Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

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Bronck
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby Bronck » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:11 pm

This guy's density makes me feel like he's trolling everyone.

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RaleighStClair
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby RaleighStClair » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:38 pm

BearsGirl is just the worst. Her posts, combined with this depressing 10 day forecast (http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/S ... A+USWA0395), are making me want to kill myself.

OP: Don't go to Seattle U without ties AND substantial funding/scholarships.

/thread

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby AVBucks4239 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:05 pm

BearsGrl wrote:You assumed that I was talking about some 0L job. Nowhere did I mention the concept of 0L law job.
I never claimed to be an expert. I claimed that there would be differing opinions on the issue. If you felt that was a personal attack, so be it.

I agree with your first two paragraphs. But I don't see how repeating the same talking points that the person is going to read from 4938594358 other TLS posters is going to help that particular person with their particular question. You disagree with that. I understand. I don't disagree with your ability to disagree with it.

You are assuming that people don't take into account that they will be making $50,000 as a starting salary. This is a false assumption.

I have read your posts in this thread and the "Miami vs. San Diego" thread. A few thoughts:

1) People frequently post in this forum with job prospects in mind. Thus, regular posters here do not feel the need to "connect the dots," as you keep imploring, when they give advice about the schools. When we say "don't go to X," that means "Unless you finish top 10% at the schools you're considering, your job prospects will be stacked against you, and you should consider other options."

2) Building on that, let me lay it out for you anyway: the legal market is AWFUL. As a result, it is unanimously encouraged by posters here that prospective law students, such as OP here, should choose the best school with the least amount of risk. Factors to be considered here are strength of school, strength of school in its region, amount of debt, potentially re-taking the LSAT, etc.

3) Another factor to minimize risk is what TLS calls "ties." Since the market is awful, law firms want to hire people who they think will be there for the long term. A huge part of evaluating that is if the person is from there, if the person has family there, the person's undergrad, etc. I have had probably 15+ interviews. In every one of them, the first or second question has been "So do you like [insert city]/So do you see yourself in [city] long term/What do you like about [city]/etc. Of course you can go and get a regular job pretty much anywhere. But law firms are different. They have to deal with you 60-80 hours per week, not 30-40. Thus, it's hugely important that you can discuss the area/probably cheer for the same sports teams/know people who went to local undergrads/eat at the same restaurants/etc.

4) Consequently, when an OP posits a "no-win" question (such as Seattle v. Michigan State), the advice is going to be simple: retake or don't go. Sorry OP, but Seattle and Michigan State are not good options at full-price. Why? Because of all the above I (and everyone else) have just posted. The legal market is bad, thus going to a T3 is a bad idea, thus going to a T3 where you will be in $120k debt is a bad idea, and thus going to a T3 where you have no ties is an even worse idea. Unless you finish top 10%, you are looking at $45k/year salary with an $1100/month loan payment.

5) Cut it out with the "you are assuming" bullshit. If you try anything remotely close to this on exams, you will fail out of law school, no questions asked.

6) Most importantly, I can't implore you enough to stop giving advice to people about decisions for law school. People come here for advice and, as somebody who is not in law school, you are in absolutely no position to give it. Want to go give advice about the LSAT? Go ahead. Want to look up stuff for posters in the "What are my chances?" forum? Go ahead. But you should not be giving advice about employment prospects out of T3's when you have not attended law school. Period. Legal employment is an entirely different animal than just getting some ordinary job. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You know more about my sex life than you do legal employment (i.e. fucking nothing), so stop posting.

clintone88
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby clintone88 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:19 pm

No13baby wrote:
lobolawyer wrote: the weather in Seattle is better,


I've seen the sun MAYBE three times since October. There are a lot of great things about Seattle, but the weather is not one of them.


If you've only seen the sun 3 times since October you either went blind in October (and then sorry for your misfortune), or you don't get out much, as in ever since October, (again, sounds unenjoyable). The weather in Seattle sucks compared to CA obviously, but saying the weather in Seattle is better than the midwest in its entirety is truth. Unless you are a robot and run better at ultracold/cannot handle moisture.

That is all. SU is still not good at sticker. But OP is dumb so f him.

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jne381
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby jne381 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:14 pm

My goodness, this website is full of a bunch of raw assholes.

