Bama U(25k) v Minnesota (25k) Forum

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Unless OP marries and has a family in law school, I don't see any ties developed during law school as able to trump the ties of midwest natives.

Great point.

[MTBike]

Have you read any of chiwachiwa's posts ITT? He breaks down the statistics to find actual good outcomes. I'm actually more lenient than chiwachi and still find UMN's placement to be mediocre at best. Roughly 2/3 of their 2010 class had permanent employment. Roughly 2/3 of their 2010 class had full time, bar required employment. It is highly unlikely that those two sections completely overlap meaning that good outcomes (defined as permanent, full time, bar required jobs) probably went to about 60% of the class (or even less). Compound that with the fact that OP will struggle to find midwest employment because he will be trumped by UMNers with ties to the midwest and he will struggle to find NYC employment because he will be overshadowed by Fordham kids (and probably BU/BC/GW as well). I struggle to call a school that fails to place 1/3+ of its students a good option (and this doesn't even take into account the salaries that these people make).

Unless OP marries and has a family in law school, I don't see any ties developed during law school as able to trump the ties of midwest natives.

Ok so do me a favor and compare something for me.... lets say, hypothetically, you have a student with no ties in the top 10% of his class, that is intent in practicing in Minneapolis. Compare that to a kid at the median with ties to the area. Your telling me that firms care more about ties than how well you do in school? Where is the line and how do they compare...

[bk1]

Ok so do me a favor and compare something for me.... lets say, hypothetically, you have a student with no ties in the top 10% of his class, that is intent in practicing in Minneapolis. Compare that to a kid at the median with ties to the area. Your telling me that firms care more about ties that how well you do in school? Where is the line and how do they compare...

Your hypothetical is stupid since you're assuming a certain grade percentile. I'm not saying whether prefer the high grade kid without ties or the median kid with ties because it's a moot point. Nobody knows what their grades will be, but as was pointed out on page 1, everybody knows what ties they have prior to law school and how much the market they are aiming for cares about ties. Non-natives are at a distinct disadvantage to natives and especially so in markets that care. With a 60%ish chance of being around median or below it, it seems foolish to place oneself at such a disadvantage because you cannot guarantee you will have the grades to overcome the disparity.

[chiwachiwa]

Have you read any of chiwachiwa's posts ITT? He breaks down the statistics to find actual good outcomes. I'm actually more lenient than chiwachi and still find UMN's placement to be mediocre at best. Roughly 2/3 of their 2010 class had permanent employment. Roughly 2/3 of their 2010 class had full time, bar required employment. It is highly unlikely that those two sections completely overlap meaning that good outcomes (defined as permanent, full time, bar required jobs) probably went to about 60% of the class (or even less). Compound that with the fact that OP will struggle to find midwest employment because he will be trumped by UMNers with ties to the midwest and he will struggle to find NYC employment because he will be overshadowed by Fordham kids (and probably BU/BC/GW as well). I struggle to call a school that fails to place 1/3+ of its students a good option (and this doesn't even take into account the salaries that these people make).

Unless OP marries and has a family in law school, I don't see any ties developed during law school as able to trump the ties of midwest natives.

Ok so do me a favor and compare something for me.... lets say, hypothetically, you have a student with no ties in the top 10% of his class, that is intent in practicing in Minneapolis. Compare that to a kid at the median with ties to the area. Your telling me that firms care more about ties than how well you do in school? Where is the line and how do they compare...

No one is saying that, and that's a pointless and unanswerable question. When someone is asking a "what school should I go to?" question, grades are entirely unknowable and so shouldn't factor into the equation. Grades should be assumed median. For the OP, the question then is: how does a median UMN or UA student fare when he has no ties to the geographic area where most students end up working? The answer is probably not very well, and that's demonstrated by the fact that somewhere in the neighborhood of 40% (on the pessimistic side) or 60% (on the optimistic side) have good outcomes coming from schools like those two. And if we assume that, on the whole, people with ties do better than people without ties (something I think all can agree on), the percentage of people without ties who have good outcomes is probably substantially lower than that.

