Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

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MidwestJosh
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:06 pm

top30man wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
MidwestJosh wrote:This couldn't be further from the truth. 70% of Minnesota's class comes from out of state 60% leave the state upon graduation. In terms of big law and government jobs, take a gander at the NALP statistics.



It's more like 64% stay in the state. 74% in the Midwest region.

http://www.law.umn.edu/careers/career-f ... stics.html

You can all go back to killing each other now.

Imma let you finish but.....here are the stats. OP, I hope someone has been helpful itt. In summary, rad lulz is right. Both are too risky with no ties.


I love how you arrive at such a categorical conclusion with no actual foundation.

At any rate, if you'd like to talk to graduates and/or current students from literally ANY state, don't hesitate to PM me. I'll be more than happy to give you names of people who came here knowing full well where they wanted to go and those who literally hadn't a clue when they walked in the front door on orientation.

My ultimate point isn't that the OP should attend Minnesota but rather, ironically it seems...
You are saying stuff that simply isn't true and are giving terrible advice. When I post in these forums, I'd rather get honest feedback than false feedback.


... am putting some substantive information on the table for this discussion. I'll tell you right now, this OP is making a hell of a lot more informed decision now than with the back-and-forth idle summations of a whole lot of cluelessness. And that's what matters.

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MidwestJosh
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:26 pm

OP - I've PM'd you the name of 5 current students who came to UMN from all over the country, with no previous ties to UMN upon matriculating. 4/5 are currently 3L's; 1 is a 2L. 4/5 have jobs lined up, from what I know. I believe 3 of those 4 are going to other parts of the country. These are literally the first 5 names that came to my head of people from out of state with no previous ties. I'd be happy to connect you to more if you would like.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:45 pm

I never ceases to amaze me how reasoned responses are labeled trolling around here by ignorant 0Ls.

And MidwestJosh, that's great and all, but how bout a list of people with no jobs or jobs that are not ideal? I go to a Midwest T20 and could come up with a similar list you just did, but lets not overstate the current situation. Its bad. I would have trouble recommending WUSTL at 100k+ for a native Long Islander absent some other factor. Im not knocking UMN.

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MidwestJosh
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MidwestJosh » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:53 pm

romothesavior wrote:I never ceases to amaze me how reasoned responses are labeled trolling around here by ignorant 0Ls.

And MidwestJosh, that's great and all, but how bout a list of people with no jobs or jobs that are not ideal? I go to a Midwest T20 and could come up with a similar list you just did, but lets not overstate the current situation. Its bad. I would have trouble recommending WUSTL at 100k+ for a native Long Islander absent some other factor. Im not knocking UMN.


I didn't recommend that. And i'm not saying the employment outlooks are good. i KNOW they aren't the best. But there's a difference between jumping to conclusions about what that means and simply repeating it versus looking at actual facts and speaking with people who actually have first-hand knowledge.

I interjected in this conversation b/c the substantive quality of the discussion was downright awful. Sweeping generalization, incomplete hypotheticals, subjective interpretations, etc. By the way, there ARE people on that list who are unemployed and/or in an employment situation less than *their* ideal (and perhaps, yours..) I wasn't lying when I said that they were literally the first five out-of-staters that came to my mind.

I'll say its again...
My ultimate point isn't that the OP should attend Minnesota but rather, ironically it seems, am putting some substantive information on the table for this discussion.

chiwachiwa
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby chiwachiwa » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:05 am

MidwestJosh wrote:
chiwachiwa wrote:I'm not sure what problem you all have with Campos' stats. Just look at the table on the UMN site (http://law.umn.edu/careers/career-facts-and-statistics.html) titled Type of Employment for Graduates Known to be Employed and add up the numbers. How many graduates have jobs that would have, ex ante, been considered "worthwhile to go to law school for?"

First, let's take the law firm jobs. I'm not going to count 1-10 attorney jobs, because those are almost without exception shitlaw jobs paying $35k to do DUI defense, etc. Excluding those (and generously including the "unknown" category) = 64
I'll include all federal clerkships but no state or local clerkships = 14
I'll include all public interest jobs, assuming (generously) that everyone who went into PI actually wanted it and isn't just scrambling for something, anything = 7
For "business" and "government" categories, I'll apply the ratio of [bar required jobs : all jobs], which isn't broken out by category, to these jobs, assuming that it applies equally across all categories. (Of course, that assumption is again generous because it's likely the vast majority of non-bar required jobs are "business") = (28 + 20) * (205 / 261) = 38 jobs (rounding up)
I'm not including the 2 "Academia" jobs, because honestly, we all know no 1st year JD from UMN is getting a law prof gig = 0

That's a grand total of: 64 + 14 + 7 + 38 = 123 jobs. Out of 284 graduates = 43%. This is more generous than the Campos numbers, and I'd challenge anyone to tell me why my analysis is materially unfair. Sure, you can quibble about whether academia jobs should be included, but no matter what you do you're not getting the number even close to top-line reported number of 92% employed.