I don't know about Seattle, but MSU has been rising in the rankings for the last couple years, and looking at the numbers for applications this year, it should rise next year as well.

There are plenty of opportunities to make connections in the market in Michigan through sumer externships and working during the school year. The job market is tight, but four years from now may be quite a bit better than it is now. Also, quite a few people from MSU do find work in Chicago.

OP, if you really want to be a lawyer, don't let these fucks dissuade you. Work hard and work smart, and you will be successful.

Seneca
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby Seneca » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:26 pm

OP, even if you are lucky enough to find gainful employment out of either of those schools with no ties (a good portion of your class even with ties won't be so lucky), you're still trapped in that region for the rest of your career, and you don't seem to know much about either if you think Seattle and East Lansing are interchangeable in terms of weather, cost of living, culture, geography, etc. If you've lived in LA all your life, you may not love living in Seattle, where, while the summer is spectacular, it will easily drizzle non-stop for days straight. If you're not concerned (and you should be) about the debt you will be incurring by attending either of these schools at sticker, you should at least pause to reconsider whether you'd like to spend the next several decades of your life.

If you're willing to pay sticker and incur debt for schools like Seattle U and MSU, there are similar options closer to home. Have you looked at Southwestern? I wouldn't recommend going there at sticker, either, but at least it wouldn't trap you in a small market where you have no ties and zero degree portability.

PrinceKasra
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby PrinceKasra » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:00 am

The financial debt isn't a significant factor. Besides, I know the economy can only get better with every day. It is evident that most people on this site just want to throw every negative there is which can be a good thing, but there is no way you can tell me that after rising to the top of my class and building strong networks I have no chance of getting a job. I might not have a great chance but why should that indicate that I give up on law. How many of you have a job? I cannot draw an assumption but I will make a smart guess saying that most do not due to this economy. Patience is all I need. Things will improve. It just takes time. And I do have my family's support. I can afford to pay off the loans from both schools. I do believe that hard work pays off. I might not be a genius or an idiot, but I am probably of average intelligence according to the stupid LSAT. And you know what, the most successful people start average. The reality is no one has a job. You act like I am the only person screwed. I will be a brilliant lawyer. I don't need to prove it to anyone. I will let my determination and hard work do the talking. So I will stop talking and let you guys keep talking about how I am dumb and how everyone who thinks there is a chance for success in law school is stupid. 3 years from now maybe I will not have that job, but I will still be doing something with my degree while you guys stay in the same spot saying the same things on TLS.

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Jaeger
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby Jaeger » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:17 am

PrinceKasra wrote:The financial debt - a significant factor. - It is evident that most people on this site just want to throw every negative there is which can be a good thing, - I might not have a great chance - How many of you have a job? - most do not due to this economy. - I might not be a genius - So I will stop talking and let you guys keep talking about how I am dumb and how everyone who thinks there is a chance for success in law school is stupid. 3 years from now maybe I will not have that job



Took out the irrelevant parts. You're welcome.

bdole2
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby bdole2 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:19 am

PrinceKasra wrote:The financial debt isn't a significant factor. Besides, I know the economy can only get better with every day. It is evident that most people on this site just want to throw every negative there is which can be a good thing, but there is no way you can tell me that after rising to the top of my class and building strong networks I have no chance of getting a job. I might not have a great chance but why should that indicate that I give up on law. How many of you have a job? I cannot draw an assumption but I will make a smart guess saying that most do not due to this economy. Patience is all I need. Things will improve. It just takes time. And I do have my family's support. I can afford to pay off the loans from both schools. I do believe that hard work pays off. I might not be a genius or an idiot, but I am probably of average intelligence according to the stupid LSAT. And you know what, the most successful people start average. The reality is no one has a job. You act like I am the only person screwed. I will be a brilliant lawyer. I don't need to prove it to anyone. I will let my determination and hard work do the talking. So I will stop talking and let you guys keep talking about how I am dumb and how everyone who thinks there is a chance for success in law school is stupid. 3 years from now maybe I will not have that job, but I will still be doing something with my degree while you guys stay in the same spot saying the same things on TLS.


You know life isn't a fairy tale, right? There is no way to know that you will be at the top of your class.

Most successful people start average? What does that even mean?

