Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

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rad lulz
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:43 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JCFindley
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby JCFindley » Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:45 pm

rad lulz wrote:
JCFindley wrote:Just be at the top of your class

lol ok


Well, yeah, exactly!

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:34 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Of course you're not precluded, and it would be wrong to say that. And of course it depends on grades too, but that's not really within your control at this point (you have no way to know how well you will do in school), but ties are something you know of now and can account for beforehand. And when you're already behind the 8ball in regards to all the natives, I wouldn't take the gamble with such large sums of money in a hilariously depressed market (see, e.g., Midwest T25 OCI thread).


I see what you mean. Someone who chooses to leave their region to attend Minnesota or Alabama is certainly motivated more by the U.S. News rankings than their own logic and reasoning skills. Unless those skills are rusty, of course.

MrAnon
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MrAnon » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:43 pm

Minnesota hands down. Its a top 20 school. Everyone in law knows it.

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MTBike
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MTBike » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:34 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Of course you're not precluded, and it would be wrong to say that. And of course it depends on grades too, but that's not really within your control at this point (you have no way to know how well you will do in school), but ties are something you know of now and can account for beforehand. And when you're already behind the 8ball in regards to all the natives, I wouldn't take the gamble with such large sums of money in a hilariously depressed market (see, e.g., Midwest T25 OCI thread).


I see what you mean. Someone who chooses to leave their region to attend Minnesota or Alabama is certainly motivated more by the U.S. News rankings than their own logic and reasoning skills. Unless those skills are rusty, of course.


Exactly!! People can attend UM and not be motivated by USnews. Maybe, perhaps, because it is an excellent school? No... that would make too much sense. Radlulz's troll eyes are set too close together.

rad lulz
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:54 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AD10390
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby AD10390 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:37 pm

I understand that where your ties are helps and Fordham is still a serious consideration. As well as Cornell and Vandy. That being said going to Bama would cost about 5k a yr, Minnesota about 19k a yr, where Fordham or Cornell at sticker would be 45 and 51 respectively. So as much as being able to pick and choose where I have ties, that isn't necessarily the only option when you compare potentially 15-60k in debt to 150k in debt after graduation.
I'm excluding housing costs for the time being because I would have to relocate for all schools.

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drylo
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby drylo » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:13 am

I can't take it anymore. I have to back rad lulz on this one. OP, if you really want to, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to go to one of these schools with that little scholarship money and no ties to anywhere except NY... but you better be really sure you want to. Both schools are going to place regionally, and that's about it, by and large. Furthermore, based on my knowledge/experience, unless you are a URM, the primary markets for these schools are going to be pretty hard to break into without any ties to the areas whatsoever.

If you are comfortable with that reality, then do whatever you want. Seriously. But you should know what the reality is.

ETA: I can't read and assumed that the $25k was total scholarship money, not the annual amount--so the potential negative consequences are not as bad as I might have implied. Nonetheless, I stand by my analysis.
Last edited by drylo on Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:41 am

Wait until you know about Fordham, Vanderbilt & Cornell. Otherwise, so long as you enter Alabama with your eyes open regarding the placement realities, then $5,000 a year for a Tier One law school is quite reasonable.

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geoduck
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby geoduck » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:05 am

UM is in Michigan and has better job prospects. We're UMN.

But seriously... Why would you want to move to Alabama?

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romothesavior
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:14 am

MTBike wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
MTBike wrote:Don't go to LS and work at K-Mart?

Why are going to lawl school and working at K-Mart the only two options.


You are the trolliest of all trolls... isnt there some sort of troll forum you should be on instead of here? Trollytrollerson.com? drtrollster.org? Im just spitballing here. Trying to help you out.

rad lulz gets shit on a lot for giving snippy responses sometimes (you'd call that trolly, I guess?), but I think all of his answers ITT display a great deal of thoughtfulness. And they're dead on.

OP, these are good schools. You could do well at them. But you are looking at a lot of debt and a tough job market at both, and you lack ties to their primary markets. Are ties absolutely necessary to get a job? No. But when you are already fighting an uphill battle, it would be unwise to put yourself in a trench to start. In general, no ties + regional school + expensive = don't go.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:18 am

rad lulz wrote:
MTBike wrote:Don't go to LS and work at K-Mart?

Why are going to lawl school and working at K-Mart the only two options.

And this is a good question that more 0Ls should think about.

When we say "Don't go," it doesn't mean "Go bag groceries for the rest of your life." It means retake the LSAT so you can go to a school that makes financial/career sense, take some time off for a while if you need to, find another career path better suited to your interests, or a career path that isn't so financially reckless, etc. Don't turn the message on here into a straw man.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:19 am

Alabama will only cost OP $5,000 a year, according to a post above in this thread. Probably does not include living expenses, but living expenses in Tuscaloosa are very reasonable.

