Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
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jk2011
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby jk2011 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:24 am

JusticeHarlan wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:The USNWR rankings are similar to the Nielsen TV ratings. In the case of Nielsen, they survey less than 1% of the population―the other 99% are irrelevant. Argue that flawed method as much as you want, the bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR. Advertisers pay the BIG bucks to the highest rated shows while the lower rated shows are cancelled. The difference, of course, is that the lower rated law schools are not cancelled, they just march on happily collecting their tuitions.

In a manner of speaking, law firms use USNWR the way advertisers use Nielsen. The T-14, are “must buys” with special consideration to YSH, T-6, and PBV. One could also argue that dropping out of Tier-1 is like having your show going from network to cable.


This.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Blessedassurance » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:33 am

Renne Walker wrote:The USNWR rankings are similar to the Nielsen TV ratings. In the case of Nielsen, they survey less than 1% of the population―the other 99% are irrelevant. Argue that flawed method as much as you want, the bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR. Advertisers pay the BIG bucks to the highest rated shows while the lower rated shows are cancelled. The difference, of course, is that the lower rated law schools are not cancelled, they just march on happily collecting their tuitions.

In a manner of speaking, law firms use USNWR the way advertisers use Nielsen. The T-14, are “must buys” with special consideration to YSH, T-6, and PBV. One could also argue that dropping out of Tier-1 is like having your show going from network to cable.


Berkeley is Georgetown's peer.

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Br3v
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Br3v » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:37 am

"Rankings are stupid calm down"

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Stanford4Me
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Stanford4Me » Sat Mar 17, 2012 11:43 am

Does this mean I can go to Loyola at sticker?

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romothesavior
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:12 pm

DaftAndDirect wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:The USNWR rankings are similar to the Nielsen TV ratings. In the case of Nielsen, they survey less than 1% of the population―the other 99% are irrelevant. Argue that flawed method as much as you want, the bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR. Advertisers pay the BIG bucks to the highest rated shows while the lower rated shows are cancelled. The difference, of course, is that the lower rated law schools are not cancelled, they just march on happily collecting their tuitions.

In a manner of speaking, law firms use USNWR the way advertisers use Nielsen. The T-14, are “must buys” with special consideration to YSH, T-6, and PBV. One could also argue that dropping out of Tier-1 is like having your show going from network to cable.


I like this analogy.

This analogy is among the worst I've ever seen in my life.

The USNWR rankings are in no way, shape, or form like the freaking TV ratings. For those of you who know nothing about statistics, the methodology used by Nielson is a little something known as "sampling." USNWR is compiled using some sampling methods, but also by collecting data from schools that is flat out wrong, not checked for any form of accuracy, and uses metrics that make almost no sense and are easily doctored (shit like expenditures per student and acceptance rate). It is a faulty comparison.

Second, law firms absolutely do not use the USNWR rankings like advertisers use TV ratings. Most firms either have no idea what school is ranked where, or care so little that it has zero effect on short-term hiring trends. Arizona State is no better a school than it was 2 years ago. WUSTL is no worse than it was two years ago. Most firms choose to hire from a law school because the school is reputable in the region or because the school has connections with the firm. The notion that law firm hiring committees are sitting around their boardroom tables with a copy of USNWR deciding where to hire from is one of the most persistently idiotic myths on this site. USNWR rankings are a (very) rough proxy for job prospects; they are not a driver of job prospects.

tl;dr: Terrible analogy was terrible.

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Guchster
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Guchster » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:20 pm

DaftAndDirect wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:The USNWR rankings are similar to the Nielsen TV ratings. In the case of Nielsen, they survey less than 1% of the population―the other 99% are irrelevant. Argue that flawed method as much as you want, the bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR. Advertisers pay the BIG bucks to the highest rated shows while the lower rated shows are cancelled. The difference, of course, is that the lower rated law schools are not cancelled, they just march on happily collecting their tuitions.

In a manner of speaking, law firms use USNWR the way advertisers use Nielsen. The T-14, are “must buys” with special consideration to YSH, T-6, and PBV. One could also argue that dropping out of Tier-1 is like having your show going from network to cable.


I like this analogy.



Lol'd at "bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR"

GTFO.

