The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:50 pm

Your move Campos.

Although I don't understand why NYU and CLS aren't more aggressive about pointing out discrepancies in the annual NLJ 250 hiring report. From the sounds of it it would only help them.
Last edited by Tiago Splitter on Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

timbs4339
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:51 pm

I'm glad Prof. Campos made his post. Now we know a little more that we wouldn't have had he not forced NYU's hand. I'm still wondering why CLS isn't coming out with the same denial though. I don't think there is any different reason, but it doesn't reflect well on the school or the administration.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:51 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:Your move Campos.

Indeed.

NYU wrote:Having trouble knowing what to believe? We have a proposal for Paul Campos: come audit our numbers. We’ll show you a list of all NLJ 250 firms to which we sent associates in 2010 and 2011. Pick a reasonably sized sample from that group, and compare them to firm-verifiable data. Then let us, and the world, know what you find.

Tiago Splitter wrote:Although I don't understand why NYU and CLS aren't more aggressive about pointing out discrepancies in the annual NLJ 250 hiring report.

Yeah, that seems bizarre to me. They must know that a lot of 0Ls care a great deal about those numbers.
Last edited by AntipodeanPhil on Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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skers
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby skers » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:52 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
Bronck wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:
Yeshia90 wrote:NYU responds. Turns out. Everyone was right. Sorta.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

Really respect NYU for coming out swinging on this one.

+1

This is great, and kudos to NYU. They might feel maligned by Campos, but we have learnt a lot about the NLJ 250 numbers because of him. It is good to know that they are misleading in this respect - that so many firms are missing - and comforting to know the actual numbers are larger than the NLJ reports.


Chances of nabbing a job are also better than a lot of people give credit for, considering at some (maybe all?) jd/phd kids aren't able to participate in OCI so the number of jds awarded =/= to jders who could have nabbed big law.

kaiser
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby kaiser » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:52 pm

timbs4339 wrote:I'm glad Prof. Campos made his post. Now we know a little more that we wouldn't have had he not forced NYU's hand. I'm still wondering why CLS isn't coming out with the same denial though. I don't think there is any different reason, but it doesn't reflect well on the school or the administration.


Perhaps they didn't have as much representation in the particular firms that chose not to report? Though this is unlikely seeing as NYU and CLS essentially overlap with regard to where they place students.

PMan99
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby PMan99 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:53 pm

wonder why radlaw hasnt posted in this thread


viewtopic.php?f=23&t=179008&start=175

timbs4339
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:53 pm

kaiser wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:I'm glad Prof. Campos made his post. Now we know a little more that we wouldn't have had he not forced NYU's hand. I'm still wondering why CLS isn't coming out with the same denial though. I don't think there is any different reason, but it doesn't reflect well on the school or the administration.


Perhaps they didn't have as much representation in the particular firms that chose not to report? Though this is unlikely seeing as NYU and CLS essentially overlap with regard to where they place students.


Yeah I doubt that. The big NYC firms tend to hire double-digits from both CLS/NYU and HLS.

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izy223
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby izy223 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:59 pm

"Campos is welcome to audit our numbers"


Good for you NYU- cant wait to be part of the family come september

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birdlaw117
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:00 pm

timbs4339 wrote:I'm glad Prof. Campos made his post. Now we know a little more that we wouldn't have had he not forced NYU's hand. I'm still wondering why CLS isn't coming out with the same denial though. I don't think there is any different reason, but it doesn't reflect well on the school or the administration.

Clearly it's because NYU is lying and not because CLS just doesn't want to give Campos publicity. :roll:

Schools, professors and administrators are all hesitant to talk to people like Campos and those who are writing in the editorials on the Post/NY Times, etc. because it is always twisted as a negative. I've had this conversation with professors here at NYU and they have all received phone calls and won't talk to anyone because it's going to come out wrong because they want a particular story, not necessarily the truth.

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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:31 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:I'm glad Prof. Campos made his post. Now we know a little more that we wouldn't have had he not forced NYU's hand. I'm still wondering why CLS isn't coming out with the same denial though. I don't think there is any different reason, but it doesn't reflect well on the school or the administration.

Clearly it's because NYU is lying and not because CLS just doesn't want to give Campos publicity. :roll:

Schools, professors and administrators are all hesitant to talk to people like Campos and those who are writing in the editorials on the Post/NY Times, etc. because it is always twisted as a negative. I've had this conversation with professors here at NYU and they have all received phone calls and won't talk to anyone because it's going to come out wrong because they want a particular story, not necessarily the truth.


Explaining a discrepancy/answering questions =/= talking to the Post or posting on Campos' blog. CLS could have addressed this with a press release or news like NYU did. They moved lightning fast a few years ago when a paper telling the story of an unemployed Florida law student made it sound like he graduated from CLS. Within a few hours they had pointed out he graduated from Columbia undergrad general studies.

