Please help me decide!

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Please help me decide!

Washington & Lee (15k/year)
15
22%
William and Mary (12k/year)
12
17%
Maryland (no financial info yet)
0
No votes
Cardozo (18k/year)
22
32%
Temple (7.5k/year)
1
1%
Brooklyn (30k/year)
9
13%
St. John's (full ride)
10
14%
 
Total votes: 69

JuniorMint
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Please help me decide!

Postby JuniorMint » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:57 pm

Hi everyone.

This is my first post, although I've spent hours pouring over this site since August. I've done just about as much research as I can, and I'm still having a really difficult time choosing a school from the options I have. I'd like to have it narrowed down to at most three by the end of this week, because I need some time to make a few visits and lobby for more financial aid. I live in New York, and I would ideally like to practice here. I'm really interested in health law, and I would like to be at a school where I would have at least a remote shot at biglaw. Right now I feel like none of my options have a good combination of what I am looking for in terms of price, location, and job prospects.

FYI, I've already eliminated a few schools (Hofstra, Villanova, Connecticut) and am on a few waitlists (BU, Wake Forest), and I have yet to hear from a few schools (BC, Fordham, Seton Hall). I will not be retaking/sitting the cycle out (I've already taken the test twice and taken a year off, and I am ready to start law school in the fall).

Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!!

TLSwag
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby TLSwag » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:05 pm

JuniorMint wrote:Hi everyone.

This is my first post, although I've spent hours pouring over this site since August. I've done just about as much research as I can, and I'm still having a really difficult time choosing a school from the options I have. I'd like to have it narrowed down to at most three by the end of this week, because I need some time to make a few visits and lobby for more financial aid. I live in New York, and I would ideally like to practice here. I'm really interested in health law, and I would like to be at a school where I would have at least a remote shot at biglaw. Right now I feel like none of my options have a good combination of what I am looking for in terms of price, location, and job prospects.

FYI, I've already eliminated a few schools (Hofstra, Villanova, Connecticut) and am on a few waitlists (BU, Wake Forest), and I have yet to hear from a few schools (BC, Fordham, Seton Hall). I will not be retaking/sitting the cycle out (I've already taken the test twice and taken a year off, and I am ready to start law school in the fall).

Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!!


First of all - Have you tried leveraging your other offers to get more scholarship funding? (E.G. your Brooklyn offer absolutely warrants an increased scholarship at Cardozo & I know from personal experience, they are pretty receptive to such requests although done on a case by case basis). If you wanna know more, PM me about that. If you want Big Law in NYC, I would have a hard time justifying any school other then Fordham (if you are accepted) or Cardozo/Brooklyn (pretty similar placement). That could be a decision that comes down to your willingness to risk for better shot at BigLaw and your personal situation with regards to financing law school. Fordham places about 25-28% in NLJ250 vs. 12.5% to Cardozo. Btw - I must have similar stats to you.

EDIT: I voted for Cardozo for now (because your still pending at Fordham/BC), but that is in hopes you can have some successful scholly $ negotiation; if not I think you gotta choose Brooklyn over Cardozo. Too much difference in debt vs. same employment prospects. If you want NYC, you should not be considering UMD, Temple, or W&L. St. John's with the full ride is somewhat enticing, but your shots at BigLaw would be abismal. No reason to even think about Seton Hall unless you are offered a full ride (worse placement then Brooklyn & Cardozo)

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spleenworship
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby spleenworship » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:47 pm

If I could re-vote, I would vote for Dozo. Sorry, didn't read the OP before voting. My bad.

JuniorMint
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby JuniorMint » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:24 am

TLSwag, your post was really helpful. I had the same thoughts about using my offer from Brooklyn to leverage Cardozo, but I didn't want to talk to them about financial aid before I was certain they were one of my top options. I'll probably get to work on that today. I noticed that you didn't mention William and Mary in terms of NYC job prospects. Do they generally do better than some of the other southern schools you listed? It's hard to ignore how much better of a reputation William and Mary seems to have in comparison with the New York schools I got into. I'd love to talk to you more about this, especially since you mentioned you may be in a similar situation?

Also, just found out I didn't get any money from Maryland, so they're off the table. It's not even worth trying for more money from them at this point, since I have better options.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:28 am

Too early since you haven't heard yet from BC, Fordham & Seton Hall. Also need information re: scholarship retention stipulations.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby Doorkeeper » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:55 am

None of these options are very appealing if you want a good shot at NYC biglaw. If you're ok with Boston, I would only consider BU/BC with scholarships if you're able to get off the WL.

