Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

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tallgaloot
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Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby tallgaloot » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:37 pm

OK- Firs thing's first. I have not heard from many of my big reaches. I basically blanketed the T14 just for kicks and giggles. So, if I get into Penn or Cornell, case closed. However, right now I have NOT gotten into a T14 and am beginning to make choices. Leader in the clubhouse is Notre Dame who has offered me 20k a year. I am leaning towards Notre Dame because it's higher ranked, more prestige, and to this untrained eye more chance of a job following graduation. I have also been accepted at U of Illionis( 11k), Washington and Lee (20k), U Maryland (nothing yet), American (nothing yet), and Penn State (15k).

To get a full picture. My LSAT score was 167. WHile in my deepest moments I think I could have done better, it was the average of my last 10 LSAT practice scores, so I let it stand.

My UG GPA was 3.4 but it was a poor display. I wasn't focused as an UG. I pulled myself up by my boot straps and got a 3.6 the last 2 years to try to fix the 3.1 I got the other 2. I have a MBA degree where I have a 3.6 which I got while working fulltime.

My career focus is to work in the public service law or government sector upon graduating. I have worked the last 3 years in a non-profit organization for kids in poverty and want to continue that type of work, working with families in poverty or as a child advocate. I also have interest in state and national government. I have no real huge aspirations for "Big-Law." Short term goal upon graduation would be to secure an impressive clerkship and then go from there.

I would prefer to stay as close to my parents in NJ as possible as I have an ill mother, but school choices nearby are not so great. I would most likely return ot the east coast (PA, NJ, or Washington DC) upon graduation. This is probably the only factor leading me away from Notre Dame at the moment.

So I'm eager to hear some advice. Am I over-selling notre dame in my mind? Is it not that great of a school? Am I just a big fan of Rudy? Am I just as likely to be succesful closer at U MD, Penn State, W/L, or American? Are the ratings just a bunch of hogwash?

Anyway- Thanks for your help.

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bk1
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Re: Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby bk1 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:41 pm

Even at 20k/year you're going to over 150k debt coming from ND. You have little to lose by at least trying to get a 170+ on 1-2 LSAT tries.

BearsGrl
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Re: Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby BearsGrl » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:44 pm

tallgaloot wrote:OK- Firs thing's first. I have not heard from many of my big reaches. I basically blanketed the T14 just for kicks and giggles. So, if I get into Penn or Cornell, case closed. However, right now I have NOT gotten into a T14 and am beginning to make choices. Leader in the clubhouse is Notre Dame who has offered me 20k a year. I am leaning towards Notre Dame because it's higher ranked, more prestige, and to this untrained eye more chance of a job following graduation. I have also been accepted at U of Illionis( 11k), Washington and Lee (20k), U Maryland (nothing yet), American (nothing yet), and Penn State (15k).

To get a full picture. My LSAT score was 167. WHile in my deepest moments I think I could have done better, it was the average of my last 10 LSAT practice scores, so I let it stand.

My UG GPA was 3.4 but it was a poor display. I wasn't focused as an UG. I pulled myself up by my boot straps and got a 3.6 the last 2 years to try to fix the 3.1 I got the other 2. I have a MBA degree where I have a 3.6 which I got while working fulltime.

My career focus is to work in the public service law or government sector upon graduating. I have worked the last 3 years in a non-profit organization for kids in poverty and want to continue that type of work, working with families in poverty or as a child advocate. I also have interest in state and national government. I have no real huge aspirations for "Big-Law." Short term goal upon graduation would be to secure an impressive clerkship and then go from there.

I would prefer to stay as close to my parents in NJ as possible as I have an ill mother, but school choices nearby are not so great. I would most likely return ot the east coast (PA, NJ, or Washington DC) upon graduation. This is probably the only factor leading me away from Notre Dame at the moment.

So I'm eager to hear some advice. Am I over-selling notre dame in my mind? Is it not that great of a school? Am I just a big fan of Rudy? Am I just as likely to be succesful closer at U MD, Penn State, W/L, or American? Are the ratings just a bunch of hogwash?

Anyway- Thanks for your help.


