Are T10s worth the debt?

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GoldenRetriever1988
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Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby GoldenRetriever1988 » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:31 pm

I've been reading about the "law school crisis" and that the legal market is over-saturated. I plan on applying to Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Michigan, and Virginia for law school (I have the numbers for UM and UVA, maybe YSH) Are those schools worth the debt? Do Michigan and Virginia grads have trouble getting great PI jobs?

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bk1
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby bk1 » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:36 pm

It depends. There is a lot higher risk going to a T14 at sticker compared to taking a lower ranked school with money, but there is also a larger reward at higher ranked schools as well. Whether you should go depends on your goals and your comfort level regarding risk/debt.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Tom Joad » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:39 pm

There are lots of relevant variables. For example: do you have any undergrad debt? Do you have other career options? Are you a splitter? Do you want to look in the mirror every morning knowing you go to Michigone?

duckmoney
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby duckmoney » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:58 pm

From a T10 (and especially a T6, and really especially a T3), you have a very good chance of being able get a job at a large law firm that pays six figures - most likely one that pays $160k in New York City.

There's obviously significant risk that you won't happen, but if you know what you're doing at all and make some attempt to follow TLS advice then your chance is quite a bit better than 50/50.

Do you want that job and the future opportunities that come with it? If so, I'd say a T10 is probably worth the debt. You probably won't make partner, and your income will probably not stay that high for your whole life, but if you really want to be a lawyer and want a decent salary and your current profession doesn't pay nearly as well, then yes, it's probably worth it.

If you already have a degree where you do something that you decently enjoy that pays decently well, then no, probably not worth it.

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rayiner
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby rayiner » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:14 am

Are those schools worth the debt? Do Michigan and Virginia grads have trouble getting great PI jobs?


It depends. Hiring is back up to the point where the majority of people at T14's (T13's?) can get a big firm job if they want one. For C/O 2013 at NU (the only school I have first-hand experience with), I'd say 4/5 of the people who wanted a big firm job got one. The numbers should be similar at Michigan and Virginia.

That said, there are no public interest jobs. None. DOJ cut their honors hiring to half the usual size. Most of the other Federal agencies are on hiring freezes. The states are totally not hiring because of their budget/debt situation. The super elite PI organizations seem to still be hiring people, but getting those is an up hill battle anywhere, especially outside of HYS.

People on this board focus on how bad the situation is for big law hiring, but big law has recovered to a large extent. PI hiring, on the other hand, got decimated by the recession and hasn't recovered at all.

indo
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby indo » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:16 am

bk1 wrote:It depends. There is a lot higher risk going to a T14 at sticker compared to taking a lower ranked school with money, but there is also a larger reward at higher ranked schools as well. Whether you should go depends on your goals and your comfort level regarding risk/debt.


+ 1

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Br3v
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Br3v » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:17 am

So this is where it all started lol

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fanmingrui
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby fanmingrui » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:19 am

Br3v wrote:So this is where it all started lol

+1. Enjoying the meltdown on his/her other thread.

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Br3v
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Br3v » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:22 am

I was surprised it started with a legitimate question. I'm curious as to where the specific switch from curious to wanting to take on the world happened

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StarLightSpectre
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby StarLightSpectre » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:31 am

Br3v wrote:I was surprised it started with a legitimate question. I'm curious as to where the specific switch from curious to wanting to take on the world happened



It all seemed so innocent in the beginning. Who knew it would come to this.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:41 am

Br3v wrote:I was surprised it started with a legitimate question. I'm curious as to where the specific switch from curious to wanting to take on the world happened


Looks like the Joadster set things ablaze.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:48 am

funny how people who don't even go to T10s answered this thread talking about T14s

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Br3v
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Br3v » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:50 am

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:funny how people who don't even go to T10s answered this thread talking about T14s


If you are volunteering to be next for the beat down check out other thread.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:51 am

Br3v wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:funny how people who don't even go to T10s answered this thread talking about T14s


If you are volunteering to be next for the beat down check out other thread.