Analogies: Don't force them. This reminds me of that douchebag in class who wants to make every one of his stupid, illogical, and irrelevant points about crim law through the scope of sperm whales (true story, tho).

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Antilles Haven
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Antilles Haven » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:23 pm

Renne Walker wrote:The USNWR rankings are similar to the Nielsen TV ratings. In the case of Nielsen, they survey less than 1% of the population―the other 99% are irrelevant. Argue that flawed method as much as you want, the bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR. Advertisers pay the BIG bucks to the highest rated shows while the lower rated shows are cancelled. The difference, of course, is that the lower rated law schools are not cancelled, they just march on happily collecting their tuitions.

In a manner of speaking, law firms use USNWR the way advertisers use Nielsen. The T-14, are “must buys” with special consideration to YSH, T-6, and PBV. One could also argue that dropping out of Tier-1 is like having your show going from network to cable.

I'd like to be the 7th person to mention how bad this post was.

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FryBreadPower
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby FryBreadPower » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:34 pm

Antilles Haven wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:The USNWR rankings are similar to the Nielsen TV ratings. In the case of Nielsen, they survey less than 1% of the population―the other 99% are irrelevant. Argue that flawed method as much as you want, the bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR. Advertisers pay the BIG bucks to the highest rated shows while the lower rated shows are cancelled. The difference, of course, is that the lower rated law schools are not cancelled, they just march on happily collecting their tuitions.

In a manner of speaking, law firms use USNWR the way advertisers use Nielsen. The T-14, are “must buys” with special consideration to YSH, T-6, and PBV. One could also argue that dropping out of Tier-1 is like having your show going from network to cable.

I'd like to be the 7th person to mention how bad this post was.


Appropriate 'tar :P

sparty99
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby sparty99 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:41 pm

Antilles Haven wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:The USNWR rankings are similar to the Nielsen TV ratings. In the case of Nielsen, they survey less than 1% of the population―the other 99% are irrelevant. Argue that flawed method as much as you want, the bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR. Advertisers pay the BIG bucks to the highest rated shows while the lower rated shows are cancelled. The difference, of course, is that the lower rated law schools are not cancelled, they just march on happily collecting their tuitions.

In a manner of speaking, law firms use USNWR the way advertisers use Nielsen. The T-14, are “must buys” with special consideration to YSH, T-6, and PBV. One could also argue that dropping out of Tier-1 is like having your show going from network to cable.

I'd like to be the 7th person to mention how bad this post was.


This was a great analogy and I agree. The University of Illinois was once a great, trendy law school. However, the dynamics have changed and they are no longer wanted. See Gossip Girl.

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Guchster
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Guchster » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:42 pm

sparty99 wrote:This was a great analogy and I agree. The University of Illinois was once a great, trendy law school. However, the dynamics have changed and they are no longer wanted. See Gossip Girl.


What does this post even mean :?:

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FryBreadPower
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby FryBreadPower » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:45 pm

sparty99 wrote:]

This was a great analogy and I agree. The University of Illinois was once a great, trendy law school. However, the dynamics have changed and they are no longer wanted. See Gossip Girl.


Image

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Renne Walker
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby Renne Walker » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:42 pm

sparty99 wrote:This was a great analogy and I agree.

Thanks. Some people “get it,” some never will. I suppose for those special people I should make it Crayola simple, #1 is good, #101 not as good. On the other hand one could argue there are more law students at schools ranked from #101 to +200 than attend the top 100. So maybe they are on to something!

And yes, I think we have figured out that if a school jumps 3 points America’s law firms are not going to immediately go gas up the jet. :roll:

taxguy
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby taxguy » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:58 pm

FryBreadPower wrote:
Antilles Haven wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:The USNWR rankings are similar to the Nielsen TV ratings. In the case of Nielsen, they survey less than 1% of the population―the other 99% are irrelevant. Argue that flawed method as much as you want, the bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR. Advertisers pay the BIG bucks to the highest rated shows while the lower rated shows are cancelled. The difference, of course, is that the lower rated law schools are not cancelled, they just march on happily collecting their tuitions.

In a manner of speaking, law firms use USNWR the way advertisers use Nielsen. The T-14, are “must buys” with special consideration to YSH, T-6, and PBV. One could also argue that dropping out of Tier-1 is like having your show going from network to cable.