Nothing NYU said is really shocking news and they acted correctly even if their post was really snarky. They pointed out discrepancies in the NLJ250 data that we all knew could have been there and explained why it might have disproportionally affected them vs other schools. They were able to explain the discrepancy and play up their solid biglaw placement. I wonder why my school isn't doing the same even though NYUs explanation applies to them too.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:35 pm

snehpets wrote:lol dude, we get it, you're going to Yale and are better than all of us.

also, as for paul campos, I lost a lot of respect for him when he repeatedly refused to address when going to law school WAS a good idea. I mean obviously law is kind of a shitty career, but it's misleading to complain about the state of law schools 24/7 and then refuse to acknowledge that there are "best possible" circumstance for attending law school rather than just fear-mongering. I get what he's trying to do, and I don't blame him for telling people not to go to TTTs or whatever, but he also just gets kind of ridiculous.


Presumably Paul Campos is in a difficult position. If he draws the line somewhere (t14 at full tuition; tier 1 with $$$, for example), he will presumably make a lot of enemies - especially if his school is not included. I know I wouldn't go to Colorado without scholarship money.

Also, who is the first part of your comment referring to? I'm confused.

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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:38 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
snehpets wrote:lol dude, we get it, you're going to Yale and are better than all of us.

also, as for paul campos, I lost a lot of respect for him when he repeatedly refused to address when going to law school WAS a good idea. I mean obviously law is kind of a shitty career, but it's misleading to complain about the state of law schools 24/7 and then refuse to acknowledge that there are "best possible" circumstance for attending law school rather than just fear-mongering. I get what he's trying to do, and I don't blame him for telling people not to go to TTTs or whatever, but he also just gets kind of ridiculous.


Presumably Paul Campos is in a difficult position. If he draws the line somewhere (t14 at full tuition; tier 1 with $$$, for example), he will presumably make a lot of enemies - especially if his school is not included. I know I wouldn't go to Colorado without scholarship money.

Presumably Campos put himself in whatever position he now finds himself in, so I don't feel bad for him one bit.

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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:43 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:
snehpets wrote:lol dude, we get it, you're going to Yale and are better than all of us.

also, as for paul campos, I lost a lot of respect for him when he repeatedly refused to address when going to law school WAS a good idea. I mean obviously law is kind of a shitty career, but it's misleading to complain about the state of law schools 24/7 and then refuse to acknowledge that there are "best possible" circumstance for attending law school rather than just fear-mongering. I get what he's trying to do, and I don't blame him for telling people not to go to TTTs or whatever, but he also just gets kind of ridiculous.


Presumably Paul Campos is in a difficult position. If he draws the line somewhere (t14 at full tuition; tier 1 with $$$, for example), he will presumably make a lot of enemies - especially if his school is not included. I know I wouldn't go to Colorado without scholarship money.

Presumably Campos put himself in whatever position he now finds himself in, so I don't feel bad for him one bit.

Yes. Also he's pretty much already made all the enemies he could make.

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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:44 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Yes. Also he's pretty much already made all the enemies he could make.

LOL. I hadn't thought about it that way.

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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby run26.2 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:14 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:I went back and looked at 2008 for NYU:

NLJ 250 says: 317
NYU says: 317

In light of NYU's response, any explanation for why these numbers are the same?

I'd say NYU went back and corrected it. But why retrofit the 2008 data and not the 2010?

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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:23 pm

run26.2 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:I went back and looked at 2008 for NYU:

NLJ 250 says: 317
NYU says: 317

In light of NYU's response, any explanation for why these numbers are the same?

I'd say NYU went back and corrected it. But why retrofit the 2008 data and not the 2010?

Pure coincidence since they measure different things.

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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby sunynp » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:32 pm

You guys are assuming that Campos accused the schools of cooking the books. He makes it clear he didn't.




From an update posted the same day as the original post on Campos' blog:
BTW some commenters responding to the original thread on this topic assumed I was accusing Columbia and NYU of intentionally cooking their numbers. I didn't and I'm not. What I'd like to know is why one out of every five BigLaw jobs that Columbia and NYU reported to NALP in 2010 has gone missing in the NLJ stats. There are lots of possible explanations for this that don't include outright fraud by the schools themselves (For instance one possibility is that unusually large percentages of Columbia and NYU grads are taking new non-partner track associate positions, which the NLJ doesn't count when surveying firms).

