrote:Because of:
Angrygeopolitically wrote:I want a job. And I don't want debt. I like the pace of Austin and Ithaca but I would love to live in Manhattan. ummm..

I'm trying to be conservative considering the market.


and

Angrygeopolitically wrote:
Mike12188 wrote:If you're not looking to work in TX I'd def pay the extra 20-30k, to live in NYC for 3 years as opposed to Ithaca.


I think the difference would be more like 70k.

My family is in Texas. But honestly I am tired of the south and would prefer a place a little more liberal. But I imagine I can pull that from Austin?


I vote NYU. The difference is probably significantly more than 70K due to COL differences, but I think in your case NYU is the safest bet for biglaw. If you ever decide you want to come back to Texas, NYU with your ties to the state can get you back. Austin is a tough market to crack, regardless of which school you go to, so you might as well get the sure thing which is NYC. Cornell's only strength is NYC, but since you have NYU with $$, it really shouldn't even be considered at this point.


Basically this.

NYU dude. If you can stand the south, Texas.

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PARTY
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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby PARTY » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:39 am

top30man wrote:NYU dude. If you can stand the south, Texas.

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Angrygeopolitically
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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby Angrygeopolitically » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:16 am

Since I got a full-ride to UT, do I still have to pay a seat deposit?

What I am getting at is maybe I can just pay the seat deposit for NYU and hold off on the decision for another month.

I don't feel like dropping 1000 in seat deposits because I am not ready for grown up decisions. And I am still waiting to hear back from Harvard, Stanford and Columbia.

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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby Greenandgold » Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:15 am

Angrygeopolitically wrote:Since I got a full-ride to UT, do I still have to pay a seat deposit?

What I am getting at is maybe I can just pay the seat deposit for NYU and hold off on the decision for another month.

I don't feel like dropping 1000 in seat deposits because I am not ready for grown up decisions. And I am still waiting to hear back from Harvard, Stanford and Columbia.


Part of the requirement for NYU's seat deposit is that you withdraw from every other school that you've been accepted too.

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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby sunynp » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:08 pm

Mike12188 wrote:
Angrygeopolitically wrote:
Mike12188 wrote:If you're not looking to work in TX I'd def pay the extra 20-30k, to live in NYC for 3 years as opposed to Ithaca.


I think the difference would be more like 70k.

My family is in Texas. But honestly I am tired of the south and would prefer a place a little more liberal. But I imagine I can pull that from Austin?


NYU tuition is 5k less than Cornell a year. Difference in Scholly is 30k - I understand COL difference between NYC and Ithaca but 70k? seems out there, unless I'm missing something.

COA for NYU: $74,704
COA for Cornell: $74,680


Are these numbers right? I've never been to Ithaca but I don't see how it could be so close in cost to NYU living in Manhattan. Does the 5 grand difference in tuition make up the difference? Why is Cornell COA so high?

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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby Br3v » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:17 pm

Weird, but UT imo

lawlcat4179
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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby lawlcat4179 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:30 pm

Angrygeopolitically wrote:
lawlcat4179 wrote:Well, the consensus seems to be NYU. I have a tendency to be debt averse (as well as play devil's advocate), so I'll offer my disagreement and you can take it for what its worth. Here is why Texas is the better offer.

1. Salaries are not created equal. 160000 in NYC is not equal to 160000 in Dallas, Houston, Austin, etc. I ran the cost of living calculator and 160000 in texas is equal to roughly 350000 in NYC. Lets say that texas has a 35% chance of getting you a salary around 160,000. If this is the case you have a 35% chance of coming out of Texas making the NYC equivalent of 350,000 a year, and you'll have zero debt from day one. Basically, you'd be living like a king.

2. Taxes are not created equal. In NYC you have to pay taxes. NYC state taxes are roughly 6.5%. City taxes are roughly 3.5%. This is 10% of your income that gets taxed that wouldn't get taxed in Texas. Suddenly your 160K salary in NYC is now 144k.

3. Cost of attendance is not created equal. To attend NYU, you would be looking at roughly 15-20k extra per year in cost of attendance. Even at 15k per year this is about 50K after you graduate (including interest).

4. If you go to NYU you get 60k less in scholarships and it costs you 50k more to attend. This is 110 thousand dollars. This 110 thousand dollars will take a long time to pay off in NYC (see reasons 1 and 2). This 110 thousand dollars will charged at an 8.5% interest rate through grad plus. This will add roughly 30k to your debt if you can pay down your debt incredibly quickly (within 4 years).

5. If you go to Texas, the money you make and don't have to pay in loans can be reinvested to actually make you money. At a return rate of roughly 8.5% you will make roughly 30K within about 4 years. This, when compared to the interest problem in point 4, is roughly a 60k swing.