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:31 am

PrinceKasra wrote:The financial debt isn't a significant factor. Besides, I know the economy can only get better with every day.


While, yes, the economy is not the best at the moment, these two schools did not have good job placement during boom times.

PrinceKasra wrote:It is evident that most people on this site just want to throw every negative there is which can be a good thing, but there is no way you can tell me that after rising to the top of my class and building strong networks I have no chance of getting a job.


Yes, if you finish at the top of your class and you interview well, then you will probably get a good job from most any accredited law school. The discussion, though, is whether a small chance of a high paying job is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.

PrinceKasra wrote: I might not have a great chance but why should that indicate that I give up on law.


You don't have to give up on law. Retake and go to a school that is worth the cost (in terms of its ability to get you a legal job).

PrinceKasra wrote:How many of you have a job? I cannot draw an assumption but I will make a smart guess saying that most do not due to this economy.


I think most 2L's on TLS do have summer jobs lined up. In related news, most of the 2Ls I know on TLS go to high ranked schools with traditionally strong placement numbers.

PrinceKasra wrote:Patience is all I need. Things will improve. It just takes time.


As said previously, the schools you are considering NEVER had strong placement numbers. A good economy won't change that. Look at this breakdown: http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf . Like it or not, law is a field full of prestige whores. Lower ranked schools don't offer many high paying jobs and for many people these schools don't offer LEGAL jobs.

PrinceKasra wrote:And I do have my family's support. I can afford to pay off the loans from both schools.


If your family will help support you, tell them to help support you while you retake. You could save so much money, in terms of either scholarships or enhanced career opportunities, by just improving a score on a very learnable test.

PrinceKasra wrote:I do believe that hard work pays off. I might not be a genius or an idiot, but I am probably of average intelligence according to the stupid LSAT. And you know what, the most successful people start average.


PrinceKasra wrote:The reality is no one has a job. You act like I am the only person screwed. I will be a brilliant lawyer. I don't need to prove it to anyone.


To prove you can be a brilliant lawyer, you will need to find a job as a lawyer coming out of these schools. That might not happen.

PrinceKasra wrote:I will let my determination and hard work do the talking.


Hard work and determination are helpful but they don't translate automatically into strong grades or the ability to interview well. I was able to do well as a 1L, but I completely acknowledge that grades have a random quality to them. Hardwork can help minimize the randomness, but it will always be there. OCI and mass mailings can be random as hell too.

PrinceKasra wrote:So I will stop talking and let you guys keep talking about how I am dumb and how everyone who thinks there is a chance for success in law school is stupid. 3 years from now maybe I will not have that job, but I will still be doing something with my degree while you guys stay in the same spot saying the same things on TLS.


I don't think anyone was calling you dumb because of your GPA or LSAT score. I don't have the best UGPA and my diagnostic LSAT score was pretty low. Don't let a low LSAT define you. It really is a very, very learnable test. If anyone is calling you dumb it's because you seem determined to make a very poor decision in terms of cost vs chance of success.

rad lulz
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby rad lulz » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:39 am

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BarcaCrossesTheAlps
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:40 am

I'd like to chip in here...

To OP: while TLS is full of a$$holish type posters, 99% of the advice content is sound. They give it to you in sharp, hard, knock-out power doses of cold reality. But sometimes we need a cold shower to wake us up!

I too applied to SU and MSU. Guess what? Although SU was a safety app, I found out from many people on here that SU is a quickly sinking ship. You used to be able to get a decent job with manageable debt when you graduated in the top %50. The trouble is, SU is more and more operating like a FP law school. (yeah, the recession, too..) Same goes for Syracuse, really. I don't think I'd go to law school if they were the only two I was admitted.

MSU? Well, I decided to keep an eye for out for them if they offer me damn good money. Why? Because I would also be doing an MA in labor relations, which actually carries well into industry. But that means I wouldn't necessarily be getting a job for my JD. I'd be getting one for the MA; the JD would only make me slightly more "marketable" to industry in a general-knowledge way.

Basically, these schools are death traps.

Point being: If SU and MSU are your only options, you should listen to these a-holes and take a deep breath. Take a day and really consider your future if you graduated from one of these schools with hefty debt and poor job prospects. There is always tomorrow unless you mortgage your future on dreams alone.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby AVBucks4239 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:42 am

PrinceKasra wrote:The financial debt isn't a significant factor. Besides, I know the economy can only get better with every day...And I do have my family's support. I can afford to pay off the loans from both schools.