[MTBike]

Ok so do me a favor and compare something for me.... lets say, hypothetically, you have a student with no ties in the top 10% of his class, that is intent in practicing in Minneapolis. Compare that to a kid at the median with ties to the area. Your telling me that firms care more about ties that how well you do in school? Where is the line and how do they compare...

Your hypothetical is stupid since you're assuming a certain grade percentile. I'm not saying whether prefer the high grade kid without ties or the median kid with ties because it's a moot point. Nobody knows what their grades will be, but as was pointed out on page 1, everybody knows what ties they have prior to law school. Non-natives are at a distinct disadvantage to natives. With a 60%ish chance of being around median or below it, it seems foolish to place oneself at such a disadvantage because you cannot guarantee you will have the grades to overcome the disparity.

Your hypothetical is stupid since you're assuming a certain grade percentile.

Isnt that the point of a hypothetical?

Nobody knows what their grades will be, but as was pointed out on page 1, everybody knows what ties they have prior to law school.

I have admitted that I understand this fact earlier in this thread... I was merely trying to compare the strength of ties.

Lets try that one more time...

[MTBike]

No one is saying that, and that's a pointless and unanswerable question. When someone is asking a "what school should I go to?" question, grades are entirely unknowable and so shouldn't factor into the equation. Grades should be assumed median. For the OP, the question then is: how does a median UMN or UA student fare when he has no ties to the geographic area where most students end up working? The answer is probably not very well, and that's demonstrated by the fact that somewhere in the neighborhood of 40% (on the pessimistic side) or 60% (on the optimistic side) have good outcomes coming from schools like those two. And if we assume that, on the whole, people with ties do better than people without ties (something I think all can agree on), the percentage of people without ties who have good outcomes is probably substantially lower than that.

Im merely trying to understand the strength of ties compared to the quality of grades when discussing employment...

[romothesavior]

Have you read any of chiwachiwa's posts ITT? He breaks down the statistics to find actual good outcomes. I'm actually more lenient than chiwachi and still find UMN's placement to be mediocre at best. Roughly 2/3 of their 2010 class had permanent employment. Roughly 2/3 of their 2010 class had full time, bar required employment. It is highly unlikely that those two sections completely overlap meaning that good outcomes (defined as permanent, full time, bar required jobs) probably went to about 60% of the class (or even less). Compound that with the fact that OP will struggle to find midwest employment because he will be trumped by UMNers with ties to the midwest and he will struggle to find NYC employment because he will be overshadowed by Fordham kids (and probably BU/BC/GW as well). I struggle to call a school that fails to place 1/3+ of its students a good option (and this doesn't even take into account the salaries that these people make).

Unless OP marries and has a family in law school, I don't see any ties developed during law school as able to trump the ties of midwest natives.

Ok so do me a favor and compare something for me.... lets say, hypothetically, you have a student with no ties in the top 10% of his class, that is intent in practicing in Minneapolis. Compare that to a kid at the median with ties to the area. Your telling me that firms care more about ties than how well you do in school? Where is the line and how do they compare...

I have answered this question more times than I care to count, and you obviously hate me for some reason (did I run your dog over or something?) and will likely scoff at whatever I say, but I'll try to answer it again.

Top 10% at a T20 is going to have options. Absolutely. Ties aren't like a trump card that outweigh grades, law review, work experience, and other important factors. No one has said that, is saying that, or (I hope) ever will say that. They simply make things easier for job hunters, especially when you move outside of the top of the class. People who are on the cusp of biglaw or other solid firms can benefit greatly from ties. Someone with top 25-30% grades who is is born and raised in St. Louis may still have a shot at biglaw in STL, whereas someone who is from NYC with those grades probably doesn't, for example. Ties also help a substantial amount for those interviewing at smaller firms. You have to convince them you want to stay, and have a solid reason for it. A Midwestern employer will naturally be skeptical of someone from the coasts looking to stay in the region, so you better have a good reason for it.