As an aside, the President of the Univ. of Alabama told me that Alabama's largest alumni group is in NYC. Hard to believe, but interesting.

P.S. No harm in seeking a full tuition & fees scholarship to Alabama. My understanding is that Alabama also often offers scholarship money for books.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:24 am

CanadianWolf wrote:As an aside, the President of the Univ. of Alabama told me that Alabama's largest alumni group is in NYC. Hard to believe, but interesting.

Not really. NYC has more Alabama alumni than any other city? Well no kidding. New York City's population is something like 2x the entire state of Alabama. And the NYC Tri-State area is over 5x the population of Alabama. So it depends on how these stats are being drawn up, but that doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Real Madrid
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby Real Madrid » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:21 am

JCFindley wrote:Bama in steps....

1. Accept scholarship

2. Spend time not studying trying to meet an undergrad that is a Judge's daughter that thinks the LI accent is cool.

3. Spend next six months getting her to fall in love and getting engaged.

4. Spend the six months after that trying to lose the LI accent before you meet her daddy.

5. Move to Arab or Union Springs or other small Alabama town and live in happy bliss while ignoring the "You're a yankee, aren't ya?" questions the rest of your life......

OK, I am joking, kind of..... Just be at the top of your class and look at Birmingham and Huntsville which are not as deeply southern as the rest of the state. That and hit Atlanta and try and beat out the Emory, UGA and Vandy grads there.....

Anything can be done but it is a seriously parochial market, even at K-Mart.... Just make your choices with your eyes open.... On the upside, if you like the state you are a lot more likely to get a job there going to Bama than if you went to NYU or one of those California Hippie schools....

JC

(I have deep roots in AL and my dad is from the state. My mom was born in CT had to listen to the yankee comments every time we were in the state. That attitude is still prevalent in much of the state and its not hyperbole.....)


I've spent 22 years of my life in the state and yes that is hyperbole.

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MidwestJosh
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:09 am

rad lulz wrote:
MTBike wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
AD10390 wrote:Live on Long Island, ties to NYC

Since you have no ties no either region, neither.


Dumb advice... turn down a scholarship to a top 20 law school because you lack "ties"?

No... just, no.

Doesn't matter where MN is ranked (USNWR rankings are basically irrelevant forbhiring), it's a regional MN school. MN, like other Midwestern states, had a bias against outsiders who know basically nothing about the state and have no connection to it. Biglaw chances are low low low, and debt is large. What's the problem.


This couldn't be further from the truth. 70% of Minnesota's class comes from out of state 60% leave the state upon graduation. In terms of big law and government jobs, take a gander at the NALP statistics.

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JCFindley
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby JCFindley » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:30 am

Real Madrid wrote:
JCFindley wrote:Bama in steps....

1. Accept scholarship

2. Spend time not studying trying to meet an undergrad that is a Judge's daughter that thinks the LI accent is cool.

3. Spend next six months getting her to fall in love and getting engaged.

4. Spend the six months after that trying to lose the LI accent before you meet her daddy.

5. Move to Arab or Union Springs or other small Alabama town and live in happy bliss while ignoring the "You're a yankee, aren't ya?" questions the rest of your life......

OK, I am joking, kind of..... Just be at the top of your class and look at Birmingham and Huntsville which are not as deeply southern as the rest of the state. That and hit Atlanta and try and beat out the Emory, UGA and Vandy grads there.....

Anything can be done but it is a seriously parochial market, even at K-Mart.... Just make your choices with your eyes open.... On the upside, if you like the state you are a lot more likely to get a job there going to Bama than if you went to NYU or one of those California Hippie schools....

JC

(I have deep roots in AL and my dad is from the state. My mom was born in CT had to listen to the yankee comments every time we were in the state. That attitude is still prevalent in much of the state and its not hyperbole.....)


I've spent 22 years of my life in the state and yes that is hyperbole.


If it's hyperbole to you my guess is you lived in Huntsville or greater Birmingham or Auburn. The rest of the state its really not far off....

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sunynp
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby sunynp » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:34 am

OP- what are your plans after graduating? I don't see how you will get a job at all in new York from alabama. I don't think anyone will understand why you went to school there. The same may be true for Minnesota - not sure. NYC may not require ties but if you have ties and leave for a school with no local reputation and no compelling reason, I think that might hurt you. Ive never seen anyone who has done this. Maybe you should ask in the thread by the v15 guy who takes questions.