What other thread?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:52 am

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:funny how people who don't even go to T10s answered this thread talking about T14s


Hardcore Northwestern burn.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:52 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:funny how people who don't even go to T10s answered this thread talking about T14s


Hardcore Northwestern burn.


Well I mean, the OP wasn't even considering applying to NU or any other non-T10.

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Br3v
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Br3v » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:54 am

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Br3v wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:funny how people who don't even go to T10s answered this thread talking about T14s


If you are volunteering to be next for the beat down check out other thread.


What other thread?


Why...something....pompous....something...t14

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rayiner
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby rayiner » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:05 am

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:funny how people who don't even go to T10s answered this thread talking about T14s


Hardcore Northwestern burn.


Well I mean, the OP wasn't even considering applying to NU or any other non-T10.


Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:funny how people who don't even go to T10s answered this thread talking about T14s


Hardcore Northwestern burn.


Well I mean, the OP wasn't even considering applying to NU or any other non-T10.


I mentioned NU because I can give first-hand information about hiring there. The information should be equally applicable to Virginia and Michigan. MVDN have shockingly similar hiring statistics (http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520).

The relevant groupings for hiring are T6 (T6 + Penn for NYC) and (T14 - GULC). I don't know why you'd think a round number on the USNWR (which are transient anyway--NU has been in the "T10" for half the years of the last decade) would be relevant.
Last edited by rayiner on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:07 am

rayiner wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:funny how people who don't even go to T10s answered this thread talking about T14s


Hardcore Northwestern burn.


Well I mean, the OP wasn't even considering applying to NU or any other non-T10.


Julio_El_Chavo wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:funny how people who don't even go to T10s answered this thread talking about T14s


Hardcore Northwestern burn.


Well I mean, the OP wasn't even considering applying to NU or any other non-T10.


I mentioned NU because I can give first-hand information about hiring there. The information should be equally applicable to Virginia and Michigan. MVDN have shockingly similar hiring statistics (http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520).

The relevant groupings for hiring are T6 (T6 + Penn for NYC) and (T14 - GULC). Round numbers on USNWR are meaningless.


There are material differences between Virginia and NU. Article III clerkship placement, for example.

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rayiner
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby rayiner » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:30 am

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:There are material differences between Virginia and NU. Article III clerkship placement, for example.


The differences in clerkship hiring in that range of schools is quite marginal (average over the last several years has been about 10% clerking at NU versus 12-13% at Michigan/Virginia), and heavily influenced by individual preferences. NU students are older on average, more married than average, and the school has a big chunk of the class (10-12%) that are JD-MBA's. All three demographics are less willing to spend a year clerking. I know lot's of people who have the grades for an Article III clerkship who didn't even apply because they're pushing 30 and don't want to spend a year clerking. As a result, NU tends to have more people go straight into big law: http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... tatistics/.

EDIT: Virginia does have a notable edge in feeder COA and SCOTUS clerkships. If you happen to be one of the 10 people in the school for which that is relevant, take that into account.

Also, to avoid sounding like an NU troll, I'd point out that Duke (also outside the "T10") sent about as many people into Article III clerkships for C/O 2010 as Virginia did into any clerkship.
Last edited by rayiner on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:40 am

Rayiner, this is slightly off-topic, but from what I have seen you are very knowledgable about hiring practices for schools. Just curious how far below median firms will dip for schools like MVDN. How much is the difference between this and a CCN?

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:40 am

rayiner wrote:
Julio_El_Chavo wrote:There are material differences between Virginia and NU. Article III clerkship placement, for example.


The differences in clerkship hiring in that range of schools is quite marginal (average over the last several years has been about 10% clerking at NU versus 12-13% at Michigan/Virginia), and heavily influenced by individual preferences. NU students are older on average, more married than average, and the school has a big chunk of the class (10-12%) that are JD-MBA's. All three demographics are less willing to spend a year clerking. I know lot's of people who have the grades for an Article III clerkship who didn't even apply because they're pushing 30 and don't want to spend a year clerking. As a result, NU tends to have more people go straight into big law: http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... tatistics/.