Caveat, before the biker guy comes after me: I am a current 3L, I have done very well grades-wise, have a job and a clerkship. I still believe that ex ante the decision to go to law school is a bad one for most people. OP included if he is only choosing between two regional schools in regions to which he has no ties.


Well, I'm at a firm 2-10 in size and will be making 90K. I know for a fact there are several former UMNer's with similar numbers.
That's a great outcome; congratulations. Of the 36 people who are listed at 1-10 person firms, do you honestly think more than the small number you've positively identified (4, in a later post) have near-six-figure incomes? I appreciate the anecdotal evidence, but you must agree with me that a large proportion of those 36 people working in 1-10 person firms are not making $90,000, and are making closer to the lower mode of the bi-modal distribution that we all know and love.
I won't begin to address the plethora of your other misguided, uninformed assumptions and statistical manipulations and will instead strongly suggest that you go to a school with a full ride.
I'd like to hear how misguided I am, because all I did was add up five or six numbers that are on UMN's own website. Do you think people in the "academia" category are actually law professors? Do you think the majority of people in the "business" category are in jobs for which they would have decided to go to law school, ex ante? I really don't see how what I did is so uninformed or manipulative, and if you're going to call me a liar I'd like to know why.
Forget T14 or regional+full scholly advice. For the likes of you, it is clearly best that you not have a single penny of debt, or else I suspect you'll be on this blog with the likes of those from JDunderground not long after graduation if even the slightest part of your plan goes astray.
I'm not sure what problem you all have with Campos' stats.
I can see why you don't see that.
I have plenty of debt, and am perfectly happy with MY outcome from law school, as you seem to be as well. And that's great for the two of us. But most people (more than 50%) at my school, and I am willing to bet at UMN, are not happy with THEIR outcomes.
MidwestJosh wrote:
chiwachiwa wrote:...assuming (generously) that everyone who went into PI actually wanted it and isn't just scrambling for something, anything...
By the way... your attitude is indicative of the very kind of desperation demonstrated by those who go into law school not understanding what they're getting into and who fail to fully accept that responsibly. Your assumption that everyone is like that is wrong.
I'm not sure what's wrong with that attitude, or why it's indicative of anything, let alone desperation. In fact I made an assumption that undercuts my own argument, and bolsters yours. You must agree with me that there are some people for whom PI is a legitimate goal going into law school, and some people who settle for PI when they can't find anything else. I've counted everyone in the PI category as the former (which gives the benefit of the doubt to the school, and to you) and none as the latter.

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MidwestJosh
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MidwestJosh » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:06 am

chiwachiwa wrote:That's a great outcome; congratulations. Of the 36 people who are listed at 1-10 person firms, do you honestly think more than the small number you've positively identified (4, in a later post) have near-six-figure incomes? I appreciate the anecdotal evidence, but you must agree with me that a large proportion of those 36 people working in 1-10 person firms are not making $90,000, and are making closer to the lower mode of the bi-modal distribution that we all know and love.


Well I agree that they aren't mostly toward 100K, I also suspect very few are making less than $55-60K. I know A LOT of people and don't know a single one making anywhere in the vicinity of $35K. If other UMNers know of that and want to step forward, please do - I just have absolutely no knowledge or experience of that. And for you to make that statement and say that "we all know...' when all you're basing that "knowledge" off of is the BS machine that is this forum, is troublesome.

I'd like to hear how misguided I am, because all I did was add up five or six numbers that are on UMN's own website. Do you think people in the "academia" category are actually law professors? Do you think the majority of people in the "business" category are in jobs for which they would have decided to go to law school, ex ante? I really don't see how what I did is so uninformed or manipulative, and if you're going to call me a liar I'd like to know why.