You could possibly use the Brooklyn or St. Johns scholarships to get more money out of Cardozo. Cardozo with a 25-30k scholarship should be doable.

JuniorMint
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby JuniorMint » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:51 pm

I'm actually at work, so I don't have my award letters in front of me, but I believe the offers from St. John's, Brooklyn, and Cardozo had top 40% stipulations. All of the rest either had lesser stips or none at all. To be completely honest with you, I'm not very concerned with them. I expect to work hard and do well in law school.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:55 pm

Nobody attends law school expecting or intending to be in the lower 60% of their class, but 60% end up there.

You should be concerned with scholarship stipulations both as a potential future cost & during scholarship negotiations.

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spleenworship
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby spleenworship » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:16 pm

JuniorMint wrote:I'm actually at work, so I don't have my award letters in front of me, but I believe the offers from St. John's, Brooklyn, and Cardozo had top 40% stipulations. All of the rest either had lesser stips or none at all. To be completely honest with you, I'm not very concerned with them. I expect to work hard and do well in law school.


The bolded is an awful statement.

Hard work has only a slight correlation to grades.

66% of people fail to get into the top third, and all (EVERY SINGLE ONE) of them is very smart and hard working.

Do not expect anything other than median.

TLSwag
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby TLSwag » Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:40 pm

JuniorMint wrote:TLSwag, your post was really helpful. I had the same thoughts about using my offer from Brooklyn to leverage Cardozo, but I didn't want to talk to them about financial aid before I was certain they were one of my top options. I'll probably get to work on that today. I noticed that you didn't mention William and Mary in terms of NYC job prospects. Do they generally do better than some of the other southern schools you listed? It's hard to ignore how much better of a reputation William and Mary seems to have in comparison with the New York schools I got into. I'd love to talk to you more about this, especially since you mentioned you may be in a similar situation?

Also, just found out I didn't get any money from Maryland, so they're off the table. It's not even worth trying for more money from them at this point, since I have better options.


I'd be happy to explain to you how I successfully negotiated my scholarship if you want to PM me about that. It will definitely be doable and you should do it ASAP, regardless of whether it is a top option for you. It just unfolds options and trust me, they are very interested and flexible to the idea of opening up doors for candidates they deem worthy. There is no downside to asking, ever.

I agree with eliminating UMD, I applied and never considered it. It's employment prospects are mediocre at best, and who the fuck wants to live in baltimore all their life. haha just my 2cents. But with regards to W&M, to be honest, I don't know TOO much about their placement. That being said, I'm sure overall they enjoy better placement then Cardozo/Brooklyn, however for NYC BigLaw, i HIGHLY doubt it. I'm sure people would recommend it as a less risky option, but if you know you want NYC, it's more risky. If you are not sure about NYC, it might be a good option. But, on that note, they definitely do not place better then Fordham. To give you an idea (off 2011 numbers - I think this year is a better basis for placement research), as I said Fordham placed 26%, Cardozo placed 12.5%, and I just looked up W&M - they placed 15-16% in BigLaw. I just would argue that W&M's 16% was a little all over the place, and only the top guns probably got NYC. At Cardozo/Fordham, virtually all their placement in BigLaw goes to NYC, for obvious reasons.

I'd love to shoot the shit with you about my situation, which is definitely comprable in numerous facets, so you should definitely PM me.

JuniorMint
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby JuniorMint » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:40 am

Just a couple of updates...Cardozo has increased my financial aid package, making just as affordable as Brooklyn. Also, I've been waitlisted at Fordham. Still haven't heard from BC or Seton Hall.

I just wanted to see if anyone has anymore input for me since I've had these new developments.

Also, I was wondering if anyone thinks it would be worth trying to talk either of the southern schools into giving me a little more money? I realize that this will be difficult since both schools are ranked considerably higher than the other options I have. However, I was thinking I could be honest with them and say that placement into the NY market is so low at both of these schools that I would only consider them if they made me an offer that beats those of Cardozo and Brooklyn. Does this sound remotely reasonable?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

AlexGrace
Posts: 58
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:49 pm

Re: Please help me decide!