6. At NYU, it would probably take you about 4 years to pay off your debt. Do you plan on working biglaw your whole life? If you are like most, you will be out of biglaw in 4 years. Your reward for those 4 years... you get to break even on your loans. At texas, if you hit biglaw, after year 4 you could conceivable save up 150k or more. This is a pretty good nest egg going forward.

7. If you fail miserably at NYU, you will have over 100k in loans with no way to service them. If you fail miserably at Texas, you will have no loans and it wouldn't completely ruin your life.

8. The big reason in favor of NYU would be that you probably have double the chance of making biglaw. Lets say 70% to Texas' 35%. The upside at NYU is that you have a 70% chance of being able to pay back your loans before you get canned from biglaw, and texas you have a 35% chance of living like a king.

9. My conclusion, if you're looking for career security/money, texas wins by a mile. Would you rather come out of texas making 40k a year in shitlaw while working your way up to a higher salary/ partner, or working in a sweatshop in NYC hoping that you can pay off your massive debt before they can you? To me, the choice is incredibly easy. Plus, at Texas you do have a realistic shot at making 150k a year with no debt.

Honestly, the only real reasons I see for taking NYU are the following... 1. You want to say you went to NYU, 2. You have delusions of being a biglaw partner in NYC, 3. You really hate texas and want to move. Of course, only you can put a monetary value on these things. Anyway, just my 2 cents. Don't necessarily listen to the groupthink mentality.



Beautiful. Thank you


I gotta be honest, being TLS and all, I never really expected anyone to take the debt aversion angle very seriously. Since it appears you did, I feel I should offer some caveats to think about.

1. When I mentioned the COL differences, bear in mind that at NYU you could conceivably come back to Texas and reap the benefits of a Cost of Living difference. If this is factoring into your decision at all, I would email a couple partners at Texas firms and see how they view NYU grads vs Texas grads. If NYU doesn't offer you a boost (which I suspect it probably wouldn't in Texas vs. UTexas), this would be something to think about.

2. Something that could also factor into the decision is stress. Knowing that you have a full ride could reduce your stress level, this could either be beneficial or detrimental to your performance depending on your personality. The opposite effect at NYU. WIth a huge debt level, you may be A. motivated to do really well cuz otherwise youre screwed, or B. overly freaked out about the debt causing you stress and a lower quality of life/performance. Only you know how you would react in such a situation

3. I will close by saying this: Based off of what I have heard/learned, law school is similar to a poker game. To call it a gamble is the wrong analogy since you have some control over your outcome, but to call it all skill is very misguided as well. In poker you can have pocket aces, the single best hand possible, and yet against any given hand you generally won't ever be more than a 90% favorite to win. Many times in poker you can do everything right, you read people perfectly, lay a trap for them, and get them to put in all their money drawing to only a couple outs. Unfortunately, even sometimes when you do everything right you can still lose. Sometimes you just get unlucky. As in law school, sometimes you can do everything right (pick a great school, study hard, network, etc) and still lose. No one would deny that your odds of losing at Texas are better. This is backed up by data. However, you need to evaluate the risk into the equation as well.

Even adjusting for COL differences, I think that on average (using expected value) a degree from NYU would make you more money over the course of your lifetime. However, with Texas you have a free shot at the game, and a pretty good shot as well. No one would argue to go to Cooley for free vs 150K to go to NYU. The placement stats from NYU would just be too great of a disparity. But UTexas is not Cooley. It is a great school that places roughly a third of its students into the top paying firms in the country. Also, coming in with a full ride, your LSAT and GPA would suggest that you would do well there. Obviously LSAT and GPA can only predict so much, but a .4 correlation is pretty significant and if I had to bet on someone to beat the curve, it would be you.

I'll end my rant with this. I feel like the upside at Texas is better than the upside at NYU (biglaw with no debt vs biglaw with debt). I also feel that the worst case scenario from texas is better than worst case from NYU (unemployed or shitlaw with no debt vs unemployed or shitlaw with huge debt). However, in the middle of the curve is in my opinion where NYU is the better play. Biglaw with debt would certainly trump shitlaw with no debt (by how much I don't know). No one is going to hold it against you for going with either (they are both great options), but if you do think that you want to go to NYU, you need to really assess the possibility of the worst case scenario. To do otherwise and just block it out as if it doesn't exist would be incredibly nieve (same with Texas since unemployment would be a real possibility if in the bottom third). If you are prepared for that possibility, go for it and don't look back.

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Angrygeopolitically
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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby Angrygeopolitically » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:35 pm

Ok, I asked everyone for more money. Hopefully this will make my decision easier. I don't know if any of them will budge though.....?

EdgarWinter
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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby EdgarWinter » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:11 pm

.
Last edited by EdgarWinter on Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby jkpolk » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:14 pm

The poll looks like a poll

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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby Bronck » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:28 pm

EdgarWinter wrote:Just want to point out that there is no way you are going to invest 30k in anything and take back a guaranteed 8.5% profit. Interest rates don't work like that. Inflation is only at 2-3% and if you manage a return better than that in this shaky economy you will be lucky. As for the rest of the discussion, carry on.