You made leaps and bounds of assumptions and took liberties with your number calculations to the extent that your outcome is incredibly misleading; and honestly, it came across as highly disrespectful and misguided For example: 1) Throwing out 1-10 firm sizes as "shitlaw", as I outlined above. 2) Not including state clerkships. That's interesting considering at least two of those clerkships were to the Minnesota Supreme Court. I know one student who deferred RobinsKaplan for that clerkship. 3.) Minnesota is a HUGE public interest school. That's why we have so many joint JD/MPP's. Your grudging assumption is disrespectful to a large swath of students who enter law school with an actual plan to work PI. (Which by the way, is indicative of the broader point that I'll get to in a moment...) 4.) Your ratio should have been using 212, not 205. And you're wrong that the vast majority of non-bar required jobs are classified as business, especially considering most of the business jobs are in-house counsel positions at companies like Cargill, Best Buy, and Target. 5.) You're also wrong about the academia jobs. It is not rare as you think for professors to start teaching directly out of law school, especially at some of the lower ranked law schools. I don't know the two who were placed for the 2010 class from which this data comes, but I do know that someone who graduated from 2009 is a now a prof at a fourth tier school in the upper Midwest. At any rate - you don't know their positions. They could have taken jobs in admissions, student services, etc that all pay well above 60K.

I have plenty of debt, and am perfectly happy with MY outcome from law school, as you seem to be as well. And that's great for the two of us. But most people (more than 50%) at my school, and I am willing to bet at UMN, are not happy with THEIR outcomes.


And my point is that I don't see that sentiment here. Perhaps everyone at UMN just hides it well, but I'm doubting that. And my point is, your willingness to bet on your assumptions are not a foundation for dispensing advice by way of numerical manipulation.

I'm not sure what's wrong with that attitude, or why it's indicative of anything, let alone desperation. In fact I made an assumption that undercuts my own argument, and bolsters yours. You must agree with me that there are some people for whom PI is a legitimate goal going into law school, and some people who settle for PI when they can't find anything else. I've counted everyone in the PI category as the former (which gives the benefit of the doubt to the school, and to you) and none as the latter.


This gets to the broader point that I'm trying to make - which is that you presume that the vast majority of people enter law school with complete uncertainty as to what they want to go into, how much they want to make, what kind of debt load they're comfortable with, etc. While I'm not denying that such naivety is certainly pervasive, I think it is terribly misguided to make the assumption that the majority or all students are the same way. Thus, the underlying theme in all of your commentary (that everybody is "scrambling for something, anything") is what feeds the advice that you and so many other peddle on this forum. And I think that's truly saddening.

What's important is that people have all of the data and fully understand what they are getting into. If they make these decisions with the fullest amount of substantive knowledge possible, then great. But before I came along in this thread, there was little by way of foundational support and more in terms of sweeping conclusions and subjective ideals. When I begin to counter those with actual information, it's driven into the ground by this terribly negative and, quite frankly, sad world view.

From the very beginning of joining this thread I've said that the OP needs to make their decision, and that I'm simply trying to balance the advice that "both schools are risky if you don't have ties". Because ultimately, that is not a statement that can be made with the kind of conviction that people on this thread are trying to make.

While I have no doubt that many of the law school naysayers, which constitute a significant number of the regular commentators on this site, have it in their mind that they are helping - I'm trying to point out that all your really doing is killing dreams. For many people, they have it in their mind that they want to be a public defender or a human rights advocate, for example. Those people see forums like this and are told to back off of some of the best schools in the country for such areas because it's not a "T14 or TTT/full ride". That's not right. If those people fully understand that it means 10 years of public service for debt forgiveness, or living on a tight income for 15 years, that's their prerogative, as long as they fully understand those numbers. My point is this: stop dispensing purely subjective opinions as if they are fact.

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MTBike
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MTBike » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:17 am

MidwestJosh wrote:While I have no doubt that many of the law school naysayers, which constitute a significant number of the regular commentators on this site, have it in their mind that they are helping - I'm trying to point out that all your really doing is killing dreams. For many people, they have it in their mind that they want to be a public defender or a human rights advocate, for example. Those people see forums like this and are told to back off of some of the best schools in the country for such areas because it's not a "T14 or TTT/full ride". That's not right. If those people fully understand that it means 10 years of public service for debt forgiveness, or living on a tight income for 15 years, that's their prerogative, as long as they fully understand those numbers. My point is this: stop dispensing purely subjective opinions as if they are fact.