Top 10% with no ties (other than going to school in Minnesota) will probably have options in Minneapolis, if they can overcome the employer's skepticism that they actually want to stay there. Ties aren't a a deal-maker or deal-breaker. That's not the message at all. But they can change the game, and they are something you control going into school, so why not put them in your favor?

[romothesavior]

Ok so do me a favor and compare something for me.... lets say, hypothetically, you have a student with no ties in the top 10% of his class, that is intent in practicing in Minneapolis. Compare that to a kid at the median with ties to the area. Your telling me that firms care more about ties that how well you do in school? Where is the line and how do they compare...

Your hypothetical is stupid since you're assuming a certain grade percentile. I'm not saying whether prefer the high grade kid without ties or the median kid with ties because it's a moot point. Nobody knows what their grades will be, but as was pointed out on page 1, everybody knows what ties they have prior to law school and how much the market they are aiming for cares about ties. Non-natives are at a distinct disadvantage to natives and especially so in markets that care. With a 60%ish chance of being around median or below it, it seems foolish to place oneself at such a disadvantage because you cannot guarantee you will have the grades to overcome the disparity.

Hey bk, am I an asshole?

[Samara]

No one is saying that, and that's a pointless and unanswerable question. When someone is asking a "what school should I go to?" question, grades are entirely unknowable and so shouldn't factor into the equation. Grades should be assumed median. For the OP, the question then is: how does a median UMN or UA student fare when he has no ties to the geographic area where most students end up working? The answer is probably not very well, and that's demonstrated by the fact that somewhere in the neighborhood of 40% (on the pessimistic side) or 60% (on the optimistic side) have good outcomes coming from schools like those two.

This is the key point. Roughly speaking, people at or above median at UMN will get "good employment." If you assume you will be at median, which 0Ls should do, that means you'll be a marginal student for good employment. When choosing between the median student with ties and the median student without ties, the student with ties is going to be picked. Thus, someone without ties cannot reasonably assume good employment and should not attend UMN at such a high price.

It would make sense for OP to attend a school with similar placement where OP has ties at that price because OP could reasonably assume good employment. Attending at sticker would be riskier because OP could not necessarily assume employment that is good enough to reasonably pay off loans.

[sunynp]

Tl; dr

So after all that, as long as op is top 10% he will be fine? Lol.

[bk1]

Isnt that the point of a hypothetical?

I have admitted that I understand this fact earlier in this thread... I was merely trying to compare the strength of ties.

There is no definite answer here. Nobody knows the exact line and it likely varies from employer to employer and market to market. However, it is a guarantee that someone without ties will be behind someone who does have ties so it is foolish to need grades to overcome a disparity like that when grades cannot be guaranteed. The non-Chicago midwest (and heck even Chicago to a certain extent) is not like NYC and DC (or even LA), it isn't a destination spot where it's easy for everyone to articulate why they want to be there and the employers know that everyone wants to be there.

I could see a case for someone taking a school in a different region because it had good employment outcomes (e.g. Vandy) or because that person really knew they wanted to live there (though I'd be skeptical how someone without ties can be so sure that they want to live in a given region). This is not the case for OP because UMN has mediocre outcomes at best (not saying that it's any worse than other similarly ranked schools) and has no real specific reason for wanting to be in MN.

[MTBike]

I have answered this question more times than I care to count, and you obviously hate me for some reason (did I run your dog over or something?) and will likely scoff at whatever I say, but I'll try to answer it again.

Top 10% at a T20 is going to have options. Absolutely. Ties aren't like a trump card that outweigh grades, law review, work experience, and other important factors. No one has said that, is saying that, or (I hope) ever will say that. They simply make things easier for job hunters, especially when you move outside of the top of the class. People who are on the cusp of biglaw or other solid firms can benefit greatly from ties. Someone with top 25-30% grades who is is born and raised in St. Louis may still have a shot at biglaw in STL, whereas someone who is from NYC with those grades probably doesn't, for example. Ties also help a substantial amount for those interviewing at smaller firms. You have to convince them you want to stay, and have a solid reason for it. A Midwestern employer will naturally be skeptical of someone from the coasts looking to stay in the region, so you better have a good reason for it.

