The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s Forum

[birdlaw117]

birdlaw, since you seem invested in this conversation, you could try counting the amount of people that went into a firm from the file that lists positions at firms.

I've done it once but cannot remember the numbers.

I could. But that wouldn't really prove or show anything, since it would be moving in the opposite direction of Campos' discrepancy. I just look at it as proof that this is not as simple as everyone is trying to make it. There are multiple moving parts and without knowing exactly how all of the data is collected, trying to reconcile it futile.

I agree. And those numbers are SA positions anyway. My only contribution is that I don't think NYU is attempting to deceive anyone.

Agreed. I'm curious about what the reason is, but I don't actually care. It's not like NYU, CLS and HLS got together and decided to deceive people in the same way.

[JusticeHarlan]

The fact that there are many variables that we have identified that can have some impact should make you question the methodology behind Campos' claims, since he seems to be ignoring the possibility of any of these existing.

It's not so much about Campos' methodology as the schools' and the NLJ's. We know what Campos did. He looked at the schools' websites and got 555 (same as I got when I did the math, but you can double check me) and looked at NLJ and got 448. Campos has nothing to do with this other than posting on this.

We're still trying to get two metrics to equal one another when they measure different things. It's crazy to think you're going to reconcile them.

We obviously disagree here, though you're certainly right that it's difficult. I just think this is, for many applicants, the only data that really matters. We can look through 50 pages of herping and derping in the thread about the new US News rankings, or we can try to figure out how well schools actually place. Even if we're ultimately unsuccessful, trying to find real numbers is pretty important. Worth the effort, imo. Millage is obviously varying here. Nothing wrong with that.

[birdlaw117]

The fact that there are many variables that we have identified that can have some impact should make you question the methodology behind Campos' claims, since he seems to be ignoring the possibility of any of these existing.

It's not so much about Campos' methodology as the schools' and the NLJ's. We know what Campos did. He looked at the schools' websites and got 555 (same as I got when I did the math, but you can double check me) and looked at NLJ and got 448. Campos has nothing to do with this other than posting on this.

I actually got 565, but that's probably my own error.

We're still trying to get two metrics to equal one another when they measure different things. It's crazy to think you're going to reconcile them.

We obviously disagree here, though you're certainly right that it's difficult. I just think this is, for many applicants, the only data that really matters. We can look through 50 pages of herping and derping in the thread about the new US News rankings, or we can try to figure out how well schools actually place. Even if we're ultimately unsuccessful, trying to find real numbers is pretty important. Worth the effort, imo. Millage is obviously varying here. Nothing wrong with that.

If they measure snapshots in time when the time is not the same, there is NO way to reconcile them other than to measure the number of jobs students got between those points in time (something that would be stupid and impossible). I don't know if that's the case, but it's likely to be somewhat of the case (considering the time of the NLJ250 survey), and there are plenty of other variables that have been identified as well. So it's not so much of a disagreement as it is you guys are trying to reconcile shit that can't be perfectly reconciled.

[Yeshia90]

NYU responds. Turns out. Everyone was right. Sorta.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

[skers]

NYU responds. Turns out. Everyone was right. Sorta.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

Really respect NYU for coming out swinging on this one.

[Bronck]

NYU responds. Turns out. Everyone was right. Sorta.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

Really respect NYU for coming out swinging on this one.

+1

[timbs4339]

NYU responds. Turns out. Everyone was right. Sorta.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

Really respect NYU for coming out swinging on this one.

+1. I wish they would have given us more info on which firms didn't report though.

[PMan99]

NYU responds. Turns out. Everyone was right. Sorta.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

Really respect NYU for coming out swinging on this one.

+1. I wish they would have given us more info on which firms didn't report though.

I did some looking around earlier and didn't post it, but the firms that hired HCN grads but not YC in 2010 ranged from Quinn NY to DLA NY.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Also, this right here…

NLJ editor-in-chief David Brown told NYU Law that in this year's survey, the results of which he just published, 71 of these 250 firms provided no school-specific 2011 hiring data. And, if a firm didn’t participate and a law school declined to say how many graduates it sent to that firm, the NLJ simply recorded that as a zero.

… seems to go a long way towards vindicating the schools that have inexplicably had poor showings in the NLJ numbers (NYU, Michigan).

I like the NYU post. Proud of my school. Prospects out of law school are bleak enough as it is without Campos exaggerating the state of affairs and the NY Post et al slandering particular schools.

Edit: Also, funny that everyone has relied so heavily on the NLJ numbers because the USNWR rankings are so flawed. Turns out NLJ's methodology is also opaque and misleading. Won't somebody think of the children?!

[JusticeHarlan]

NYU responds. Turns out. Everyone was right. Sorta.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

Really respect NYU for coming out swinging on this one.

+1, they did some good work there.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Property is going to be fun tomorrow..

[skers]

Also, this right here…

NLJ editor-in-chief David Brown told NYU Law that in this year's survey, the results of which he just published, 71 of these 250 firms provided no school-specific 2011 hiring data. And, if a firm didn’t participate and a law school declined to say how many graduates it sent to that firm, the NLJ simply recorded that as a zero.