Simply refusing to answer the question, however, isn't a very good way of getting people to give you the benefit of the doubt.
(emphasis added)


Even if he did outright accuse them, what difference does it make? Schools need as much pressure as possible to release information about jobs. It shouldn't take public shaming in a blog and reporters from the Post to get them to tell the truth about jobs. This shouldn't be a war between the fight for accurate data and resistance from the schools. Transparent emloyment data benefits students making decisions on where to attend, and should be available.

Also, leading schools like NYU and Columbia matter because they tend to set the standard for how lower ranked schools will behave. IF they start releasing completely clear information, including how many fellowships they sponsor to boost their figures, then all the schools would have to report.

It really shouldn't be this difficult to get job data from a school you are paying around $40 -50, 000 a year for the privilege.
Last edited by sunynp on Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby birdlaw117 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:35 pm

sunynp wrote:You guys are assuming that Campos accused the schools of cooking the books. He makes it clear he didn't. Even if he did, what difference does it make? Schools need as much pressure as possible to release information about jobs. It shouldn't take public shaming in a blog and reporters from the Post to get them to tell the truth about jobs.

Also, leading schools like NYU and Columbia matter because they tend to set the standard for how lower ranked schools will behave. IF they start releasing completely clear information, including how many fellowships they sponsor to boost their figures, then all the schools would have to report.

It really shouldn't be this difficult to get job data from a school you are paying around $40 -50, 000 a year for the privilege.

It didn't take that. Turns out NYU reported accurate data and NLJ did not. That is, assuming NYU's explanation is correct.

Campos saw a difference in data (data that shouldn't be the same, mind you) and approached only one of the parties and then seemed to imply that something fishy was going on when he didn't get an immediate response.

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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby run26.2 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:37 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:I went back and looked at 2008 for NYU:

NLJ 250 says: 317
NYU says: 317

In light of NYU's response, any explanation for why these numbers are the same?

I'd say NYU went back and corrected it. But why retrofit the 2008 data and not the 2010?

Pure coincidence since they measure different things.

It is possible that it is coincidence, but the same principal effect that they discuss (namely the hiring of numerous associates by firms that don't report to the NLJ) should lead to a similar result for the earlier year. Unless I'm missing something.

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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:41 pm

run26.2 wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:I went back and looked at 2008 for NYU:

NLJ 250 says: 317
NYU says: 317

In light of NYU's response, any explanation for why these numbers are the same?

I'd say NYU went back and corrected it. But why retrofit the 2008 data and not the 2010?

Pure coincidence since they measure different things.

It is possible that it is coincidence, but the same principal effect that they discuss (namely the hiring of numerous associates by firms that don't report to the NLJ) should lead to a similar result for the earlier year. Unless I'm missing something.

My hunch is that over the last few years, firms may have stopped providing the data to NLJ. So for the 2008 list, perhaps all the firms provided the schools of their incoming associates, which means that the NLJ numbers would match the schools'. Not that hard to imagine that after the layoffs and no-offers of 2008-09, many firms decided it was in their interest to be less transparent about their hiring.

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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby PMan99 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:41 pm

run26.2 wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:I went back and looked at 2008 for NYU:

NLJ 250 says: 317
NYU says: 317

In light of NYU's response, any explanation for why these numbers are the same?

I'd say NYU went back and corrected it. But why retrofit the 2008 data and not the 2010?

Pure coincidence since they measure different things.

It is possible that it is coincidence, but the same principal effect that they discuss (namely the hiring of numerous associates by firms that don't report to the NLJ) should lead to a similar result for the earlier year. Unless I'm missing something.


The sub-250 NLJ250 firms end up pushing NYU over the limit

run26.2
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby run26.2 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:33 pm

PMan99 wrote:The sub-250 NLJ250 firms end up pushing NYU over the limit

Possibly, but given the relatively small percentage that go into the smaller firms, I doubt this would be sufficient to account for the numbers.

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camelcrema
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby camelcrema » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:40 pm

I don't think this has been posted (sorry if it has), but the NY Post accused CLS and NYU of inflating job stats in a recent article. Is this the same phenomenon to which Campos is referring? If so, CLS responded to the allegations here

timbs4339
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:36 pm

camelcrema wrote:I don't think this has been posted (sorry if it has), but the NY Post accused CLS and NYU of inflating job stats in a recent article. Is this the same phenomenon to which Campos is referring? If so, CLS responded to the allegations here


It's the same one. That post doesn't go into why CLS has a discrepancy and other schools don't. It makes sense because they aren't addressing Campos, but at the same time I wished they'd have used the opportunity to go one step further.

ahnhub
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s

Postby ahnhub » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:29 pm

Another takeaway from this is the NLJ is an untrustworthy source of information. They openly claim this is the authoritative list on the best schools for Biglaw prospects (they call it the "Go-To" List) and neglect to mention that 30% of all NLJ 250 firms didn't provide any information at all.




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