Top 10% with no ties (other than going to school in Minnesota) will probably have options in Minneapolis, if they can overcome the employer's skepticism that they actually want to stay there. Ties aren't a a deal-maker or deal-breaker. That's not the message at all. But they can change the game, and they are something you control going into school, so why not put them in your favor?

Romo, that was suprisingly helpful... thank you. I haven't seen a post from you explaining the parameters of ties, so i must've missed it.

EDIT: and yes... you did run over my dog, and you gave 0 fucks.

[romothesavior]

Isnt that the point of a hypothetical?

I have admitted that I understand this fact earlier in this thread... I was merely trying to compare the strength of ties.

There is no definite answer here. Nobody knows the exact line and it likely varies from employer to employer and market to market.

Very much so. For example, STL is hyper-insular and is skeptical of everyone, whereas I got an offer in KC without ever having stepped foot in the city until my CB. It seems like for some employers, they prefer you to be from the city itself or the immediately surrounding region. Others just want to see ties to the region generally (so the Midwest).

It also depends on the candidate. If you are just some rando from NYC looking for a job, that is almost never going to cut it. If you can articulate concrete reasons for why you want to stay in Minneapolis or Milwaukee or St. Louis or wherever, you might be able to convince them that you are committed to the firm and city.

[MTBike]

Isnt that the point of a hypothetical?

I have admitted that I understand this fact earlier in this thread... I was merely trying to compare the strength of ties.

There is no definite answer here. Nobody knows the exact line and it likely varies from employer to employer and market to market. However, it is a guarantee that someone without ties will be behind someone who does have ties so it is foolish to need grades to overcome a disparity like that when grades cannot be guaranteed. The non-Chicago midwest (and heck even Chicago to a certain extent) is not like NYC and DC (or even LA), it isn't a destination spot where it's easy for everyone to articulate why they want to be there and the employers know that everyone wants to be there.

I could see a case for someone taking a school in a different region because it had good employment outcomes (e.g. Vandy) or because that person really knew they wanted to live there (though I'd be skeptical how someone without ties can be so sure that they want to live in a given region). This is not the case for OP because UMN has mediocre outcomes at best (not saying that it's any worse than other similarly ranked schools) and has no real specific reason for wanting to be in MN.

Thank you... that seems like it plays as a detriment to people from, say, North Dakota... born and raised. What are they to do? (Assuming they dont crack the T20)

[bk1]

Thank you... that seems like it plays as a detriment to people from, say, North Dakota... born and raised. What are they to do? (Assuming they dont crack the T20)

It also hurts people from NYC/DC as well. As romo pointed out there are regions that see ties in a broader regional sense rather than city-specific. Someone from North Dakota would probably have the best chances if they went to a school that placed in the midwest (e.g. ND/WUSTL/UIUC/UMN/etc) and had specific reasons for targeting various cities throughout the midwest. Or the North Dakota person could go to school in a region that that cares less about ties (e.g. Fordham/GW/etc).

[Samara]

Thank you... that seems like it plays as a detriment to people from, say, North Dakota... born and raised. What are they to do? (Assuming they dont crack the T20)

You can always move to the city where you want to end up at and work there for a couple years. You'll be a stronger LS applicant and stronger at OCI.

[romothesavior]

I actually think UMN at a good price would be a solid option for a North Dakota native.

This ties thing is a bigger deal when you are coming from across the country, especially if you are from a popular destination market. A New Yorker, Californian, etc. is gonna have a hell of a lot tougher time getting a job in a secondary Midwestern market than someone from the Midwest. We don't take too kindly to their folk. But it is actually pretty understandable when you consider how much it costs to recruit, hire, and train an associate. Firms want assurances that their new attorneys aren't going to just bolt to NY, Boston, LA, D.C., etc. at the first opportunity.