Washington and Lee and University of Maryland based on the fact that you want to stay out East. You need to think about the school that will cost the least. Examine that factor first in terms of COA because you want a less-paying (not negative) job.

Notre Dame would be good if you want to go for the overall experience of attending sports and such. Plus, you get to always watch a movie based on your school. :) Joking aside though, I would consider U of Maryland and the other schools closer to NJ. You will need to establish a base ground of support. Why would you "waste" time in Indiana to only leave it to re-establish this support elsewhere? That doesn't make general sense unless you wanted to transfer to Chicago, which is an already saturated legal market.
Last edited by BearsGrl on Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

t14fanboy
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Re: Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby t14fanboy » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:45 pm

No you are not overselling it - it is the best option you have on the table IMO. However, as bk said, it would definitely be in your best interest to study and retake. You could definitely get into a t14 with a few more points.

tallgaloot
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Re: Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby tallgaloot » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:46 pm

bk1 wrote:Even at 20k/year you're going to over 150k debt coming from ND. You have little to lose by at least trying to get a 170+ on 1-2 LSAT tries.


Except a year of my life. I'm a little older and don't really want to wait another cycle. Maybe I could get a little higher on the LSAT, I just don't know. I had a few scores in that range (and one lone 172) to bring my average to 167.

To understand your point though, do you feel that Notre Dame is not worth going to? Or that it's a ton of debt and I should try again to get more? Or that I should try again to go someplace else?

As far as debt, yes it's an issue, but let's ignore it for the moment, because Notre Dame will forgive much of my debt if I go into public service.

tallgaloot
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Re: Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby tallgaloot » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:52 pm


Washington and Lee and University of Maryland based on the fact that you want to stay out East. You need to think about the school that will cost the least. Exam that factor first in terms of COA because you want a less-paying (not negative) job.

Notre Dame would be good if you want to go for the overall experience of attending sports and such. Plus, you get to always watch a movie based on your school. :) Joking aside though, I would consider U of Maryland and the other schools closer to NJ. You will need to establish a base ground of support. Why would you "waste" time in Indiana to only leave it to re-establish this support elsewhere? That doesn't make general sense unless you wanted to transfer to Chicago, which is an already saturated legal market.


I understand your point, but isn't Notre Dame pretty much a nationally recognized school? They are just out of the T14. Don't you think a ND degree can translate to a job anywhere? They tout having the highest number of Supreme Court clerkships.

As far as cost. It's about the same because of the 20k scholarship from N.D. Maryland has offered me nothing thus far and Washington and Lee is almost the same.

I should maybe mention I'm low income so may be getting need based help from some of these schools.

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JoeMo
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Re: Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby JoeMo » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:55 pm

tallgaloot wrote:
bk1 wrote:Even at 20k/year you're going to over 150k debt coming from ND. You have little to lose by at least trying to get a 170+ on 1-2 LSAT tries.


Except a year of my life. I'm a little older and don't really want to wait another cycle. Maybe I could get a little higher on the LSAT, I just don't know. I had a few scores in that range (and one lone 172) to bring my average to 167.

To understand your point though, do you feel that Notre Dame is not worth going to? Or that it's a ton of debt and I should try again to get more? Or that I should try again to go someplace else?

As far as debt, yes it's an issue, but let's ignore it for the moment, because Notre Dame will forgive much of my debt if I go into public service.


I feel you on this because I was on the same boat but with a lower LSAT and I ended up getting lucky. I wouldn't go to ND at that cost though because you're going to be going to a mid-size market and the degree is not as portable as some others. As someone said, Chicago would be the closest large legal market and it is indeed oversaturated with grads from Chicago, NU and others.

I would say out of your current choices pick Univ of MD but other than that I hope you get into some of those reaches so that this choice can be made for you.

BearsGrl
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Re: Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby BearsGrl » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:03 pm

tallgaloot wrote:

Washington and Lee and University of Maryland based on the fact that you want to stay out East. You need to think about the school that will cost the least. Exam that factor first in terms of COA because you want a less-paying (not negative) job.