I've been trying to say this same shit for a month dude... trust me, they don't/won't/refuse to listen. They are negative people, and will continue to spew negativity in the few faces of reason. As much as I agree with you, and I simply cannot agree with you more than I do, your efforts to shed ideas in a positive light will be for nothing... as they will discount it.

I applaud your efforts, but this may be a situation where you have to pick your battles.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:29 am

MidwestJosh wrote:you presume that the vast majority of people enter law school with complete uncertainty as to what they want to go into, how much they want to make, what kind of debt load they're comfortable with, etc.


AD10390 wrote:Yes taking out loans to cover excess expenses

Open to working anywhere currently.

Looking to specialize in Business Law, still uncertain on specifics.

Currently living in NY.

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drylo
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby drylo » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:43 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
MidwestJosh wrote:you presume that the vast majority of people enter law school with complete uncertainty as to what they want to go into, how much they want to make, what kind of debt load they're comfortable with, etc.


AD10390 wrote:Yes taking out loans to cover excess expenses

Open to working anywhere currently.

Looking to specialize in Business Law, still uncertain on specifics.

Currently living in NY.


LOL

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MTBike
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MTBike » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:46 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
MidwestJosh wrote:you presume that the vast majority of people enter law school with complete uncertainty as to what they want to go into, how much they want to make, what kind of debt load they're comfortable with, etc.


AD10390 wrote:Yes taking out loans to cover excess expenses

Open to working anywhere currently.

Looking to specialize in Business Law, still uncertain on specifics.

Currently living in NY.


The amount of criticism that gets dished out when someone uses one instance to represent a vast majority (in a positive light), then the pessimists go and do the exact same thing (negatively)? Fuckin astonishing.

Hypocrisy at its finest.

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sunynp
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby sunynp » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:48 am

I don't think OP will ever come back now that his thread has turned into a total farce.

Good luck with whatever you do OP.

drylo wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
MidwestJosh wrote:you presume that the vast majority of people enter law school with complete uncertainty as to what they want to go into, how much they want to make, what kind of debt load they're comfortable with, etc.


AD10390 wrote:Yes taking out loans to cover excess expenses

Open to working anywhere currently.

Looking to specialize in Business Law, still uncertain on specifics.

Currently living in NY.


LOL

chiwachiwa
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby chiwachiwa » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:50 am

MidwestJosh wrote:
chiwachiwa wrote:That's a great outcome; congratulations. Of the 36 people who are listed at 1-10 person firms, do you honestly think more than the small number you've positively identified (4, in a later post) have near-six-figure incomes? I appreciate the anecdotal evidence, but you must agree with me that a large proportion of those 36 people working in 1-10 person firms are not making $90,000, and are making closer to the lower mode of the bi-modal distribution that we all know and love.


Well I agree that they aren't mostly toward 100K, I also suspect very few are making less than $55-60K. I know A LOT of people and don't know a single one making anywhere in the vicinity of $35K. If other UMNers know of that and want to step forward, please do - I just have absolutely no knowledge or experience of that. And for you to make that statement and say that "we all know...' when all you're basing that "knowledge" off of is the BS machine that is this forum, is troublesome.
First: what I call a "good outcome" is getting a job that, had you known when you were deciding to go to law school you would end up with that job, you would have still made the decision to go to law school.