I'd like to be the 7th person to mention how bad this post was.


Appropriate 'tar :P


Get real, folks. Of course the rankings are idiotic and certainly have questionable methodology. However, perception can become reality, as with the Nielson ratings; although the Nielson ratings do have a strong statistical backing for their sampling. The perception by both law firms and many of their clients is that the top ranked law schools produce a better product. Thus, these schools tend to have greater number of firms recruiting than found at other lower tiered schools. The only exception is that if a student attends the best known ( interpreted as ranked) law school in a state, law firms in that state will hire kids from there as long as they have a strong GPA. All other kids attending other schools will have a hard time getting a job.

Does attending a lower ranked law school mean that you won't get hired? No! There are kids hired out of all schools including Florida Coastal and Cooley;however, you will need to network, intern and use your connections a lot more than if you attended a top law school. I don't even know why anyone is arguing about this. However, I will say this again, if you learn to network well, learn to interview well, really hustle for internships, you will substantially increase your job options. Thus, this perception in favor of highly ranked schools can be overcome with good people skills and a lot of hussle. The firms just have to get to know you and know your ability.

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breadbucket
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby breadbucket » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:38 pm

taxguy wrote:
FryBreadPower wrote:
Antilles Haven wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:The USNWR rankings are similar to the Nielsen TV ratings. In the case of Nielsen, they survey less than 1% of the population―the other 99% are irrelevant. Argue that flawed method as much as you want, the bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR. Advertisers pay the BIG bucks to the highest rated shows while the lower rated shows are cancelled. The difference, of course, is that the lower rated law schools are not cancelled, they just march on happily collecting their tuitions.

In a manner of speaking, law firms use USNWR the way advertisers use Nielsen. The T-14, are “must buys” with special consideration to YSH, T-6, and PBV. One could also argue that dropping out of Tier-1 is like having your show going from network to cable.

I'd like to be the 7th person to mention how bad this post was.


Appropriate 'tar :P


Get real, folks. Of course the rankings are idiotic and certainly have questionable methodology. However, perception can become reality, as with the Nielson ratings; although the Nielson ratings do have a strong statistical backing for their sampling. The perception by both law firms and many of their clients is that the top ranked law schools produce a better product. Thus, these schools tend to have greater number of firms recruiting than found at other lower tiered schools. The only exception is that if a student attends the best known ( interpreted as ranked) law school in a state, law firms in that state will hire kids from there as long as they have a strong GPA. All other kids attending other schools will have a hard time getting a job.

Does attending a lower ranked law school mean that you won't get hired? No! There are kids hired out of all schools including Florida Coastal and Cooley;however, you will need to network, intern and use your connections a lot more than if you attended a top law school. I don't even know why anyone is arguing about this. However, I will say this again, if you learn to network well, learn to interview well, really hustle for internships, you will substantially increase your job options. Thus, this perception in favor of highly ranked schools can be overcome with good people skills and a lot of hussle. The firms just have to get to know you and know your ability.



TLS people seem to live in this reality where because they find UNSWR to be corrupt, flawed, and/or not credible that means the rankings are useless. However, if you ever happen to study communication/rhetorical criticism, you'll learn that perception is indeed reality. If people find the rankings to be important, then they are indeed important; perception equals belief. This is the same way that phobias function; a belief/perception, no matter how irrational, equals reality for that individual. The field of law is unfortunately has a phobia of unprestigous things, Think NLJ250, V5, T-14. Thus, because the perception and desire for prestige exist, the rankings carry actionable weight. Schools game the system to improve their rankings, even "prestigous" universities like Georgetown do this. Ponder for a moment the unfortunate American perceptions that all Muslims are terrorists, or that all Middle Eastern countries are state sponsors of terror; This perception is indeed false on both counts, but these perceptions have lead to real actions with real consequences. So despite how the rankings are actually formed, the perception is enough to make them valuable. How many people on TLS say t-14 or bust, make differentiations using the t-6, or that the t20-t30 are regional schools. These are realities based on percepions that people have formed because of beliefs about rankings.