Postby AlexGrace » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:13 pm

Pick a NY school (I'd probably go with Cardozo) and ride Fordham's waitlist. Stay in touch with the admissions office, and when they call you a week before school starts, switch on over to Fordham. I know someone who did this last year and he is very happy. :)

I also know several people who are very happy at Cardozo. They are also on a scholarship and also very smart/hardworking, so just be careful with those stips... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/busin ... .html?_r=1

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clarion
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby clarion » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:42 pm

JuniorMint wrote:Just a couple of updates...Cardozo has increased my financial aid package, making just as affordable as Brooklyn. Also, I've been waitlisted at Fordham. Still haven't heard from BC or Seton Hall.

I just wanted to see if anyone has anymore input for me since I've had these new developments.

Also, I was wondering if anyone thinks it would be worth trying to talk either of the southern schools into giving me a little more money? I realize that this will be difficult since both schools are ranked considerably higher than the other options I have. However, I was thinking I could be honest with them and say that placement into the NY market is so low at both of these schools that I would only consider them if they made me an offer that beats those of Cardozo and Brooklyn. Does this sound remotely reasonable?

Thanks in advance for any advice.


I think your decision to ask the other southern schools for more money is perhaps reasonable, but unnecessary. To mirror what someone else said before, there's really little to no reason that you should go to any of them over Cardozo or Brooklyn if you KNOW that you want NYC biglaw. Generally the chances for NYC biglaw go T14 --> Fordham --> Cardozo/(Brooklyn) --> everyone else. Reason being that outside of the T14, schools become increasingly more regional. So although W&L or W&M might seem more appealing than T2s like Cardozo and Brooklyn, in actuality they won't really work to your advantage.

*At least that's my understanding.

Additionally, I agree with the person above to try everything you can to get off that Fordham wl while committing to Cardozo in the meantime. Send in LOCI(s) to make sure they know that they are your first choice. Etc. Good luck! :)

JuniorMint
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby JuniorMint » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:03 pm

Thank you all for the advice - you've been really helpful. I just have two more questions I hope you can help me with--

1) I now have 40k/year from Brooklyn and 28k/year from Cardozo. I know people tend to favor Cardozo because it is generally regarded to have a slight edge over Brooklyn, but is this scholarship gap enough to tip the scales in Brooklyn's favor?

2) I just heard from Seton Hall - admitted with a 35k/year scholly. Should I consider this option at all?

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spleenworship
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby spleenworship » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:26 pm

JuniorMint wrote:Thank you all for the advice - you've been really helpful. I just have two more questions I hope you can help me with--

1) I now have 40k/year from Brooklyn and 28k/year from Cardozo. I know people tend to favor Cardozo because it is generally regarded to have a slight edge over Brooklyn, but is this scholarship gap enough to tip the scales in Brooklyn's favor?

2) I just heard from Seton Hall - admitted with a 35k/year scholly. Should I consider this option at all?


I forget... What were the stips? Hard to read thread on iPhone

JuniorMint
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby JuniorMint » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:34 pm

I originally posted that they were top 40%, but they're actually top 80% for both Cardozo and Brooklyn. I was looking at old information.

t14fanboy
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby t14fanboy » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:36 pm

Dozo.

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spleenworship
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby spleenworship » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:38 pm

Then personally I'd take Brooklyn. Maybe a NYC poster would have a more informed position however.

lawstudent06789
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby lawstudent06789 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:44 pm

In terms of Brooklyn v. Cardozo - I'm in practically the same boat as you (42k v 30k). I want to live and practice in NY. I'm choosing Brooklyn for three reasons: $36,000 cheaper over three years; older reputation/greater alumni network than Cardozo; and, both schools have comparable academic programs and opportunities.

I also have a free place to stay for at least the first year in Manhattan.

Hope this helps.

Only addition: You can appeal your Seton Hall scholarship for more - I think Health Law is somewhat of a specialty of theirs. I don't think you should take Seton Hall off the table.

TLSwag
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby TLSwag » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:30 pm

JuniorMint wrote:Hi everyone.

This is my first post, although I've spent hours pouring over this site since August. I've done just about as much research as I can, and I'm still having a really difficult time choosing a school from the options I have. I'd like to have it narrowed down to at most three by the end of this week, because I need some time to make a few visits and lobby for more financial aid. I live in New York, and I would ideally like to practice here. I'm really interested in health law, and I would like to be at a school where I would have at least a remote shot at biglaw.
eldeadtone wrote:
Only addition: You can appeal your Seton Hall scholarship for more - I think Health Law is somewhat of a specialty of theirs. I don't think you should take Seton Hall off the table.