I don't think I said $35k, and if I did, my apologies. The lower mode of the bimodal distribution is around $50k. (http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/files/2010/01/salaries.gif), and that's what I was referring to. Do you really think most people who have $55k jobs in 1-10 person firms consider that a good outcome? If so, we have vastly different ideas of what a good outcome is, and this argument is pointless. (I suspect most people would agree that a $55k job out of a Tier 1 law school is not a good outcome. Even objectively, from a financial perspective, the break-even point, where going to law school makes sense, is when the salary you earn is greater than or equal to the amount of tuition debt you incurred over all three years. Not many people incur less than $55k in debt.)
I'd like to hear how misguided I am, because all I did was add up five or six numbers that are on UMN's own website. Do you think people in the "academia" category are actually law professors? Do you think the majority of people in the "business" category are in jobs for which they would have decided to go to law school, ex ante? I really don't see how what I did is so uninformed or manipulative, and if you're going to call me a liar I'd like to know why.
You made leaps and bounds of assumptions and took liberties with your number calculations to the extent that your outcome is incredibly misleading; and honestly, it came across as highly disrespectful and misguided For example: 1) Throwing out 1-10 firm sizes as "shitlaw", as I outlined above.
Sorry for the disrespect. But my numbers argument still stands (see above).
2) Not including state clerkships. That's interesting considering at least two of those clerkships were to the Minnesota Supreme Court. I know one student who deferred RobinsKaplan for that clerkship.
Again, anecdotes versus statistics. I'd gladly include the 2 SSC clerkships in the "good outcomes" category. But most state and local clerkships, we can agree, are not good outcomes, and so shouldn't be included. (This goes back to my original post, where I said that any arguments one might have about my assumptions are unlikely to have a material effect on the data. Sure, we can add a few 1-10 jobs that make $90k, and a few SSC clerkships, but you're quibbling around the edges.)
3.) Minnesota is a HUGE public interest school. That's why we have so many joint JD/MPP's. Your grudging assumption is disrespectful to a large swath of students who enter law school with an actual plan to work PI. (Which by the way, is indicative of the broader point that I'll get to in a moment...)
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I included all PI jobs as "good outcomes." I'm not making a judgment about PI at all; I'm just trying to come up with the right number. Surely you can agree that at least some people who get PI didn't actually want PI and are just settling for it? But guess what, I included even those people as having "good outcomes." Not sure how this is a knock against me.
4.) Your ratio should have been using 212, not 205.
Nope, because 212 includes part-time jobs, which in my opinion are never "good outcomes."
And you're wrong that the vast majority of non-bar required jobs are classified as business, especially considering most of the business jobs are in-house counsel positions at companies like Cargill, Best Buy, and Target.
Again, anecdotes against statistics. You say the "vast majority," but where does that information come from? Surely the non-JD jobs come from somewhere, right? There are 27 jobs that don't require a JD. I doubt they exist in the "law firm" category, so where are they? They must be in the business category or the government category, so that's why I applied them there.
5.) You're also wrong about the academia jobs. It is not rare as you think for professors to start teaching directly out of law school, especially at some of the lower ranked law schools. I don't know the two who were placed for the 2010 class from which this data comes, but I do know that someone who graduated from 2009 is a now a prof at a fourth tier school in the upper Midwest. At any rate - you don't know their positions. They could have taken jobs in admissions, student services, etc that all pay well above 60K.
Quibbling around the margins. We're talking about 2 people here. You can have them. It doesn't change the overall number.
I have plenty of debt, and am perfectly happy with MY outcome from law school, as you seem to be as well. And that's great for the two of us. But most people (more than 50%) at my school, and I am willing to bet at UMN, are not happy with THEIR outcomes.
And my point is that I don't see that sentiment here. Perhaps everyone at UMN just hides it well, but I'm doubting that. And my point is, your willingness to bet on your assumptions are not a foundation for dispensing advice by way of numerical manipulation.
More anecdotes...and do you think the people who don't have jobs are eager for everyone to know they don't? Don't you think there's a heavy dose of (unwarranted) shame that goes with not being able to find a job?
I'm not sure what's wrong with that attitude, or why it's indicative of anything, let alone desperation. In fact I made an assumption that undercuts my own argument, and bolsters yours. You must agree with me that there are some people for whom PI is a legitimate goal going into law school, and some people who settle for PI when they can't find anything else. I've counted everyone in the PI category as the former (which gives the benefit of the doubt to the school, and to you) and none as the latter.
This gets to the broader point that I'm trying to make - which is that you presume that the vast majority of people enter law school with complete uncertainty as to what they want to go into, how much they want to make, what kind of debt load they're comfortable with, etc. While I'm not denying that such naivety is certainly pervasive, I think it is terribly misguided to make the assumption that the majority or all students are the same way. Thus, the underlying theme in all of your commentary (that everybody is "scrambling for something, anything") is what feeds the advice that you and so many other peddle on this forum. And I think that's truly saddening.
I didn't say anything about people entering with uncertainty. There are people (at every law school) who enter with a very specific idea of what they want to do (whatever it may be), but they CANNOT GET IT. Joe wants biglaw in NYC, but he can't find it. So what does he do? He ends up in the MSP public defender's office. But I don't know why you're arguing with me on this point, because I included Joe (and any others like him) as a "good outcome" person, when he almost certainly is not.
<snip>My point is this: stop dispensing purely subjective opinions as if they are fact.
I don't know how else to say this: I have not given a single subjective opinion in this thread, let alone a "purely" subjective one. I am trying to parse the ACTUAL EMPLOYMENT DATA from the UMN website. You are countering that data with your feeling about the "sentiment" at UMN, your personal job, the jobs of 4 of your friends, etc. Do you not understand the word subjective?