Notre Dame would be good if you want to go for the overall experience of attending sports and such. Plus, you get to always watch a movie based on your school. :) Joking aside though, I would consider U of Maryland and the other schools closer to NJ. You will need to establish a base ground of support. Why would you "waste" time in Indiana to only leave it to re-establish this support elsewhere? That doesn't make general sense unless you wanted to transfer to Chicago, which is an already saturated legal market.


I understand your point, but isn't Notre Dame pretty much a nationally recognized school? They are just out of the T14. Don't you think a ND degree can translate to a job anywhere? They tout having the highest number of Supreme Court clerkships.

As far as cost. It's about the same because of the 20k scholarship from N.D. Maryland has offered me nothing thus far and Washington and Lee is almost the same.

I should maybe mention I'm low income so may be getting need based help from some of these schools.


Notre Dame has national cache in general, but you will want to gain contacts in the government sector so I would think it would be more beneficial to do that at a more local state. Whether that be MD, NJ or elsewhere is debatable.

Until you have been offered money from any school, never assume that you'll be getting anything. I say that with the best of intentions. I'm one of those people that thinks scholarships are harder to keep than people let on.

You said that you wanted public interest law though. You have to weigh public interest vs. government because while similar they are different fields of study. Either one is going to be an ok option at the end of the day. It's just a matter of how much debt you want to take on and I think practically, U of Maryland offers more ability for DC opportunities.

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bk1
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Re: Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby bk1 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:06 pm

tallgaloot wrote:Except a year of my life. I'm a little older and don't really want to wait another cycle. Maybe I could get a little higher on the LSAT, I just don't know. I had a few scores in that range (and one lone 172) to bring my average to 167.

To understand your point though, do you feel that Notre Dame is not worth going to? Or that it's a ton of debt and I should try again to get more? Or that I should try again to go someplace else?

As far as debt, yes it's an issue, but let's ignore it for the moment, because Notre Dame will forgive much of my debt if I go into public service.


Put a deposit somewhere, retake in June. You will be able to figure out whether your score is better before having to start law school so if it isn't you can just cancel your deposit and reapply. I don't think your age is relevant. The differences between 22/23, 29/30, and 39/40 are all small. You're about to gamble 150,000+ on law school, I think gambling a year of your life on even a small chance of doing better is a much better thing to do.

Schools like ND have nominal LRAP programs. They are often subject to the whims of the school due to their limited budget. This differs from the guarantees that universities with large endowments like Penn/Cornell give because they can afford to cover their LRAP programs. Furthermore, ND will not give you any assistance if you make over 55k and they start to reduce the amount of assistance they give once you hit 45k.

Not sure how much weight ND carries for PI places, but I think if you're relying on LRAP/IBR you should at least go somewhere better. Or if you don't do that at least get more $ from ND so they aren't such a risk.

tallgaloot
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Re: Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby tallgaloot » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:10 pm

BearsGrl wrote:
tallgaloot wrote:

Washington and Lee and University of Maryland based on the fact that you want to stay out East. You need to think about the school that will cost the least. Exam that factor first in terms of COA because you want a less-paying (not negative) job.

Notre Dame would be good if you want to go for the overall experience of attending sports and such. Plus, you get to always watch a movie based on your school. :) Joking aside though, I would consider U of Maryland and the other schools closer to NJ. You will need to establish a base ground of support. Why would you "waste" time in Indiana to only leave it to re-establish this support elsewhere? That doesn't make general sense unless you wanted to transfer to Chicago, which is an already saturated legal market.


I understand your point, but isn't Notre Dame pretty much a nationally recognized school? They are just out of the T14. Don't you think a ND degree can translate to a job anywhere? They tout having the highest number of Supreme Court clerkships.

As far as cost. It's about the same because of the 20k scholarship from N.D. Maryland has offered me nothing thus far and Washington and Lee is almost the same.

I should maybe mention I'm low income so may be getting need based help from some of these schools.


Notre Dame has national cache in general, but you will want to gain contacts in the government sector so I would think it would be more beneficial to do that at a more local state. Whether that be MD, NJ or elsewhere is debatable.