EDIT: Virginia does have a notable edge in feeder COA and SCOTUS clerkships. If you happen to be one of the 10 people in the school for which that is relevant, take that into account.


I was basing my statement off of NU's self-reported clerkship info: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/

It looks like, at best, 8% got Article III clerkships from those numbers (and the number for straight-out-of-law-school applicants is probably lower because it includes alumni who are more likely to get Art III clerkships; so I'd say 7% doesn't look too unrealistic for straight out of law school from these numbers). The 12-13 percent figure is definitely for students coming straight out of UVA law school (not including alumni). I think almost doubling the percentage of the class that gets Article III clerkships is a significant difference between UVA and NU. But people can make up their own minds.

Also, the most important part of the USNWR rankings, imo, are the Lawyer/Judges rankings and UVA is in a separate class of law schools than NU when it comes to these rankings (I believe UVA is consistently at 4.6/5 and NU is down around 4/5).
Last edited by Julio_El_Chavo on Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:51 am, edited 3 times in total.

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dproduct
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby dproduct » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:46 am

Wow... less then 4 hours for a complete mental breakdown on TLS.

My avatar lives on.

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rayiner
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby rayiner » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:06 am

Julio_El_Chavo wrote:It looks like, at best, 8% got Article III clerkships from those numbers (and the number for straight-out-of-law-school applicants is probably lower because it includes alumni; so I'd say 7% doesn't look too unrealistic for straight out of law school from these numbers). The 12-13 percent figure is for students coming straight out of UVA law school. I think almost doubling the percentage of the class that gets Article III clerkships is a significant difference between UVA and NU. But people can make up their own minds.


For NU C/O 2010, 29 people clerked, out of 285, or about 10%. If you take the distribution of clerkships from the table, about 37 of 50 were Article III, or 74%. So 7-8% is accurate for people getting Article III clerkships at graduation. At UVA for class of 2010, 52 people clerked, out of 374. UVA only gives the federal/state breakdown for C/O 2011, but that year 69% of at-graduation clerkships were Federal. That suggests that out of the 52 C/O 2010 clerks, about 36, or 9-10% of the class were Federal. So we're talking about a difference of about 2% of the class, or about 5-6 people.

That difference can be explained by the difference in demographics. At NU, over 10% of the class is JD-MBA's. No JD-MBA has clerked for several years (http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/jdm ... tstats.htm) and plenty have the grades to do so every year. Between the AJD's and the JD-MBA's, 20% of NU's class worked for 4-6 years before law school. These over 30 folks are dramatically less inclined to spend a year working for $60k, especially since most go into corporate rather than litigation.

Also, the most important part of the USNWR rankings, imo, are the Lawyer/Judges rankings and UVA is in a separate class of law schools than NU when it comes to these rankings (I believe UVA is consistently at 4.6/5 and NU is down around 4/5).


Breaking down USNWR rankings by sub-category is more than retarded. If judges/lawyers held UVA in such high regard, you think it would translate into meaningful differences in the employment statistics: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520
Last edited by rayiner on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rayiner
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Re: Are T10s worth the debt?

Postby rayiner » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:16 am

Mal Reynolds wrote:Rayiner, this is slightly off-topic, but from what I have seen you are very knowledgable about hiring practices for schools. Just curious how far below median firms will dip for schools like MVDN. How much is the difference between this and a CCN?


That's not the right way to look at it. Pretty much anybody above the bottom 10-20% at either school is capable of getting a firm job. The real issue is how likely they are to do so, and that is a function of not just grades, but target market, etc. Firms don't like to dip below median at any school, but at most schools 60% or so of the class is "median" (the curve is very tight above and below the median). More big firms who need warm bodies consider CCN a core recruiting school, and as a result more are likely to pick up people outside the top 60%.

I'd say that for NU C/O 2013, 60-70% of the class got an SA, and maybe 15% of the class never wanted one. Based on the data I've seen, for CCN you might add another 10% to that (70-80%).




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