OP may have indicated an interest in health law but clearly states he wants a remote chance at BigLaw and implies throughout this thread he wants a school offering the most opportunities for NYC practice. Seton Hall did not offer as much as Brooklyn - a school that by no means excels at private NYC firm placement, but definitely enjoys significantly better statistics then SH.

And how many times does it have to be preached that US news ranking, ESPECIALLY their specialty rankings don't mean shit?!? E.g. Cardozo is ranked top 10 for IP programs, yet only a fool would think Dozo provides more IP Big Law opportunities then say, Fordham (well behind in IP rankings).

JuniorMint - it may be worth another negotiation email to see if SH would go full tuition, but even in that case, it's hard to justify it over Brooklyn's offer. SH = shit hein :P

lawstudent06789
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby lawstudent06789 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:07 pm

TLSwag: Like yourself, I suggested that Juniormint barter for more money at SH. Further, a "remote" shot at biglaw isn't much of a qualification. SH, STJ, plenty of schools offer a remote shot. I also didn't mention any rankings. I just know that there is a community at SH devoted to health law. Generally common interests lead to connections. Finally, this was my opinion and suggestion to Juniormint as someone in a similar position (I also have full ride from STJ and 35k from SH), and I made it clear that I'm choosing Brooklyn.

But thank you for your valuable insight.

TLSwag
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby TLSwag » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:12 am

eldeadtone wrote:TLSwag: Like yourself, I suggested that Juniormint barter for more money at SH. Further, a "remote" shot at biglaw isn't much of a qualification. SH, STJ, plenty of schools offer a remote shot. I also didn't mention any rankings. I just know that there is a community at SH devoted to health law. Generally common interests lead to connections. Finally, this was my opinion and suggestion to Juniormint as someone in a similar position (I also have full ride from STJ and 35k from SH), and I made it clear that I'm choosing Brooklyn.

But thank you for your valuable insight.


Not sure if that is sarcastic or not but I feel involved in this discussion as well, we are all in extremely similar situations. I received 35K a year from SH and I have ruled it out. I have truly done an exhausting amount of research on employment placement and that school is way riskier then Dozo (30k as well! haha)/BLS (32.5k pending negotiation) which not to mention pose immense risks in themselves. I am riding out some WL's and 100 percent retaking in june (reapply if I hit 170), but I need to pay a seat deposit and I chose Cardozo. Depending if Brooklyn ups me to over 40k that could change because i agree with 2 of your reasons for choosing BLS:

1) cheaper COA is worth it in the case because
2) both schools offer similar opportunities

But your point about the older reputation, more alumni = placement advantage argument is lacking research. They may enjoy similar opportunities overall but Cardozo has a pretty statistically significant edge for Big Law placement (of course all proportional to the low odds from either)
-->places at least 12% to NLJ250 (going off an average of last 3 years - this number is even higher), while Brooklyn has failed to reach 10% in the past 3 years

I'm not saying it's by much but it is definitely existent. And yes I agree the cost differences are not worth it given that. But it is something to think about. Unless BLS offers me basically full tuition, ill deposit on the 3/4 dozo happily.
Last edited by TLSwag on Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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seancris
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby seancris » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:15 am

What are your numbers?

TLSwag
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby TLSwag » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:11 am

seancris wrote:What are your numbers?


How are numbers relevant to the advice OP is seeking, re-read the topic homie

lawstudent06789
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Re: Please help me decide!

Postby lawstudent06789 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:25 pm

TLSwag: I apologize for the sarcasm. I tried negotiating with BLS for scholly up from 32 - they said no. However, 2 days later I randomly received an email saying they bumped up my scholly to 42k.. so if you haven't yet, I would definitely try to negotiate. I included the alumni/reputation thing because I have already met multiple BLS grads that have a weird loyalty to BLS - they all think I should go there. I'm not choosing BLS based on their biased opinions, but I do count them as alumni that might serve as possible connections/job offers ( I'm currently interning for one). I think alumni/connections are a real factor in the field of law.. and the thousands of BLS grads practicing in NY seem to offer an edge over DOZO in that respect. I agree that this doesn't have any effect in terms of biglaw.. but since that is a small chance for all of us anyway.. alumni/connections is a practical backup plan in my opinion.




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