You really need to clarify your goals and understand how legal hiring works.

You should read the threads here about the market in Minnesota and Alabama. I don't think you have a great shot at getting jobs there either .

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MTBike
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MTBike » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:06 am

MidwestJosh wrote:
MTBike wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
AD10390 wrote:Live on Long Island, ties to NYC



Dumb advice... turn down a scholarship to a top 20 law school because you lack "ties"?

No... just, no.

Doesn't matter where MN is ranked (USNWR rankings are basically irrelevant forbhiring), it's a regional MN school. MN, like other Midwestern states, had a bias against outsiders who know basically nothing about the state and have no connection to it. Biglaw chances are low low low, and debt is large. What's the problem.


This couldn't be further from the truth. 70% of Minnesota's class comes from out of state 60% leave the state upon graduation. In terms of big law and government jobs, take a gander at the NALP statistics.


+1

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goldenflash19
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby goldenflash19 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:27 am

The notion of a "top 20 law school" is irrelevant. Big firms who never recruited at Minnesota are not going to start doing OCI there all of a sudden because the school cracked the "top 20" in the rankings. Students w/ ties to the state have a leg-up on their classmates in terms of gaining meaningful legal employment (the whole purpose of going to law school).

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MTBike
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MTBike » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:30 am

goldenflash19 wrote:The notion of a "top 20 law school" is irrelevant. Big firms who never recruited at Minnesota are not going to start doing OCI there all of a sudden because the school cracked the "top 20" in the rankings. Students w/ ties to the state have a leg-up on their classmates in terms of gaining meaningful legal employment (the whole purpose of going to law school).


Having a "leg up" was never in question. I think that notion is obvious. However, it doesnt mean that you simply "shouldn't go" to UMN because you don't have ties, as radlulz clearly stated.

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goldenflash19
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby goldenflash19 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:48 am

MTBike wrote:Having a "leg up" was never in question. I think that notion is obvious. However, it doesnt mean that you simply "shouldn't go" to UMN because you don't have ties, as radlulz clearly stated.


I disagree. Law school is essentially an investment, and you only get to make this investment once. You want to maximize your odds at getting a job that suits your goals, and attending school in a parochial market in which you have no ties lessens your chances.

Since OP has no ties to Minnesota or Alabama, these school are not the best possible decisions in this scenario. It wouldn't be right to advise OP to attend one of these schools when a better decision could be made.

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MTBike
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MTBike » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:54 am

goldenflash19 wrote:
MTBike wrote:Having a "leg up" was never in question. I think that notion is obvious. However, it doesnt mean that you simply "shouldn't go" to UMN because you don't have ties, as radlulz clearly stated.


I disagree. Law school is essentially an investment, and you only get to make this investment once. You want to maximize your odds at getting a job that suits your goals, and attending school in a parochial market in which you have no ties lessens your chances.

Since OP has no ties to Minnesota or Alabama, these school are not the best possible decisions in this scenario. It wouldn't be right to advise OP to attend one of these schools when a better decision could be made.


Not everyone get accepted to Yale... so no, not everyone is going to have the best possible scenerio available to them. You maximize your odds of getting a job by doing well in school, and while that is no guarantee, that is where you separate yourself from the rest of the law school pack. I understand that the only thing you have control over at this stage, on the maximization front, is choosing where you go to school... but, as I said, lets stop with this "T14, regional school with a full scholarship plus stipend, or dont go" notion, because it is incorrect.

Make the best possible choice you can, consider all options, and if UMN is your best option then do not hesitate to go. Ask anyone outside of this hell hole of a forum full of ignorant 0L's, and they will give you the same advice.

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MidwestJosh
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:13 am

MTBike wrote:
Make the best possible choice you can, consider all options, and if UMN is your best option then do not hesitate to go. Ask anyone outside of this hell hole of a forum full of ignorant 0L's, and they will give you the same advice.


Yup.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:17 am

MTBike wrote:Make the best possible choice you can, consider all options, and if UMN is your best option then do not hesitate to go. Ask anyone outside of this hell hole of a forum full of ignorant 0L's, and they will give you the same advice.

You realize almost everyone posting in here about the dangers of going to these schools is a current law student, right? If you got outside of this "hell hole of a forum of ignorant 0Ls" and asked some of the unemployed 2Ls and 3Ls at these "vaunted T20s" that you speak of, they'd say the same thing we are. No one is disparaging these schools; we're just saying that OP should consider looking at other options.

Also, you are very good at making a straw man out of other people's arguments. Where'd you learn to do that? It's an impressive skill that will take you far in the law. :roll:




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