$100k-$150k in debt isn't a significant factor? Come on man. Even if your parents are helping to foot the bill, you should do yourself and them a favor and limit your debt as much as possible. I sucked it up, sat out a year more than planned, and retook. I ended up getting $12k/year scholarship, saved about $12k working, and attended a much cheaper state school. Waiting one year saved me well over $50k.

PrinceKasra wrote:It is evident that most people on this site just want to throw every negative there is which can be a good thing, but there is no way you can tell me that after rising to the top of my class and building strong networks I have no chance of getting a job. I might not have a great chance but why should that indicate that I give up on law.

I'm not telling you to give up. I'm telling you to retake, save money, and get into a better school that will minimize your debt while increasing your opportunities for solid legal employment. And I'm not a T14 or bust person like a lot of people on here. I myself attend a TTT and feel good about my decision. But I only attended a TTT because I got significant scholarship money and have an assload of ties to the area.

The "after rising to the top of my class" is so far off it's hard to address. Under no circumstances should you ever predict how you will do in law school. This is especially true if you attend a school paying sticker, considering at least 1/3 of the class is probably on some sort of scholarship and are, statistically speaking, much smarter than you. On top of that, taking a law school exam is a unique skill. Predicting how you will be able to perform at this unique style of test-taking is a bad idea, especially when you didn't do well on the LSAT.

PrinceKasra wrote:How many of you have a job? I cannot draw an assumption but I will make a smart guess saying that most do not due to this economy. Patience is all I need. Things will improve. It just takes time. I do believe that hard work pays off. I might not be a genius or an idiot, but I am probably of average intelligence according to the stupid LSAT. And you know what, the most successful people start average. The reality is no one has a job. You act like I am the only person screwed.

Lay off the cliches because nobody gives a shit. All of this is too stupid to even address in a coherent manner.

PrinceKasra wrote:I will be a brilliant lawyer. I don't need to prove it to anyone. I will let my determination and hard work do the talking. So I will stop talking and let you guys keep talking about how I am dumb and how everyone who thinks there is a chance for success in law school is stupid. 3 years from now maybe I will not have that job, but I will still be doing something with my degree while you guys stay in the same spot saying the same things on TLS.

Determination and hard work only get you so far. I know people who spent every waking moment studying and finished median. Like I said, you really can't predict how you will do in law school.

And I don't think you're dumb because of your GPA/LSAT/schools you're considering. I got a 148 the first time I took the LSAT and was considering similar level schools as you. I do, however, think you're dumb for not listening to the advice you're getting. I made a similar thread to the one you made two years ago (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=124013). Unlike you, however, I actually had the common sense to listen to people's advice. Now I'm at a better school, saved an absolute truckload of money, and luckily did well first semester.

Honestly, I know it comes off as harsh, but we are trying to help you avoid making a terrible decision. Calm down, put your pride on the shelf, and think about it.

PrinceKasra
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby PrinceKasra » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:34 am

So taking a fourth lsat and hoping I get above a 154 on the day of the test is a good risk. It is doable but there is always the chance that the test day will throw me off again and I will drop below my practice tests. 4 low scores is worse than 3 so that would be a tough decision to make. Unless I just settle for southwestern law school which I am certain I can get in to.

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BarcaCrossesTheAlps
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:30 am

How many times can you take the LSAT? I guess you already know, but if not, look that up. I remember something about not being able to take more than 3 in a one year period, or something.

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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby AVBucks4239 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:15 pm

PrinceKasra wrote:So taking a fourth lsat and hoping I get above a 154 on the day of the test is a good risk. It is doable but there is always the chance that the test day will throw me off again and I will drop below my practice tests. 4 low scores is worse than 3 so that would be a tough decision to make. Unless I just settle for southwestern law school which I am certain I can get in to.

You can take the LSAT 3 times in any two year period. Judging from your profile, if you took it back in 2008, that score no longer "counts" against you and you can take it again.

Second, most schools outside the T14 only look at your highest score, so don't worry about that.