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romothesavior
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:15 pm

breadbucket wrote:TLS people seem to live in this reality where because they find UNSWR to be corrupt, flawed, and/or not credible that means the rankings are useless. However, if you ever happen to study communication/rhetorical criticism, you'll learn that perception is indeed reality.

But the thing is, few people outside of law school deans and prospective students perceive them as important. Yes, you're right that law is a prestige-whoring industry, but it doesn't follow that the USNWR rankings are therefore meaningful. HYS are the most prestigious schools in the country because they are the best, not because USNWR says they're the best. Cooley doesn't suck because it is a TTTT according to USNWR, they suck because they are a laughingstock of a school. You're conflating the cause and the effect.

I entered WUSTL when it was ranked 18th. If I graduate from WUSTL when it is a T23 or something, it will have virtually no impact on the value of my degree, and no impact on the job prospects of myself or my peers. That's what we mean when we say rankings are meaningless; they have no real world impact on the students at the school. No firm is going to start pulling out of OCI because of fluctuations in rankings or valuing degrees more or less because of USNWR. Look at the NLJ 250 statistics over the past 5 years, and then compare that to the USNWR rankings. You'll see that fluctuations in USNWR have not impacted how schools place relative to their peers. Again, USNWR is a rough proxy for job placement, but it is not a driver for job placement.

You guys can repeat this "perception = reality" schtick ad naseum, and maybe there is some truth to it in the abstract, but until people outside of the hordes of mouth-breathing 0Ls start perceiving them as important, then the reality is that they aren't that important.

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spleenworship
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby spleenworship » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:22 pm

romothesavior wrote:
breadbucket wrote:TLS people seem to live in this reality where because they find UNSWR to be corrupt, flawed, and/or not credible that means the rankings are useless. However, if you ever happen to study communication/rhetorical criticism, you'll learn that perception is indeed reality.

But the thing is, few people outside of law school deans and prospective students perceive them as important. Yes, you're right that law is a prestige-whoring industry, but it doesn't follow that the USNWR rankings are therefore meaningful. HYS are the most prestigious schools in the country because they are the best, not because USNWR says they're the best. Cooley doesn't suck because it is a TTTT according to USNWR, they suck because they are a laughingstock of a school. You're conflating the cause and the effect.

I entered WUSTL when it was ranked 18th. If I graduate from WUSTL when it is a T23 or something, it will have virtually no impact on the value of my degree, and no impact on the job prospects of myself or my peers. That's what we mean when we say rankings are meaningless; they have no real world impact on the students at the school. No firm is going to start pulling out of OCI because of fluctuations in rankings or valuing degrees more or less because of USNWR. Look at the NLJ 250 statistics over the past 5 years, and then compare that to the USNWR rankings. You'll see that fluctuations in USNWR have not impacted how schools place relative to their peers. Again, USNWR is a rough proxy for job placement, but it is not a driver for job placement.

You guys can repeat this "perception = reality" schtick ad naseum, and maybe there is some truth to it in the abstract, but until people outside of the hordes of mouth-breathing 0Ls start perceiving them as important, then the reality is that they aren't that important.



+1

While my job opportunities are different than those of the T14 peeps, fact is that my schools local rep allows us to have job opportunities that are comparable with being in a school ranked 15-30 despite being a low T2. Employers come there because we are local, they hired us for internships, they went there, and they teach there. Also because not many elite grads want to live here. So we do OK. Perception=reality, sure.... but the employers don't give a shit about USNWR rankings, the perceive what the other attorneys in this market see. That is their reality. It doesn't really have shit to do rankings.

ETA; also, why I am arguing in here with the mouth-breathing 0Ls who think they have some sort of philosophical ultimate truth (perception=reality) answer that the fricking 1-3Ls don't have after having ACTUALLY BEEN IN the schools and job market?

09042014
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:29 pm

Renne Walker wrote:The USNWR rankings are similar to the Nielsen TV ratings. In the case of Nielsen, they survey less than 1% of the population―the other 99% are irrelevant. Argue that flawed method as much as you want, the bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR. Advertisers pay the BIG bucks to the highest rated shows while the lower rated shows are cancelled. The difference, of course, is that the lower rated law schools are not cancelled, they just march on happily collecting their tuitions.