Gotta take into account the capital gains tax, so your investments have to increase by over 10% every year to beat the guaranteed interest rate of paying back one's loans.

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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby lawlcat4179 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:15 am

Bronck wrote:
EdgarWinter wrote:Just want to point out that there is no way you are going to invest 30k in anything and take back a guaranteed 8.5% profit. Interest rates don't work like that. Inflation is only at 2-3% and if you manage a return better than that in this shaky economy you will be lucky. As for the rest of the discussion, carry on.


Gotta take into account the capital gains tax, so your investments have to increase by over 10% every year to beat the guaranteed interest rate of paying back one's loans.


I'm assuming that this is directed at the comment that I made earlier (since I believe I was the only one talking about 30k and investments) about being able to take earnings from texas biglaw and reinvest them to earn you a 30k profit in 4 years as opposed to paying 30k in interest on gradplus loans over the same time period. If that is not the case, then disregard the following:

1. In my post I assumed that you would pay off your 140k (including interest) big law debt in 4 years. This would be a repayment of roughly 35k per year. Yes, I am aware that this would in all likelihood be backloaded due to lockstep raises, nonetheless, 35k per year is fairly reasonable.

How to earn 30k in interest (including after taxes) from these contributions:
Year 1, invest 35k @ 10% interest= roughly 36500 after taxes (factoring in that you pay in as you go throughout the year). Actual return on this money will be roughly 5%
Year 2, old 36500 becomes roughly 39600 after tax. Add in your 36500 for that years contributions plus interest= new total of 76100
Year 3, old 76100 becomes roughly 82550 after tax. Add in your 36500 for that years contributions plus interest= new total of 119,050
Year 4, old 119, 050 becomes roughly 129200 after tax. Add in your 36500 for that years contributions plus interest= new total of 165700
165700-140000 payed in equals 25,700 in interest earned over 4 years, or in other words, basically 30 thousand dollars. This was also based on a 10% return, when the actual historical rate of return for the S&P 500 is more like 11% (which would bring the number closer to 30,000).

Yes, I am aware that these are estimates as I do not really feel it necessary to get any more specific. Any rounding errors would likely only lead to a difference of a few thousand dollars either way.

As for the other point, while you certainly can't find an investment that guarantees an 8.5% rate of return (other than paying off existing debts), you nonetheless should use the historical rate of return in your assumptions. Otherwise, what rate are we supposed to use? The risk-free rate? To use the risk free rate wouldn't make any sense as only someone who hates money would store all their money in Tbills for investment purposes. Hence, the general market average of using the rate of return on the S&P 500.

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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby Angrygeopolitically » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:41 pm

UT would not increase the scholarship, which is understandable. Still waiting on NYU and Cornell..

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Angrygeopolitically
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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby Angrygeopolitically » Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:40 pm

Ok. NYU would not increase the 75,000. So unless Cornell pushes the scholarship to full-tuition (or so), or I hear something from Harvard, Stanford or Columbia, which have been totally silent to this point, I guess I can say Hook em' horns.

I think Texas for free over NYU with only a $75,000 scholarship.... :| Life is hard.

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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby NinerFan » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:35 am

Angrygeopolitically wrote:Ok. NYU would not increase the 75,000. So unless Cornell pushes the scholarship to full-tuition (or so), or I hear something from Harvard, Stanford or Columbia, which have been totally silent to this point, I guess I can say Hook em' horns.

I think Texas for free over NYU with only a $75,000 scholarship.... :| Life is hard.


Going to a pretty good law school for free will apparently just be one of those character building moments for you. Hopefully you'll somehow persevere.

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Angrygeopolitically
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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby Angrygeopolitically » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:06 pm

Yeah --LinkRemoved--

I just feel like I am throwing away my 178. I saw someone with the same stats minus 8 lsat points and they got the same UT scolly. But I guess im pretty much being a baby now.

One issue- why in the world is the poll so heavy in favor of NYU. Is NYU really worth 100K over UT. hmph.. I have until the end of today to accept or decline the NYU scholarship.

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Nelson
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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby Nelson » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:08 pm

Angrygeopolitically wrote:One issue- why in the world is the poll so heavy in favor of NYU.

Mostly because people are dumb, but also because you said you wanted to work in NYC.

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Re: UT 138K, NYU 74K or Cornell 105K

Postby Alan » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:45 am

Angrygeopolitically wrote:Ok. NYU would not increase the 75,000. So unless Cornell pushes the scholarship to full-tuition (or so), or I hear something from Harvard, Stanford or Columbia, which have been totally silent to this point, I guess I can say Hook em' horns.

I think Texas for free over NYU with only a $75,000 scholarship.... :| Life is hard.


First world problems.

Edit: I see this has already been mentioned. 178?! Wow.




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