EDIT: I'm not having another quote-fest with you. It has become apparent to me that you are just defending your school because you go there; it's human nature to recoil when your personal decisions are questioned by others. I get that. And it's especially hard to see how bad the big picture is when your individual situation may have turned out great. But ask yourself this: do you really think that for the average/median person, going to a school like UMN or UA (or any other regional school) with no ties to the area is a good idea? Do you think the median kid at your school with 0 ties to the local area is happy with the $100k he dropped on tuition? The problem, of course, is hindsight is 20/20. And sure, if you know you want to be a PD, then go wherever and enjoy IBR & PSLF. But that's simply not the case for most people, and to act like that is the norm is delusional.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:53 am

MTBike wrote:The amount of criticism that gets dished out when someone uses one instance to represent a vast majority (in a positive light), then the pessimists go and do the exact same thing (negatively)? Fuckin astonishing.

Hypocrisy at its finest.


Damn dude you really don't get it. The reason I posted that is because the advice you are complaining about relates specifically to the guy who started this thread. If his two posts had demonstrated the kind of research MidwestJosh suggests many 0Ls do beforehand, the replies would have been much different.

When posters indicate they have done a fair amount of research on their own and have somewhat concrete career goals, the advice tends to be much more balanced.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby romothesavior » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:57 am

First of all, I cosign pretty much everything chiwachiwa said.

MidwestJosh wrote:While I have no doubt that many of the law school naysayers, which constitute a significant number of the regular commentators on this site, have it in their mind that they are helping - I'm trying to point out that all your really doing is killing dreams. For many people, they have it in their mind that they want to be a public defender or a human rights advocate, for example. Those people see forums like this and are told to back off of some of the best schools in the country for such areas because it's not a "T14 or TTT/full ride". That's not right. If those people fully understand that it means 10 years of public service for debt forgiveness, or living on a tight income for 15 years, that's their prerogative, as long as they fully understand those numbers. My point is this: stop dispensing purely subjective opinions as if they are fact.

Midwest Josh, I respect your opinion and while I disagree with some of the things you've said, I think you've had some informative posts ITT.

That said, I think you're making a few mistaken assumptions about what is being said here.

1) First, I don't think anyone is trying to kill anyone else's dream of being a lawyer (although for many people, that is probably the best thing that could happen for them). The message here is to go somewhere that aligns with career goals and is financially prudent. UMN is a good school. OP could do well there. But OP faces an uphill battle by attending UMN over options closer to home, or top school.

2) Great, you found some examples of people doing well ITT. There are just as many at the T20s like UMN who have had poor (or no) options for using their law degree.

3) No one ITT is saying that you should only go to a T14 or a TTT with a full ride. No idea where you got that idea from. Neither rad nor I go to a T14, and neither one of us has a full ride.

4) As far as the ties things go, no one is saying that lack of ties ties represent an automatic bar to getting a job. But when law school is already a risky proposition, it makes no sense to make it a riskier proposition by moving across the country to go to a law school whose strongest placement is in their home region. It is risky for anyone to spend six figures for a T20 law school; it is even more risky for someone with no ties whatsoever to the markets that the school places best in. There is nothing controversial about this.

5) Uh... what did your little screed about PI people have to do with anything? You think we don't get how IBR/LRAP work?

I think we're so far off on our basic assumptions about the current state of the job market and employment outcomes for recent grads/current students that continuing this back and forth is probably futile. I just wanted to give you some clarity about what it is the people on here are saying, because both you and MTBike are mischaracterizing it big time.

MTBike wrote:I've been trying to say this same shit for a month dude... trust me, they don't/won't/refuse to listen. They are negative people, and will continue to spew negativity in the few faces of reason. As much as I agree with you, and I simply cannot agree with you more than I do, your efforts to shed ideas in a positive light will be for nothing... as they will discount it.

While I have some respect for Midwest Josh here, I have none for you. You add nothing to these boards and your posts are just nothing but ad hominems and straw men built up with unwarranted assumptions about the people you're talking about. Your MO is to just call all the current 2Ls and 3Ls trolls and idiots and discount everything we say. When rad tried to discuss things rationally, you just blew him off and threw the troll tag around. For what? Because he gave honest straightforward answers you disagreed with? You like to call people trolls, but I am yet to see you make any attempt to engage people in reasonable dialogue since you joined.