As an aside, I think that's why people were also so against OP going to UMN ITT. He wants "business law" (aka primarily big firm work, which is hard to land at UMN... look at the NLJ data) and he is from the hottest "destination market" in the country. It's not like he was born and raised in Iowa and looking at UMN, he's from NY.

[MTBike]

I actually think UMN at a good price would be a solid option for a North Dakota native.

This ties thing is a bigger deal when you are coming from across the country, especially if you are from a popular destination market. A New Yorker, Californian, etc. is gonna have a hell of a lot tougher time getting a job in a secondary Midwestern market than someone from the Midwest. We don't take too kindly to their folk. But it is actually pretty understandable when you consider how much it costs to recruit, hire, and train an associate. Firms want assurances that their new attorneys aren't going to just bolt to NY, Boston, LA, D.C., etc. at the first opportunity.

As an aside, I think that's why people were also so against OP going to UMN ITT. He wants "business law" (aka primarily big firm work, which is hard to land at UMN... look at the NLJ data) and he is from the hottest "destination market" in the country. It's not like he was born and raised in Iowa and looking at UMN, he's from NY.

How strong of a tie is a wife/fiance? (in comparison to the "from the area" tie) Even if you arent from that area, would firms consider that as a reason to stay in an area? Assuming the fiance/wife has a job in said area... if this isnt a possible comparison just say so lol

Im just trying to get a better understanding of the whole "ties" thing... this is starting to become helpful.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

OP I don't know if you are still reading this, but Midwest Josh and MTbike are either trolling or they are irrationally biased. Josh said he goes to UMN... He also made up bunch of statistics how many students are from OOS and how many leave Minnesota. Super, but facts paint a different picture: there is no such thing as T20. ASU is 26 now. Cool. This is all meaningless.

I know someone from Oklahoma who transferred from UMN to OU law because she realized the hard way that these schools are actually peers! If you want to work in Oklahoma, go to OU. Want Minnesota, go to UMN. Both schools have horrible employment stats-- 65% of UMN actually became attorneys 9 months out. I think the number is actually slightly higher at OU. I was helping someone out with a decision to attend Texas Tech the other day... 71% of Tech became real attorneys 9 months out. Midwest josh will never believe it because "Tech is a TTT!!!", but Tech and UMN have way more in common that UMN and Cornell. For all practical purposes, they are peer schools. Want to work in Abilene? Go to Tech, not UMN. Do UMN grads make more in the private sector than Tech grads. Yes, but it is also a hell of a lot cheaper to live in Abilene than the Twin Cities. Of course I'm not saying there aren't differences between UMN and Tech. I am saying that for practical purposes--considerations about what the vast majority of grads from each school will actually do--they are peers. Minn may take all splitters/reverse splitters and do everything it can to game the rankings (25% lsat is a 157, 75% lsat is equal to median LSAT%), but Minn grads will struggle to find work in Minnesota, just like Tech grads will struggle to find work in Texas.

MTbike's first post was telling-- don't go to a top twenty school because you don't have ties? ha preposterous! (paraphrasing..) No matter what the USNEWS magazine says, Minn is not a prestigious school. This doesn't mean that it is not a fine law school; it will not get you a job in another state. You may, of course, go to UMN and get a job in another state. That would be because of your skills, your winning personality, your eagerness to move and ability to adapt, your decent grades, etc. People from Tech sometimes go work in D.C. Is Tech Portable? No, outside of a few schools-- which are really portable only for big law, and then still usually rely on alumni connections--there are no portable schools, only portable people.

OP don't get trapped by these law schools. They are great schools, but unless you are somehow 100% confident that you are portable, opportunities from these schools will be in the state they are located in. If you decide on one of these schools, I would pick UMN but not because of the few spots it is ahead of Alabama in the fairytale rankings. I would imagine Alabama is horrible insular. If you speak like a northerner where I'm from in Oklahoma, you will always be an outsider. Alabama is probably even worse. Maybe Minnesota is really bad too.. I don't know but at least the twin cities are large and diverse. Someone from Minnesota can chime in on that.

