Where should I go with 4.0/170?

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seancris
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Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby seancris » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:07 am

I'll be retaking in June and October and applying next cycle. My GPA is a 4.0 and I'm PTing in the high 160's. Confident that I can boost that to 170+ for at least one of those exams.

If I end up with a 4.0/170, and want minimal debt and maximum job prospects, where should I go with those numbers?

I don't know much about W & L, but USnews says 90% are employed at graduation, and I think that they give full-tuition offers to 4.0/170 applicants. I could conceivably graduate with less than 20k borrowed in that case, and my wife probably could cover CoL. I don't have any ties to Virginia right now, but my wife will be coming with and thus she will be working/career building there so I think that I will have more ties when it becomes time to job search.

ETA: The W&L scholly offers come with TTT stips, which makes me nervous. 3.2, I think. Should be doable, but you never know.

bdole2
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby bdole2 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:09 am

seancris wrote:I'll be retaking in June and October and applying next cycle. My GPA is a 4.0 and I'm PTing in the high 160's. Confident that I can boost that to 170+ for at least one of those exams.

If I end up with a 4.0/170, and want minimal debt and maximum job prospects, where should I go with those numbers?

I don't know much about W & L, but USnews says 90% are employed at graduation, and I think that they give full-tuition offers to 4.0/170 applicants. I could conceivably graduate with less than 20k borrowed in that case, and my wife probably could cover CoL. I don't have any ties to Virginia right now, but my wife will be coming with and thus she will be working/career building there so I think that I will have more ties when it becomes time to job search.


People will tell you to come back when you have a real LSAT score. But if you do in fact, end up with a 170+ do not limit yourself to W & L. You would get a full tuition offer at Cooley with those numbers too, but that doesn't mean you should go there.

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seancris
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby seancris » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:31 am

bdole2 wrote:People will tell you to come back when you have a real LSAT score. But if you do in fact, end up with a 170+ do not limit yourself to W & L. You would get a full tuition offer at Cooley with those numbers too, but that doesn't mean you should go there.


Given the debt-averseness, full-tuition at a T25 school seems very attractive. I could get in to Vandy with a scholarship at 170, but I'd still go 140k in debt.

The Cooley example doesn't apply as W & L seems to have decent employment numbers, at least according to US News. 90% at graduation is damn good IMO (if it's accurate) and it's not as W & L is some unranked school.

bobbyh1919
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby bobbyh1919 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:37 am

You could get good money at most of the lower T14, and I would absolutely take UVA/Duke/Mich/etc. at a half scholly over W&L full ride.

adam1
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby adam1 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:38 am

You could get full ride at northwestern, Georgetown, or UVA with those numbers.

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jkpolk
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby jkpolk » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:39 am

Why would you would be thinking T25 and not Stanford?

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seancris
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby seancris » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:40 am

NVM W & L numbers are misleading as hell.

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thexfactor
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby thexfactor » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:40 am

seancris wrote:
bdole2 wrote:People will tell you to come back when you have a real LSAT score. But if you do in fact, end up with a 170+ do not limit yourself to W & L. You would get a full tuition offer at Cooley with those numbers too, but that doesn't mean you should go there.


Given the debt-averseness, full-tuition at a T25 school seems very attractive. I could get in to Vandy with a scholarship at 170, but I'd still go 140k in debt.

The Cooley example doesn't apply as W & L seems to have decent employment numbers, at least according to US News. 90% at graduation is damn good IMO (if it's accurate) and it's not as W & L is some unranked school.


Employment numbers are pretty easy to fudge.
You need to look at NLJ250 placement data. Other than the top schools like YSH, NLJ250 is a pretty reliable indicator of how schools do in employment.

With a low 160s you should be ED to UVA.
Anything higher than that and you are lookign at scholarships at vandy/ucla/usc + lower t14. Who knows? maybe you can even get into harvard/yale/stanford if you geta 170+

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seancris
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby seancris » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:13 am

adam1 wrote:You could get full ride at northwestern, Georgetown, or UVA with those numbers.


So far no one with a 3.9/170 has reported money from Georgetown, much less a "full ride." Same with Northwestern. You could get money at UVA but you could also get waitlisted at UVA... OOS RD admissions is unpredictable. So I don't think we're realistically talking about any T14 full rides or even close to it.

I'm just looking at my potential options at 170, which I feel is an attainable goal. At 170 I could get 65k at Vandy, bringing tuition down to 70k and total borrowing at around 110k+, which makes me uncomfortable considering T25 schools would give me significantly less debt.

Seems like the debt would hurt your standard living by forcing you into a position where you have to make 6 figures to pay it down quickly. Six figures entry level is going to be an insane amount of hours. Seems like you could take a gov't job or pursue ugrad teaching with no debt from W & L and have a better lifestyle. I'd want time to spend with family, etc. It might be feasible to pay the debt down and have a higher earning potential but what would th ecost be to your personal life vs. low debt at a T25?

