Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

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rad lulz
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby rad lulz » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:12 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:18 pm

Had an alum come and speak at our school this morning. Guy was a managing partner at a big law firm in Dallas, and he said that usually stuff: would not have gotten into CU Law today, would not have gotten his big law job with the grades he had at CU Law today, had to be in the top 5% of a T25 school for them to even look at your resume or had to "know a managing partner." Exception was the local school (SMU). Not in the T25 but would still look at the very top of the class. I'm assuming they would go deeper than 5% at UT or other schools but he didn't say anything about that. Also top 25 schools was his distinction, never said T14 FWIW.

Super depressing. Not even sure why career services invited him in... I think his kid was in town to look at undergrad schools and he just had some time to kill. Basic message was that literally no one could get a job at his firm from the law school he was speaking at?

Anyway seems to suggest that at least on firm in dallas does keep up with the rankings. The question was, initially, do you keep up with the rankings, and his answer was "if anyone tells you otherwise they are lying." Dunno obviously this was just one dood.

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Bless
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Bless » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:25 pm

OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FSU DROPS FROM THE T1! IT WAS TIER 1 WHEN I GOT HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT WAS #50 and now it's #51!!!!!!!!!!!

#droppingout #transferring #eitherdroppingoutortransferring #debt #debti'llneverpayback #it'sover #TTT #medschool #paralegal #suing #embarrassed #gogators

005618502
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby 005618502 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:28 pm

Bless wrote:OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FSU DROPS FROM THE T1! IT WAS TIER 1 WHEN I GOT HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT WAS #50 and now it's #51!!!!!!!!!!!

#droppingout #transferring #eitherdroppingoutortransferring #debt #debti'llneverpayback #it'sover #TTT #medschool #paralegal #suing #embarrassed #gogators


:lol:

2transferornot
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby 2transferornot » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:28 pm

On a related note, my engineering grad school seems to have dropped from #15 when I went there to the 40s now. Granted I'm old, but this is ridiculous. Folks at USNews - get a real job!

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Bless
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Bless » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:32 pm

FSU LAW IS UP IN ARMS RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT'S A MADHOUSE AROUND THIS JOINT!!!!!!!! CODE FUCKING RED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


#worldwar3 #demolition #2012 #armageddon #apocalypsenow #whatarewegonnado #anarchy #fml #judgmentday #theskyisfalling

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:41 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Had an alum come and speak at our school this morning. Guy was a managing partner at a big law firm in Dallas, and he said that usually stuff: would not have gotten into CU Law today, would not have gotten his big law job with the grades he had at CU Law today, had to be in the top 5% of a T25 school for them to even look at your resume or had to "know a managing partner." Exception was the local school (SMU). Not in the T25 but would still look at the very top of the class. I'm assuming they would go deeper than 5% at UT or other schools but he didn't say anything about that. Also top 25 schools was his distinction, never said T14 FWIW.

Super depressing. Not even sure why career services invited him in... I think his kid was in town to look at undergrad schools and he just had some time to kill. Basic message was that literally no one could get a job at his firm from the law school he was speaking at?

Anyway seems to suggest that at least on firm in dallas does keep up with the rankings. The question was, initially, do you keep up with the rankings, and his answer was "if anyone tells you otherwise they are lying." Dunno obviously this was just one dood.


The only firms in Dallas who are that picky that I know of are Susman Godfrey and (maybe) Bickel and Brewer. Maybe also McKool Smith? But those are all litigation boutique firms. The bigtex firms in Dallas and the more national biglaw firms take well below 5% at UT and other schools. What the guy is probably conveying is if the hiring partner isn't familiar with your law school and then goes to check up to see what rank your law school is, well than it will probably be bad news if your school isn't within a certain range. If the firm already does OCI at say WUSTL, the firm is not going to stop doing OCI at WUSTL b/c of a drop in rank and will probably not even know that such a drop in rank happened. If the firm doesn't do OCI at a school but has hired from that school before (and has had success with those people), then they will still treat those people who mail in their application the same. If rankings matter for employees, it's to fill in gaps of ignorance.