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MTBike
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MTBike » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:02 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
MTBike wrote:The amount of criticism that gets dished out when someone uses one instance to represent a vast majority (in a positive light), then the pessimists go and do the exact same thing (negatively)? Fuckin astonishing.

Hypocrisy at its finest.


Damn dude you really don't get it. The reason I posted that is because the advice you are complaining about relates specifically to the guy who started this thread. If his two posts had demonstrated the kind of research MidwestJosh suggests many 0Ls do beforehand, the replies would have been much different.

When posters indicate they have done a fair amount of research on their own and have somewhat concrete career goals, the advice tends to be much more balanced.


Yeah I get that... but honestly, I doubt the responses would have been much different. There are tons of threads like this, and the responses are almost always the same as here. Its just the nature of TLS. I admit I misunderstood the intention of your post initially, and it makes sense now, but I think the thread has taken a turn for the worse... that is, its not just giving OP advice anymore.

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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MTBike » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:10 pm

Romothesavior... thats fuckin hilarious coming from you.

I've been on here for about a month now, and have seen absolutely NOTHING informative from you... Just because everyone of your posts is drenched with pessimistic bullshit doesn't mean its helping anyone, and your obviously making that assumption.

You're an asshole, you're not helping, you're just being an asshole.

At least Radlulz has something informative to say in his comments every now and then, they are very few and far between, but they do exist. My arguments have never been adhom's, just claiming they are is similar to just calling someone a troll when they aren't being one (which you just accused me of doing).

I have attempted to make similar arguments like Midwest in the past, but to no avail. Just because I haven't posted in depth arguments ITT like Midwest has should not discredit my understanding/beliefs. Like I said, i've attempted in the past and it doesn't penetrate past the thick shells of the brains of people like you... So I dont try anymore.

As I said, pick your battles, and this one is definitely not worth fighting. Have fun being an unhelpful asshole... hope that works out well for you.

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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby romothesavior » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:15 pm

I just reread my posts ITT. Please point to me where I was being an "unhelpful asshole."

Also, not seeing how my posts are drenched in "pessimistic bullshit."

It just sounds to me like your standard response to anyone who doesn't agree with you is to piss and moan and call names. That's cool dude. Hope that works out for you.

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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MTBike » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:21 pm

romothesavior wrote:I just reread my posts ITT. Please point to me where I was being an "unhelpful asshole."

Also, not seeing how my posts are drenched in "pessimistic bullshit."

It just sounds to me like your standard response to anyone who doesn't agree with you is to piss and moan and call names. That's cool dude. Hope that works out for you.


If you would've paid closer attention to my post, you would've realized I wasn't only talking about this thread. Aside from calling you an asshole, which I genuinly believe you enjoy being an online asshole, I dont "piss and moan and call people names".

This is getting out of hand, Radlulz said not to go to UMN because OP doesnt have any ties, I said if it is OP's best option then he/she should go there. Thats the only point I was initially trying to make, I disagreed with your "buddy", and have agreed with absolutely everything Midwest has said. (Which, in a way, he has been defending that view for a few pages now... yet I give nothing informative)

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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby goldenflash19 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:25 pm

MTBike wrote:My arguments have never been adhom's, just claiming they are is similar to just calling someone a troll when they aren't being one (which you just accused me of doing).


MTBike wrote:
sunynp wrote:Op- you might want to read prof campos blog post today. I'll copy and paste it later if no one gets to it first. About halfway down he analysis the Minnesota stats.


LOL there you go... drink the coolaid of Campos. :roll:


Why shouldn't we consider what Campos says? You never specified.

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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MTBike » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:27 pm

goldenflash19 wrote:
MTBike wrote:My arguments have never been adhom's, just claiming they are is similar to just calling someone a troll when they aren't being one (which you just accused me of doing).


MTBike wrote:
sunynp wrote:Op- you might want to read prof campos blog post today. I'll copy and paste it later if no one gets to it first. About halfway down he analysis the Minnesota stats.


LOL there you go... drink the coolaid of Campos. :roll:


Why shouldn't we consider what Campos says? You never specified.


I never said to not "consider it"... my point was to take it with a grain of salt. People have their own opinions on him, I was merely stating mine in a slightly sarcastic manner.

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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby top30man » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:29 pm

MTBike wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I just reread my posts ITT. Please point to me where I was being an "unhelpful asshole."