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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby justicefishy » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:18 am

With an LSAT score of 170 or above, I'd say you've got a shot at Stanford. Certainly at one of MVP with some money I'd say, maybe Berkeley.

adam1
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby adam1 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:22 am

seancris wrote:
adam1 wrote:You could get full ride at northwestern, Georgetown, or UVA with those numbers.


So far no one with a 3.9/170 has reported money from Georgetown, much less a "full ride." Same with Northwestern. You could get money at UVA but you could also get waitlisted at UVA... OOS RD admissions is unpredictable. So I don't think we're realistically talking about any T14 full rides or even close to it.

I'm just looking at my potential options at 170, which I feel is an attainable goal. At 170 I could get 65k at Vandy, bringing tuition down to 70k and total borrowing at around 110k+, which makes me uncomfortable considering T25 schools would give me significantly less debt.

Seems like the debt would hurt your standard living by forcing you into a position where you have to make 6 figures to pay it down quickly. Six figures entry level is going to be an insane amount of hours. Seems like you could take a gov't job or pursue ugrad teaching with no debt from W & L and have a better lifestyle. I'd want time to spend with family, etc. It might be feasible to pay the debt down and have a higher earning potential but what would th ecost be to your personal life vs. low debt at a T25?


Dude. Last year I applied 4./170. 135k at gtown. 60-70k at penn and Duke. 90k at uva. I was thinking of the ED thing at NW idk much about it admittedly. You're way off. Don't sell yourself short.

HS are where you're looking at waitlists.

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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby emptyflare » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:22 am

seancris wrote:
adam1 wrote:You could get full ride at northwestern, Georgetown, or UVA with those numbers.


So far no one with a 3.9/170 has reported money from Georgetown, much less a "full ride." Same with Northwestern. You could get money at UVA but you could also get waitlisted at UVA... OOS RD admissions is unpredictable. So I don't think we're realistically talking about any T14 full rides or even close to it.

I'm just looking at my potential options at 170, which I feel is an attainable goal. At 170 I could get 65k at Vandy, bringing tuition down to 70k and total borrowing at around 110k+, which makes me uncomfortable considering T25 schools would give me significantly less debt.

Seems like the debt would hurt your standard living by forcing you into a position where you have to make 6 figures to pay it down quickly. Six figures entry level is going to be an insane amount of hours. Seems like you could take a gov't job or pursue ugrad teaching with no debt from W & L and have a better lifestyle. I'd want time to spend with family, etc. It might be feasible to pay the debt down and have a higher earning potential but what would th ecost be to your personal life vs. low debt at a T25?


With regard to Northwestern, they have an ED program (rolled out this application cycle so not much data) in which applicants accepted receive a full-ride. Worth looking into, as your numbers (and work experience? too lazy to look at this point) would make you competitive.

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seancris
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby seancris » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:29 am

emptyflare wrote:With regard to Northwestern, they have an ED program (rolled out this application cycle so not much data) in which applicants accepted receive a full-ride. Worth looking into, as your numbers (and work experience? too lazy to look at this point) would make you competitive.


I'll definitely look into that program, thanks. Work experience won't be anything too special, though. Some political & court-related internships, guardian ad litem, and maybe a year working for the clerk's office.

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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby chiwachiwa » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:31 am

seancris wrote:
adam1 wrote:You could get full ride at northwestern, Georgetown, or UVA with those numbers.
Seems like the debt would hurt your standard living by forcing you into a position where you have to make 6 figures to pay it down quickly. Six figures entry level is going to be an insane amount of hours. Seems like you could take a gov't job or pursue ugrad teaching with no debt from W & L and have a better lifestyle. I'd want time to spend with family, etc. It might be feasible to pay the debt down and have a higher earning potential but what would th ecost be to your personal life vs. low debt at a T25?

Yeah, you should go to W&L with 0 debt so you can snag one of the many five-figure legal jobs with flexible and low hours expectations that are widely available there.
Last edited by chiwachiwa on Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

thsmthcrmnl
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby thsmthcrmnl » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:33 am

polkij333 wrote:Why would you would be thinking T25 and not Stanford?

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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby dolfan0516 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:40 am

seancris wrote:
adam1 wrote:You could get full ride at northwestern, Georgetown, or UVA with those numbers.


So far no one with a 3.9/170 has reported money from Georgetown, much less a "full ride." Same with Northwestern.


Just saying, besides the accepted ED students on full ride, NU hasnt released their scholarship info yet. They say at the end of the month. Im sure some other schools are in the same boat.

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seancris
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby seancris » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:00 am

chiwachiwa wrote:Yeah, you should go to W&L with 0 debt so you can snag one of the many five-figure legal jobs with flexible and low hours expectations that are widely available there.


lol just calm down. I didn't say anything was widely available, but it's not as if 50k gov't jobs don't exist. Not sure about VA, but in Florida there's extremely high turnover in SAOs. Positions are definitely not widely available, but they seem attainable.