In a manner of speaking, law firms use USNWR the way advertisers use Nielsen. The T-14, are “must buys” with special consideration to YSH, T-6, and PBV. One could also argue that dropping out of Tier-1 is like having your show going from network to cable.


Law firms do not use USNWR. If USNEWS made ASU a T14 next year and made Duke T2, firms would still recruit heavily at Duke and would still think ASU is a TTT.

USNEWS is a (poor) attempt to gauge the prestige of law schools. Yale isn't elite because USNEWS says so, USNEWS says it's elite because Yale is elite.

The AP college poll doesn't MAKE football teams be good, being good makes them do well on the poll.

The only people who use this is are 0L's, 0L's parents, and werido alumni.

sparty99
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby sparty99 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:33 pm

spleenworship wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
breadbucket wrote:TLS people seem to live in this reality where because they find UNSWR to be corrupt, flawed, and/or not credible that means the rankings are useless. However, if you ever happen to study communication/rhetorical criticism, you'll learn that perception is indeed reality.

But the thing is, few people outside of law school deans and prospective students perceive them as important. Yes, you're right that law is a prestige-whoring industry, but it doesn't follow that the USNWR rankings are therefore meaningful. HYS are the most prestigious schools in the country because they are the best, not because USNWR says they're the best. Cooley doesn't suck because it is a TTTT according to USNWR, they suck because they are a laughingstock of a school. You're conflating the cause and the effect.

I entered WUSTL when it was ranked 18th. If I graduate from WUSTL when it is a T23 or something, it will have virtually no impact on the value of my degree, and no impact on the job prospects of myself or my peers. That's what we mean when we say rankings are meaningless; they have no real world impact on the students at the school. No firm is going to start pulling out of OCI because of fluctuations in rankings or valuing degrees more or less because of USNWR. Look at the NLJ 250 statistics over the past 5 years, and then compare that to the USNWR rankings. You'll see that fluctuations in USNWR have not impacted how schools place relative to their peers. Again, USNWR is a rough proxy for job placement, but it is not a driver for job placement.

You guys can repeat this "perception = reality" schtick ad naseum, and maybe there is some truth to it in the abstract, but until people outside of the hordes of mouth-breathing 0Ls start perceiving them as important, then the reality is that they aren't that important.



+1

While my job opportunities are different than those of the T14 peeps, fact is that my schools local rep allows us to have job opportunities that are comparable with being in a school ranked 15-30 despite being a low T2. Employers come there because we are local, they hired us for internships, they went there, and they teach there. Also because not many elite grads want to live here. So we do OK. Perception=reality, sure.... but the employers don't give a shit about USNWR rankings, the perceive what the other attorneys in this market see. That is their reality. It doesn't really have shit to do rankings.

ETA; also, why I am arguing in here with the mouth-breathing 0Ls who think they have some sort of philosophical ultimate truth (perception=reality) answer that the fricking 1-3Ls don't have after having ACTUALLY BEEN IN the schools and job market?


Dear TLS: please get over yourself. Rankings don't mean shit. Employers don't care, clients don't care, only your momma and pretentious friend from (insert Ivy league) care! Please get over your vault rankings, your NLJ 250, and US New rankings. NONE of them mean anything. The law might be a prestige-whoring industry, but so is I-Banking, Consulting, and many others. It is what it is. But none of it means anything. So WUSTL is ranked 23, who cares. What does that have to do with the price of rice in China? What exactly does going to a school ranked 15 - 25 get you that a school ranked 45-65 get you?

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WhiteGuy5
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby WhiteGuy5 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:42 pm

sparty99 wrote:Dear TLS: please get over yourself. Rankings don't mean shit. Employers don't care, clients don't care, only your momma and pretentious friend from (insert Ivy league) care! Please get over your vault rankings, your NLJ 250, and US New rankings. NONE of them mean anything. The law might be a prestige-whoring industry, but so is I-Banking, Consulting, and many others. It is what it is. But none of it means anything. So WUSTL is ranked 23, who cares. What does that have to do with the price of rice in China? What exactly does going to a school ranked 15 - 25 get you that a school ranked 45-65 get you?