Until you have been offered money from any school, never assume that you'll be getting anything. I say that with the best of intentions. I'm one of those people that thinks scholarships are harder to keep than people let on.

You said that you wanted public interest law though. You have to weigh public interest vs. government because while similar they are different fields of study. Either one is going to be an ok option at the end of the day. It's just a matter of how much debt you want to take on and I think practically, U of Maryland offers more ability for DC opportunities.

I appreciate your advice although at the moment U Maryland has offered me nothing. I currently live in PA and wouldn't mind returning here. I notice nobody has mentioned Penn State (no good?). Also- the difference in rankings 22 (notre Dame) vs. 39 (UMD) is neither here nor there?

I kind of goofed off during my UG and want to take this chance to go to the BEST school that accepts me. And no, I don't want to stay in Indiana or Chicago. Also- I understand the difference between public service law and government, but is it ok to say I haven't made my mind up yet? Looking toward a clerkship following school.

tennisking88
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Re: Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby tennisking88 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:12 pm

ND has an excellent/generous lrap program.

ND does not place well on the east coast. Be prepared to stay midwest.

tennisking88
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Re: Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby tennisking88 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:19 pm

tallgaloot wrote:
BearsGrl wrote:
tallgaloot wrote:

Washington and Lee and University of Maryland based on the fact that you want to stay out East. You need to think about the school that will cost the least. Exam that factor first in terms of COA because you want a less-paying (not negative) job.

Notre Dame would be good if you want to go for the overall experience of attending sports and such. Plus, you get to always watch a movie based on your school. :) Joking aside though, I would consider U of Maryland and the other schools closer to NJ. You will need to establish a base ground of support. Why would you "waste" time in Indiana to only leave it to re-establish this support elsewhere? That doesn't make general sense unless you wanted to transfer to Chicago, which is an already saturated legal market.


I understand your point, but isn't Notre Dame pretty much a nationally recognized school? They are just out of the T14. Don't you think a ND degree can translate to a job anywhere? They tout having the highest number of Supreme Court clerkships.

As far as cost. It's about the same because of the 20k scholarship from N.D. Maryland has offered me nothing thus far and Washington and Lee is almost the same.

I should maybe mention I'm low income so may be getting need based help from some of these schools.


Notre Dame has national cache in general, but you will want to gain contacts in the government sector so I would think it would be more beneficial to do that at a more local state. Whether that be MD, NJ or elsewhere is debatable.

Until you have been offered money from any school, never assume that you'll be getting anything. I say that with the best of intentions. I'm one of those people that thinks scholarships are harder to keep than people let on.

You said that you wanted public interest law though. You have to weigh public interest vs. government because while similar they are different fields of study. Either one is going to be an ok option at the end of the day. It's just a matter of how much debt you want to take on and I think practically, U of Maryland offers more ability for DC opportunities.

I appreciate your advice although at the moment U Maryland has offered me nothing. I currently live in PA and wouldn't mind returning here. I notice nobody has mentioned Penn State (no good?). Also- the difference in rankings 22 (notre Dame) vs. 39 (UMD) is neither here nor there?

I kind of goofed off during my UG and want to take this chance to go to the BEST school that accepts me. And no, I don't want to stay in Indiana or Chicago. Also- I understand the difference between public service law and government, but is it ok to say I haven't made my mind up yet? Looking toward a clerkship following school.


Do not go to MD at sticker, or anything close to sticker. Do not go to Penn state w/15k. Why not WL? MD has no edge over WL for DC jobs (in fact WL may be more successful).

It's not impossible to get to DC or NY from ND, but you need to do very well.

tallgaloot
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Re: Coming dow to the wire here... Notre Dame vs. somewhere else

Postby tallgaloot » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:22 pm

tennisking88 wrote:

Do not go to MD at sticker, or anything close to sticker. Do not go to Penn state w/15k. Why not WL? MD has no edge over WL for DC jobs (in fact WL may be more successful).

It's not impossible to get to DC or NY from ND, but you need to do very well.


Does my chance at work increase because I am not pushing for Big Law? I have heard nothing but negative about W&L from these boards, tell me I'm wrong...




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