Another good potential takeaway from this: Don't trust what partners say about firm hiring unless they are the hiring partner or have worked hiring committees. A random partner may know what the hiring process is like or he might not have a clue. It's kind of like asking a law professor for advise on applying to law schools. Sure, they might be keeping up with current admissions standards, but they might not have a clue.

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kwais
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby kwais » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:43 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Arizona State is a school in the rise. WUSTTTL is a toilet in decline. Obvs. Oh and Texas ... I'd be surprised if they even have enough employers for an OCI next year.

Seriously I hope some of you 0Ls come back in a year or two and laugh at how hard y'all are spergging out over some meaningless rankings system compiled by a joke of a publication using highly sketchy metrics that no employer really cares about.


Seems like most of the spergging is being done by law students.

Like who? Most of the law students I have seen posting about this thing couldn't care less.


The constant freaking out about how everyone is freaking out over stupid shit is starting to freak me out.

We get it. The rankings don't matter. Calm down.

This. Almost all ratings related hysteria is coming from people stumbling over each other to prove how much they don't care. Most of the content in the rankings thread consists of reasonable inquiries. Now we get a stickied thread about how much we don't care. How very important.

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20130312
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby 20130312 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:46 pm

I was going to ED Michigan, but now that it's only #10 and being referred to as MiShitGone I'm going to have to ED UVA. #whitepeopleproblems

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:53 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Had an alum come and speak at our school this morning. Guy was a managing partner at a big law firm in Dallas, and he said that usually stuff: would not have gotten into CU Law today, would not have gotten his big law job with the grades he had at CU Law today, had to be in the top 5% of a T25 school for them to even look at your resume or had to "know a managing partner." Exception was the local school (SMU). Not in the T25 but would still look at the very top of the class. I'm assuming they would go deeper than 5% at UT or other schools but he didn't say anything about that. Also top 25 schools was his distinction, never said T14 FWIW.

Super depressing. Not even sure why career services invited him in... I think his kid was in town to look at undergrad schools and he just had some time to kill. Basic message was that literally no one could get a job at his firm from the law school he was speaking at?

Anyway seems to suggest that at least on firm in dallas does keep up with the rankings. The question was, initially, do you keep up with the rankings, and his answer was "if anyone tells you otherwise they are lying." Dunno obviously this was just one dood.


The only firms in Dallas who are that picky that I know of are Susman Godfrey and (maybe) Bickel and Brewer. Maybe also McKool Smith? But those are all litigation boutique firms. The bigtex firms in Dallas and the more national biglaw firms take well below 5% at UT and other schools. What the guy is probably conveying is if the hiring partner isn't familiar with your law school and then goes to check up to see what rank your law school is, well than it will probably be bad news if your school isn't within a certain range. If the firm already does OCI at say WUSTL, the firm is not going to stop doing OCI at WUSTL b/c of a drop in rank and will probably not even know that such a drop in rank happened. If the firm doesn't do OCI at a school but has hired from that school before (and has had success with those people), then they will still treat those people who mail in their application the same. If rankings matter for employees, it's to fill in gaps of ignorance.

Another good potential takeaway from this: Don't trust what partners say about firm hiring unless they are the hiring partner or have worked hiring committees. A random partner may know what the hiring process is like or he might not have a clue. It's kind of like asking a law professor for advise on applying to law schools. Sure, they might be keeping up with current admissions standards, but they might not have a clue.


Yeah this is what I was thinking as well. Good point on the fact that this guy wasn't a hiring partner. I suppose if the firm never gets resumes from Washington and Lee it might check the rankings to see if that school is in the top 25 or so. Yeah only going top 5% at UT wasn't what he was trying to say I don't think, because that doesn't make any sense.