You mad.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:01 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:The USNWR rankings are similar to the Nielsen TV ratings. In the case of Nielsen, they survey less than 1% of the population―the other 99% are irrelevant. Argue that flawed method as much as you want, the bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR. Advertisers pay the BIG bucks to the highest rated shows while the lower rated shows are cancelled. The difference, of course, is that the lower rated law schools are not cancelled, they just march on happily collecting their tuitions.

In a manner of speaking, law firms use USNWR the way advertisers use Nielsen. The T-14, are “must buys” with special consideration to YSH, T-6, and PBV. One could also argue that dropping out of Tier-1 is like having your show going from network to cable.


Law firms do not use USNWR. If USNEWS made ASU a T14 next year and made Duke T2, firms would still recruit heavily at Duke and would still think ASU is a TTT.

USNEWS is a (poor) attempt to gauge the prestige of law schools. Yale isn't elite because USNEWS says so, USNEWS says it's elite because Yale is elite.

The AP college poll doesn't MAKE football teams be good, being good makes them do well on the poll.

The only people who use this is are 0L's, 0L's parents, and werido alumni.

This.

What firms think of law schools is an input, not an output, of the ratings. Considering that only 15% of the rankings are based on that survey, there's gonna be a ton of noise in what comes out. And then add in the fact that only something like 12% of practitioners responded to USNWR anyways, what does that say about how much the vast majority of lawyers actually care about US News?

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FryBreadPower
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby FryBreadPower » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:02 pm

Renne Walker wrote:
sparty99 wrote:This was a great analogy and I agree.

Thanks. Some people “get it,” some never will. I suppose for those special people I should make it Crayola simple, #1 is good, #101 not as good. On the other hand one could argue there are more law students at schools ranked from #101 to +200 than attend the top 100. So maybe they are on to something!

And yes, I think we have figured out that if a school jumps 3 points America’s law firms are not going to immediately go gas up the jet. :roll:


People aren't arguing your viewpoint on the USNWR rankings. People are merely saying that your analogy sucked (which it did). Nielson ratings are based on a statistically relevant sample (or a simple random sample). Are there flaws in it? Yes. But those flaws come down to the self-selection bias of people who allow the transmitter to be affixed to their box and Nielson still be unable to catch up with the times and accurately count online viewings of television shows (actually a big issue with certain shows like, "gossip girl" due to their largely online following, which is funny given a previous comment). USNWR are not flawed because of any sort of statistical probability in sample collection. They are flawed for an entirely different reason. Also, ad/entertainment execs. use nielson ratings in an ENTIRELY different way from how relevant individuals use the USNWR rankings. So, the rankings are no way comparable to Nielson ratings in either their composition or in the way they are used/viewed.

Thus, while your viewpoints on USNWR may be valid, your analogy sucked.

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breadbucket
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby breadbucket » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:04 pm

Yes, maybe the firms don't care, and maybe they do care. I do not work for a firm, and therefore I do not know, nor do I pretend to know, what it is they use as criteria for hiring. Why is Yale number one? Who knows. At the end of the day, regardless of rankings, IMHO good schools are considered good schools because of perception. All law schools teach the same things, but its because they are perceived as elite law schools that they are able to attract the best students, the best faculty, and the best employers. I suppose this is not limited to UNSWR, this is a problem with how people find the need to have hierarchical ordering systems. You said it yourself, "Yale is the best law school" and it is the best because it is the best, because people perceive it to be the best. If one day all the 180s apply to cooley, and all the employers OCI at cooley, and all the Harvard Alums go teach at cooley, and everyone puts all their faith and money into cooley, then cooley will be the best. The system of law school prestige, regardless of USNWR, is a faith based system. It exists because people believe it exists

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FryBreadPower
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby FryBreadPower » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:07 pm

breadbucket wrote:Yes, maybe the firms don't care, and maybe they do care. I do not work for a firm, and therefore I do not know, nor do I pretend to know, what it is they use as criteria for hiring. Why is Yale number one? Who knows. At the end of the day, regardless of rankings, IMHO good schools are considered good schools because of perception. All law schools teach the same things, but its because they are perceived as elite law schools that they are able to attract the best students, the best faculty, and the best employers. I suppose this is not limited to UNSWR, this is a problem with how people find the need to have hierarchical ordering systems. You said it yourself, "Yale is the best law school" and it is the best because it is the best, because people perceive it to be the best. If one day all the 180s applied to cooley, and all the employers OCI at cooley, and all the Harvard Alums go teach at cooley, and everyone put all their faith and money into cooley, then cooley would be the best. The system of law school prestige, regardless of USNWR, is a faith based system. It exists because people believe it exists


Except not. In your system, Cooley would be a damn good school because they would have recruited some of the brightest students and professors/legal minds in the country. Thus, them being seen as awesome would be because they would be awesome, not because people believe its awesome.