Third, your admission that test days "throw you off" should be a signal to you. Pressure during exams is significantly higher than pressure during the LSAT. Imagine having to take 5 LSATs in a two-three week period and that is pretty much what exams are like, except you are studying very hard between those days. This is why everyone tells you not to guess how you will do in law school.

For example, a really smart kid in my class was just outside top 10% last semester. He was actually pissed about it and has pretty much been in the library every night until 9-10 this semester. We had a CrimLaw midterm last Wednesday. He had everything memorized a week before the exam, had a great outline, etc. Come the exam, it was a big murder hypo where it was clear as day the the main issues were homicide, burglary, and kidnapping. Instead of writing about all these issues, this kid said he went into a big treatise about all the theories of theft (there was theft, but it was a small issue). We haven't got grades, but he knows he bombed it because he said "I just panicked." You just never, ever know how you will do come exam time, no matter how hard you work.

What I recommend is what I did--take the June LSAT. You get to sleep in and that should help. Between now and then, focus on your weakest section. With a 154, I'm guessing there is at least one section that is really hurting you. You need to target that. Then you will get your June score before the 2012-13 application cycle begins. You will then be able to apply early in the cycle and increase your odds of getting into better schools/get scholarship money.

PrinceKasra
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby PrinceKasra » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:59 am

I have taken the lsat 3 times since October of 2010 so I cannot take it again till October and so there goes another year. I have also considered maybe building my resume for a year or two to maybe increase my chances into higher schools through that. I realize that most applicants who get into top schools have had time to do something with their life and not jump right into it at a young age. I'll see what happens and if I do get into any other schools.

luckyman2000
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby luckyman2000 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:22 pm

Hi all,

Good advice mostly!

Many people go to law school for many different personal reasons. Not every law student is aiming for a Bigfirm.

IF one wants to be a lawyer and wants to go solo or IF one can get law education without any loan, would anyone recommend going to MSU or SU? Would anyone think MSU/SU is a law school that can provide quality legal education? IF you had disposable cash ($200k) and accepted to both of these school and wanted to be a lawyer, would you go for either of those? I've seen a lot of super lawyers from T3/T4. Would you think law is not for you just b/c you get no scholly and bad LSAT scores? What about lawyers who came from other countries and passed state bars? Do you think law is not for them because they did not take LSAT? Maybe, I just have too many Qs!
Last edited by luckyman2000 on Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:42 pm

luckyman2000 wrote:Hi all,

Good advice mostly!

Many people go to law school for many different personal reasons. Not every law student is aiming for a Bigfirm.

IF one wants to be a lawyer and wants to go solo or IF one can get law education without any loan, would anyone recommend going to MSU or SU? Would anyone think MSU/SU is a law school that can provide quality legal education? IF you had disposable cash ($200k) and accepted to both of these school and wanted to be a lawyer, would you go for either of those?

If I had $200,000 of disposable cash, you can bet your ass that I wouldn't be spending it on a degree from MSU or SU, no matter how much they are "rising in the rankings" or whatever Kool-Aid jne keeps touting.

Final debt total is an important number when assessing law school, but it shouldn't be the only number you focus on. If you pay $20,000 cash for a used 1995 Cutlass with 150,000 miles on it, you still got a really raw deal. Yeah, it was probably better that you paid cash for it than if you got a loan for that amount, but you still paid tons of money for a crummy car. Don't pay $200,000 cash or whatever for the law degree equivalent of a '95 Cutlass.

Finally, "quality legal education" is about the worst factor in the world to judge a school by. Every school teaches the same stuff. The quality of your education won't make an ounce of difference if you can't get a JOB. Your knowledge of railroad injury cases from your 1L Torts class is little consolation if you are unemployed.

In summary: SU/MSU are okay schools if you have ties and can go for cheap.

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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:52 pm

romothesavior wrote:Final debt total is an important number when assessing law school, but it shouldn't be the only number you focus on. If you pay $20,000 cash for a used 1995 Cutlass with 150,000 miles on it, you still got a really raw deal.

Bro.......




Image

rad lulz
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby rad lulz » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:57 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

luckyman2000
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Re: Seattle University vs. Michigan State University

Postby luckyman2000 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:13 pm

Everybody knows the chances are lower at lower ranked schools. I just thought that above posters' remark,"law is not for you", was a little too harsh and absolute. But, yea I agree with you that ranking means something. Thanks.




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