CU brings in alums all the time for 8:15 free coffee/bagel chats, and this guy was mr. wednesday. I think some of us who went (five in total today) thought it was strange that he was speaking to CU students and you could basically conclude by his comments that even if you were top 5% at CU, you would not get an interview at his firm because CU wasn't in the top 25 law schools. (Hunton and Williams btw) I would think that if I had super grades I could resume/coverletter his firm and expect to be considered. Seemed harsh. He did say that CU was a "fantastic law school," which makes sense because he went here, but apparently not fantastic enough for even its top students to get a look at his super cool firm. Dunno maybe he misspoke.

rad lulz
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby rad lulz » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:17 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dale
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Dale » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:30 pm

Whether the rankings are senseless or not, they certainly carry a legacy of importance. No one wants his or her school to fall off the tier 1 bandwagon. The higher up you go the tighter it becomes. Dropping out of the T-6 would be a major disappointment. Even the MVP change to PBV will likely bring stress to some, joy to others―no one moves to Ann Arbor because it is trendier than San Francisco.

Whatever one thinks of the USNWR rankings, at least they have been reliable in keeping the same schools in the T-14. That consistency is good news for all law students.

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R86
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby R86 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:30 pm

:D
Last edited by R86 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby rad lulz » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:36 pm

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Tom Joad
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Tom Joad » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:38 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:Rankings only matter if law firms ever re-evaluate which OCIs they will go to and the GPA cutoffs they use for schools. Do firms ever change their OCI traditions?

When they do (see the economic crash), it's not based on USNWR fluctuations from year to year. Decisions about where a firm does OCI take into account the yield from certain schools and keeping up relations at certain schools they like. It's not like "oh, we're doing less recruiting, let's stop OCIing at schools ranked less than 20 now."

Example: Hypothetical firm in FL is hurt by economic crash. Formerly recruited at UVA, Duke, Vandy, Emory UF, FSU, and Stetson. Firm now recruits at UVA and Duke (so they can say they recruit at UVA and Duke, plus they might pick up that hot prospect with FL ties) and UF, FSU, and Stetson (because of tradition and to keep up relations). Hypothetical firm drops Vandy (out of the way school, small, few kids from FL with the requisite grades that they would hypothetically offer, think only 3 or 4) and Emory (few FL people, not the name brand recognition of UVA and Duke). The firm likes Vandy and Emory people, but counts on those kids to apply outside of OCI. The yearly fluctuations of Vandy and Emory don't play into it, nor does whether Stetson is a TT or TTT (it's not gonna be more well thought of than UF or FSU).

Hope that makes some sense.

Thanks for the response. I kind of get it.

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Dany
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Dany » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:39 pm

Dale wrote:Whether the rankings are senseless or not, they certainly carry a legacy of importance. No one wants his or her school to fall off the tier 1 bandwagon. The higher up you go the tighter it becomes. Dropping out of the T-6 would be a major disappointment. Even the MVP change to PBV will likely bring stress to some, joy to others―no one moves to Ann Arbor because it is trendier than San Francisco.

Whatever one thinks of the USNWR rankings, at least they have been reliable in keeping the same schools in the T-14. That consistency is good news for all law students.

You should probably just not post.

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JoeMo
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby JoeMo » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:41 pm

Dany wrote:
Dale wrote:Whether the rankings are senseless or not, they certainly carry a legacy of importance. No one wants his or her school to fall off the tier 1 bandwagon. The higher up you go the tighter it becomes. Dropping out of the T-6 would be a major disappointment. Even the MVP change to PBV will likely bring stress to some, joy to others―no one moves to Ann Arbor because it is trendier than San Francisco.

Whatever one thinks of the USNWR rankings, at least they have been reliable in keeping the same schools in the T-14. That consistency is good news for all law students.

You should probably just not post.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:43 pm

Dale wrote:Whether the rankings are senseless or not, they certainly carry a legacy of importance. No one wants his or her school to fall off the tier 1 bandwagon. The higher up you go the tighter it becomes. Dropping out of the T-6 would be a major disappointment. Even the MVP change to PBV will likely bring stress to some, joy to others―no one moves to Ann Arbor because it is trendier than San Francisco.

Whatever one thinks of the USNWR rankings, at least they have been reliable in keeping the same schools in the T-14. That consistency is good news for all law students.


No one thought Chicago was falling apart when it went to 7 and Berkeley went to 6 a few years. No one thought Berkeley was actually a top 6 school, because while the USNWR generally track what people think are the best schools, the rankings don't always line-up with the general consensus. Another example: Not too many people actually think Minnesota is a better law school than BU or GW.