… seems to go a long way towards vindicating the schools that have inexplicably had poor showings in the NLJ numbers (NYU, Michigan).

I like the NYU post. Proud of my school. Prospects out of law school are bleak enough as it is without Campos exaggerating the state of affairs and the NY Post et al slandering particular schools.

Na, Michigan is still TTT.

[hung jury]

NYU responds. Turns out. Everyone was right. Sorta.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

Kudos. I buy the explanation, seems plausible--there was clearly something NY-centric going on here and the explanation fits that pretty well. I really wish schools would do more of this sort of thing.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Also, this right here…

NLJ editor-in-chief David Brown told NYU Law that in this year's survey, the results of which he just published, 71 of these 250 firms provided no school-specific 2011 hiring data. And, if a firm didn’t participate and a law school declined to say how many graduates it sent to that firm, the NLJ simply recorded that as a zero.

… seems to go a long way towards vindicating the schools that have inexplicably had poor showings in the NLJ numbers (NYU, Michigan).

I like the NYU post. Proud of my school. Prospects out of law school are bleak enough as it is without Campos exaggerating the state of affairs and the NY Post et al slandering particular schools.

Na, Michigan is still TTT.

Ha, fair enough.

I don't know whether or why the NLJ methodology is biased in favor of some schools over others, but it definitely creates some room for doubt. It seems likely that some schools do provide the information to NLJ when the firms haven't, while NYU (and presumably CLS and HLS) don't.

Note that this would mean that CLS's NLJ 250 placement would be even higher than its already strong showing if its employment discrepancies are due to the same reporting policy.

[kaiser]

Wow, huge kudos to NYU for being so direct on addressing this issue. This really clarifies those NLJ250 percentage figures and show that NYU is actually quite a bit stronger than the percentage indicates.

[skers]

This just makes it that much bigger of a cunt to compare employment outcomes. Either we rely on data that has been shown to be incomplete or we rely on school's data and take their word for it that they haven't fucked with the numbers.

[Mal Reynolds]

Did Paul Campos stop posting here? Not that I want an epic flame war to get started but I would love to hear his response. His Stanford talk changed my opinion of him quite a bit-in a good way. So I want to give him the benefit of the doubt on this blog post but I don't know.

[snehpets]

lol dude, we get it, you're going to Yale and are better than all of us.

also, as for paul campos, I lost a lot of respect for him when he repeatedly refused to address when going to law school WAS a good idea. I mean obviously law is kind of a shitty career, but it's misleading to complain about the state of law schools 24/7 and then refuse to acknowledge that there are "best possible" circumstance for attending law school rather than just fear-mongering. I get what he's trying to do, and I don't blame him for telling people not to go to TTTs or whatever, but he also just gets kind of ridiculous.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Did Paul Campos stop posting here? Not that I want an epic flame war to get started but I would love to hear his response. His Stanford talk changed my opinion of him quite a bit-in a good way. So I want to give him the benefit of the doubt on this blog post but I don't know.

I think Campos' heart is in the right place, but:

1. He's a law professor, not a statistician, and doesn't always seem to thoroughly understand the implications of the data.
2. He thinks he's doing God's work and is overly strident about his conclusions.
3. He has become blinded to the possibility that not everything relating to law school is a scam.

[AntipodeanPhil]

NYU responds. Turns out. Everyone was right. Sorta.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

Really respect NYU for coming out swinging on this one.

+1

This is great, and kudos to NYU. They might feel maligned by Campos, but we have learnt a lot about the NLJ 250 numbers because of him. It is good to know that they are misleading in this respect - that so many firms are missing - and comforting to know the actual numbers are larger than the NLJ reports.

[kaiser]

So if you added back in those students from firms who didn't provide the numbers in NY, you would likely have Columbia, NYU, Harvard, and Penn all within the top 5 of the NLJ go to schools list, since they all place so many students into the NY firms.

[cubbiesyear]

Whoops. Double post.

[cubbiesyear]

Wow. This explanation makes me feel a lot better about my chances..

Am I justified on this feeling, even though I'm going to uchi? Wonder if a significant number of Chicago firms don't respond..

[dixiecupdrinking]

So if you added back in those students from firms who didn't provide the numbers in NY, you would likely have Columbia, NYU, Harvard, and Penn all within the top 5 of the NLJ go to schools list, since they all place so many students into the NY firms.

Yup. NYU's numbers suggest that their NLJ percentage should be 10-15% higher than reported, and the others probably suffer from similar discrepancies.

I know I shouldn't really care about this nonsense but I'm happy for NYU.

[Bronck]

So if you added back in those students from firms who didn't provide the numbers in NY, you would likely have Columbia, NYU, Harvard, and Penn all within the top 5 of the NLJ go to schools list, since they all place so many students into the NY firms.

Yup. NYU's numbers suggest that their NLJ percentage should be 10-15% higher than reported, and the others probably suffer from similar discrepancies.

I know I shouldn't really care about this nonsense but I'm happy for NYU.

Yeah. I think (H)CN would see the largest increase because of their NY-centric nature.