[bk1]

How strong of a tie is a wife/fiance? (in comparison to the "from the area" tie) Even if you arent from that area, would firms consider that as a reason to stay in an area? Assuming the fiance/wife has a job in said area... if this isnt a possible comparison just say so lol

I think most employers would consider it a strong tie. Might be an issue if the SO is a non-native in a more temporary position (e.g. school as opposed to permanent job, or if the job is at Starbucks).

[MTBike]

MTbike's first post was telling-- don't go to a top twenty school because you don't have ties? ha preposterous! (paraphrasing..) [/i].

Probably bad phrasing in my part... Just meant that immediatly shutting down the idea of UMN due to a lack of ties is a bad idea. My bad.

[MTBike]

How strong of a tie is a wife/fiance? (in comparison to the "from the area" tie) Even if you arent from that area, would firms consider that as a reason to stay in an area? Assuming the fiance/wife has a job in said area... if this isnt a possible comparison just say so lol

I think most employers would consider it a strong tie. Might be an issue if the SO is a non-native in a more temporary position (e.g. school as opposed to permanent job, or if the job is at Starbucks).

Huh.... good to know.

[romothesavior]

How strong of a tie is a wife/fiance? (in comparison to the "from the area" tie) Even if you arent from that area, would firms consider that as a reason to stay in an area? Assuming the fiance/wife has a job in said area... if this isnt a possible comparison just say so lol

I think most employers would consider it a strong tie.

Based on my limited anecdotal observations, I'm inclined to agree. If you can get your foot in the door for a screener, I think being able to say, "My spouse and I bought a house and she has a great job that she loves, and we love the city and want to settle down here" or something along those lines is huge.

Pretty much every single person I know who landed a mid/big firm job here is 1) from STL or a nearby location, 2) has a concrete reason (like a spouse) for staying here, or 3) is tip top (like top 5-10%) of the class with law review. I realize our city is probably far stricter about ties than most, but I think you'll find that this is the case in most secondary cities.

[bk1]

How strong of a tie is a wife/fiance? (in comparison to the "from the area" tie) Even if you arent from that area, would firms consider that as a reason to stay in an area? Assuming the fiance/wife has a job in said area... if this isnt a possible comparison just say so lol

I think most employers would consider it a strong tie. Might be an issue if the SO is a non-native in a more temporary position (e.g. school as opposed to permanent job, or if the job is at Starbucks).

Huh.... good to know.

It's about articulating good reasons to be there that convince the firm/employer you will stay. If you're a native then it's easy (employers will just assume that you like it since you've lived there a ton). Also as a native it's easy to articulate what you like about the area since you've lived there and can be specific whereas non-natives will find it harder to articulate those specifics. "My SO is here and we want to settle down as a family" is good, but that would be undercut if the SO just moved there and is working in a temporary job or is in a school program where most grads leave (meaning he/she is more likely to bolt with you in tow).

Keep in mind that this doesn't really apply to your average job. As romo pointed out it costs employers to train new attorneys since they know nothing. On the other hand the Milwaukee Starbucks probably doesn't care as much since its employees are transient anyways and it takes all of 30 minutes to train them.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

How strong of a tie is a wife/fiance? (in comparison to the "from the area" tie) Even if you arent from that area, would firms consider that as a reason to stay in an area? Assuming the fiance/wife has a job in said area... if this isnt a possible comparison just say so lol

I think most employers would consider it a strong tie. Might be an issue if the SO is a non-native in a more temporary position (e.g. school as opposed to permanent job, or if the job is at Starbucks).

I really agree with this. I have a great other half and she is a real asset in interviews. I think it shows that I'm mature and ready to settle down. We chose x part of the country because it is a great place to live is more persuasive than I chose x part of the country.