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20160810
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby 20160810 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:50 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
Dale wrote:Whether the rankings are senseless or not, they certainly carry a legacy of importance. No one wants his or her school to fall off the tier 1 bandwagon. The higher up you go the tighter it becomes. Dropping out of the T-6 would be a major disappointment. Even the MVP change to PBV will likely bring stress to some, joy to others―no one moves to Ann Arbor because it is trendier than San Francisco.

Whatever one thinks of the USNWR rankings, at least they have been reliable in keeping the same schools in the T-14. That consistency is good news for all law students.


No one thought Chicago was falling apart when it went to 7 and Berkeley went to 6 a few years. No one thought Berkeley was actually a top 6 school, because while the USNWR generally track what people think are the best schools, the rankings don't always line-up with the general consensus. Another example: Not too many people actually think Minnesota is a better law school than BU or GW.

Arizona State is way better than BosTTTon U

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romothesavior
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:47 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Dale wrote:Whether the rankings are senseless or not, they certainly carry a legacy of importance. No one wants his or her school to fall off the tier 1 bandwagon. The higher up you go the tighter it becomes. Dropping out of the T-6 would be a major disappointment. Even the MVP change to PBV will likely bring stress to some, joy to others―no one moves to Ann Arbor because it is trendier than San Francisco.

Whatever one thinks of the USNWR rankings, at least they have been reliable in keeping the same schools in the T-14. That consistency is good news for all law students.

This is idiocy. There are plenty of reasons to pick M over B besides ranking.

You're justifying the importance of the rankings in terms of the rankings. Which seems circular.

A legacy of importance bro.

PhiAlphaFLBeta
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby PhiAlphaFLBeta » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:27 pm

Only way I can see the rankings being relevant in any way is that we (0Ls) take them so seriously that we'll choose where we apply and enroll based on the USNews ranks. This affects the quality of students that school can recruit, which in theory would improve the quality of the graduates from that school. Long term, rankings could indirectly alter how law firms view schools.

Best advice I ever received was from a retired CT appellate court judge who told me to go where I can get the best legal education for the least amount of money regardless of rank.

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R86
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby R86 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:37 pm

:D
Last edited by R86 on Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

071816
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby 071816 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:39 pm

PhiAlphaFLBeta wrote:Only way I can see the rankings being relevant in any way is that we (0Ls) take them so seriously that we'll choose where we apply and enroll based on the USNews ranks. This affects the quality of students that school can recruit, which in theory would improve the quality of the graduates from that school. Long term, rankings could indirectly alter how law firms view schools.

Best advice I ever received was from a retired CT appellate court judge who told me to go where I can get the best legal education for the least amount of money regardless of rank.


That's actually pretty misleading/shitty advice.

Void
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Void » Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:53 pm

chimp wrote:
PhiAlphaFLBeta wrote:Only way I can see the rankings being relevant in any way is that we (0Ls) take them so seriously that we'll choose where we apply and enroll based on the USNews ranks. This affects the quality of students that school can recruit, which in theory would improve the quality of the graduates from that school. Long term, rankings could indirectly alter how law firms view schools.

Best advice I ever received was from a retired CT appellate court judge who told me to go where I can get the best legal education for the least amount of money regardless of rank.


That's actually pretty misleading/shitty advice.


Yup. Legal education is legal education, almost anywhere you go. Sure, there might be some disparity between the educational opportunities you'd get at Yale and a TTTT (which, assuming you can get into Yale, might give you a ridiculous scholarship and maybe a Ferrari), but both will teach you pretty much the same stuff about Torts, Contracts, Civil Procedure, Constitutional Law, and Property. Outside of the basic 1L classes, your education is essentially up to you, wherever you go. Meanwhile, there is an obvious disparity between career options you'd have at the same schools. So, like, that retired judge wasn't totally correct, dude.

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Br3v
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Br3v » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:19 pm

Welcome to applying to law school where the employment prospects are made up and the rankings don't matter.

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