Also, not seeing how my posts are drenched in "pessimistic bullshit."

It just sounds to me like your standard response to anyone who doesn't agree with you is to piss and moan and call names. That's cool dude. Hope that works out for you.


If you would've paid closer attention to my post, you would've realized I wasn't only talking about this thread. Aside from calling you an asshole, which I genuinly believe you enjoy being an online asshole, I dont "piss and moan and call people names".

This is getting out of hand, Radlulz said not to go to UMN because OP doesnt have any ties, I said if it is OP's best option then he/she should go there. Thats the only point I was initially trying to make, I disagreed with your "buddy", and have agreed with absolutely everything Midwest has said. (Which, in a way, he has been defending that view for a few pages now... yet I give nothing informative)

You keep talking about how since it's OPs bet option he ought to go there. However, I think what people ITT have been trying to explain is that by no means does "best" option = "good" option. Since the Midwest and the south are known to be parochial, and both these schools place the majority of grads in state, it's not a smart option. Associate flight is a real issue, which is why most secondary markets are cautious to outsiders. In the secondary market I work in, associates either went to the local law schools, went to undergrad here, were born/raised here or have a spouse here long term. They may be couple of exceptions to this rule, but going to school planning to be an exception to the rule is not smart.

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MidwestJosh
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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MidwestJosh » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:30 pm

chiwachiwa: We're obviously passing in the night. There's a few times in your last response that you quoted me and attacked my language when I was actually using your language to point out its absurdity. In any event, I'll happily talk more about this, because you're missing my point, but I don't have the kind of time that this forum has taken from me the last 24 hours. I PMd you my phone - you're more than welcome to give me a call and we can bullshit about this in a manner that doesn't take so much damn time.

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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:30 pm

romothesavior wrote:1) First, I don't think anyone is trying to kill anyone else's dream of being a lawyer (although for many people, that is probably the best thing that could happen for them). The message here is to go somewhere that aligns with career goals and is financially prudent. UMN is a good school. OP could do well there. But OP faces an uphill battle by attending UMN over options closer to home, or top school.


This is the key. OP mentioned he wanted to be a business lawyer. I'm not sure how he defines it but that usually means biglaw which changes the calculus somewhat. If you are dead set on biglaw I would not take on +100K of debt for AL or MN right now.

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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby MTBike » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:32 pm

top30man wrote:You keep talking about how since it's OPs bet option he ought to go there. However, I think what people ITT have been trying to explain is that by no means does "best" option = "good" option. Since the Midwest and the south are known to be parochial, and both these schools place the majority of grads in state, it's not a smart option. Associate flight is a real issue, which is why most secondary markets are cautious to outsiders. In the secondary market I work in, associates either went to the local law schools, went to undergrad here, were born/raised here or have a spouse here long term. They may be couple of exceptions to this rule, but going to school planning to be an exception to the rule is not smart.

I dont know if you can effectively argue that it is a BAD option though... Unless I'm mistaken, OP never said he/she was opposed to working in the midwest. and what's to say OP doesn't develop some ties of his own while he's in Minneapolis? I dont think the "best" option for him would be to discredit UMN merely because of his/her lack of ties.

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Re: Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k)

Postby bk1 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:47 pm

MTBike wrote:I dont know if you can effectively argue that it is a BAD option though... Unless I'm mistaken, OP never said he/she was opposed to working in the midwest. and what's to say OP doesn't develop some ties of his own while he's in Minneapolis? I dont think the "best" option for him would be to discredit UMN merely because of his/her lack of ties.

Have you read any of chiwachiwa's posts ITT? He breaks down the statistics to find actual good outcomes. I'm actually more lenient than chiwachi and still find UMN's placement to be mediocre at best. Roughly 2/3 of their 2010 class had permanent employment. Roughly 2/3 of their 2010 class had full time, bar required employment. It is highly unlikely that those two sections completely overlap meaning that good outcomes (defined as permanent, full time, bar required jobs) probably went to about 60% of the class (or even less). Compound that with the fact that OP will struggle to find midwest employment because he will be trumped by UMNers with ties to the midwest and he will struggle to find NYC employment because he will be overshadowed by Fordham kids (and probably BU/BC/GW as well). I struggle to call a school that fails to place 1/3+ of its students a good option (and this doesn't even take into account the salaries that these people make).

Unless OP marries and has a family in law school, I don't see any ties developed during law school as able to trump the ties of midwest natives.




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