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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby bdole2 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:05 am

seancris wrote:
chiwachiwa wrote:Yeah, you should go to W&L with 0 debt so you can snag one of the many five-figure legal jobs with flexible and low hours expectations that are widely available there.


lol just calm down. I didn't say anything was widely available, but it's not as if 50k gov't jobs don't exist. Not sure about VA, but in Florida there's extremely high turnover in SAOs. Positions are definitely not widely available, but they seem attainable.


If you really want gov't work in FL and are super debt adverse, wouldn't you be better served looking for a full-ride at UF or FSU over one at W & L?

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seancris
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby seancris » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:09 am

bdole2 wrote:If you really want gov't work in FL and are super debt adverse, wouldn't you be better served looking for a full-ride at UF or FSU over one at W & L?


There are no full rides at UF. Best scholly is 42k off of 63k sticker, which might increase. So roughly 21k + CoL at UF. I don't think FSU gives full rides either.

Don't really care if I stay in FL at this point which is partly why I'm looking elsewhere.

And I don't necessarily want gov't work but I am debt averse when the numbers at 120k+.

chiwachiwa
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby chiwachiwa » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:10 am

If you have a 4.0/170, DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, go to a school less than T14 unless it is (a) the best school in the market in which you want to work AND (b) free or close to free.

Also: why would your goal be to go to law school and come out with a 50k state prosecutor job? Why not just get a desk job out of undergrad? It can't pay much less than $50k and you've avoided 3 years of opportunity cost.

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R86
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby R86 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:17 am

:D
Last edited by R86 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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seancris
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby seancris » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:19 am

chiwachiwa wrote:If you have a 4.0/170, DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, go to a school less than T14 unless it is (a) the best school in the market in which you want to work AND (b) free or close to free.


Alright then. Let's agree on that. But let's also agree that 120k+ is too much debt. If I get a scholly from a T14 that pushes the debt under 120k, I will definitely attend. However, according to LSN data it seems unlikely that 4.0/170 = < 120k debt at T14.

Looking at nonT14s, if we take the eample of Vanderbilt it probably fulfills the first condition of being "the best school in the market in which I want to work," as I want to work in the SE and it is highly respected in the region. However, under no circumstances will I be going for free or close to free at 4.0/170. It's just not reasonable. 110k+ is more reasonable at Vandy.

This is my dilemma.

Do you have any new info that changes the equation?

Also: why would your goal be to go to law school and come out with a 50k state prosecutor job? Why not just get a desk job out of undergrad? It can't pay much less than $50k and you've avoided 3 years of opportunity cost.


First, a ugrad polisci degree is practically useless. Second, a SA job is a pretty good job in my estimation, aside from the compensation which is not terrible with no debt. Third, SA jobs could lead to more lucrative private practice in the future and wouldn't hurt politically if I decided to go in that dirtection

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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby adam1 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:26 am

Go to w&l

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jkpolk
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby jkpolk » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:27 am

This is a problem that will sort itself out. If 168+ apply early in the cycle to the entire T14 and MAYBE a regional school. If 168 or lower, retake, or enjoy a ride to a T25. Speculation right now is, at best, worthless- at worst, distracting from your likelihood of scoring well on the LSAT.

chiwachiwa
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Re: Where should I go with 4.0/170?

Postby chiwachiwa » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:28 am

seancris wrote:
chiwachiwa wrote:If you have a 4.0/170, DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, go to a school less than T14 unless it is (a) the best school in the market in which you want to work AND (b) free or close to free.


Alright then. Let's agree on that. But let's also agree that 120k+ is too much debt. If I get a scholly from a T14 that pushes the debt under 120k, I will definitely attend. However, according to LSN data it seems unlikely that 4.0/170 = < 120k debt at T14.

Looking at nonT14s, if we take the eample of Vanderbilt it probably fulfills the first condition of being "the best school in the market in which I want to work," as I want to work in the SE and it is highly respected in the region. However, under no circumstances will I be going for free or close to free at 4.0/170. It's just not reasonable. 110k+ is more reasonable at Vandy.

This is my dilemma.

Do you have any new info that changes the equation?

Also: why would your goal be to go to law school and come out with a 50k state prosecutor job? Why not just get a desk job out of undergrad? It can't pay much less than $50k and you've avoided 3 years of opportunity cost.


First, a ugrad polisci degree is practically useless. Second, a SA job is a pretty good job in my estimation, aside from the compensation which is not terrible with no debt. Third, SA jobs could lead to more lucrative private practice in the future and wouldn't hurt politically if I decided to go in that dirtection

You're simply being too debt-averse. Sure, it's great to go to school for $40k, but it's not worth doing that if you have other options because there is a good chance you won't have any job at all. What percent of W&L or similar schools finds a full-time, partner-track or equivalent job? I would guess it's around 1/3. If you have the opportunity to go to a T14 school with a significant scholarship, you should take it over a T25 school at full ride with very few exceptions. W&L is not one of them. If you are looking at 90k scholarship at UVA (as other posters have suggested) and you want to work in the southeast, that is a no brainer. Period.

You mean to tell me you can't get a job paying $50k with a 4.0 GPA? I find that hard to believe.
Last edited by chiwachiwa on Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.




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