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WhiteGuy5
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby WhiteGuy5 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:08 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Renne Walker wrote:The USNWR rankings are similar to the Nielsen TV ratings. In the case of Nielsen, they survey less than 1% of the population―the other 99% are irrelevant. Argue that flawed method as much as you want, the bottom line is, what Nielsen says is gospel, ditto USNWR. Advertisers pay the BIG bucks to the highest rated shows while the lower rated shows are cancelled. The difference, of course, is that the lower rated law schools are not cancelled, they just march on happily collecting their tuitions.

In a manner of speaking, law firms use USNWR the way advertisers use Nielsen. The T-14, are “must buys” with special consideration to YSH, T-6, and PBV. One could also argue that dropping out of Tier-1 is like having your show going from network to cable.


Law firms do not use USNWR. If USNEWS made ASU a T14 next year and made Duke T2, firms would still recruit heavily at Duke and would still think ASU is a TTT.

USNEWS is a (poor) attempt to gauge the prestige of law schools. Yale isn't elite because USNEWS says so, USNEWS says it's elite because Yale is elite.

The AP college poll doesn't MAKE football teams be good, being good makes them do well on the poll.

The only people who use this is are 0L's, 0L's parents, and werido alumni.

This.

What firms think of law schools is an input, not an output, of the ratings. Considering that only 15% of the rankings are based on that survey, there's gonna be a ton of noise in what comes out. And then add in the fact that only something like 12% of practitioners responded to USNWR anyways, what does that say about how much the vast majority of lawyers actually care about US News?


I'm not defending the rankings, but this is stupid. "Yale isn't good because USNEWS says so, USNEWS says it's good because Yale is good." Exactly...the rankings try to define what is "good/elite" -- and if they aren't measuring it in the objective sense, they are measuring what schools others think are "good," which is the whole point anyway. If it's merely validating the perception people have of these schools, then the rankings DO matter. Duh?

Also, I think because the "top" schools get to pick the best and the brightest of the applicant pool, that has an impact on how "good" they are in the objective sense. Better/smarter students are going to make a school better and more attractive to those looking in.

breadbucket wrote:Yes, maybe the firms don't care, and maybe they do care.


Firms DO care as a matter of fact. There is both hard data and consistent anecdotal evidence to back this up.
Last edited by WhiteGuy5 on Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BearsGrl
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Re: Rankings are stupid. Calm down.

Postby BearsGrl » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:09 pm

FryBreadPower wrote:
breadbucket wrote:Yes, maybe the firms don't care, and maybe they do care. I do not work for a firm, and therefore I do not know, nor do I pretend to know, what it is they use as criteria for hiring. Why is Yale number one? Who knows. At the end of the day, regardless of rankings, IMHO good schools are considered good schools because of perception. All law schools teach the same things, but its because they are perceived as elite law schools that they are able to attract the best students, the best faculty, and the best employers. I suppose this is not limited to UNSWR, this is a problem with how people find the need to have hierarchical ordering systems. You said it yourself, "Yale is the best law school" and it is the best because it is the best, because people perceive it to be the best. If one day all the 180s applied to cooley, and all the employers OCI at cooley, and all the Harvard Alums go teach at cooley, and everyone put all their faith and money into cooley, then cooley would be the best. The system of law school prestige, regardless of USNWR, is a faith based system. It exists because people believe it exists


Except not. In your system, Cooley would be a damn good school because they would have recruited some of the brightest students and professors/legal minds in the country. Thus, them being seen as awesome would be because they would be awesome, not because people believe its awesome.


Except that getting a 180 on the LSAT doesn't make you bright. Which is, in and of itself, the perception idea circle effect.




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