The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s Forum
- Tiago Splitter
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Your move Campos.
Although I don't understand why NYU and CLS aren't more aggressive about pointing out discrepancies in the annual NLJ 250 hiring report. From the sounds of it it would only help them.
Although I don't understand why NYU and CLS aren't more aggressive about pointing out discrepancies in the annual NLJ 250 hiring report. From the sounds of it it would only help them.
Last edited by Tiago Splitter on Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
I'm glad Prof. Campos made his post. Now we know a little more that we wouldn't have had he not forced NYU's hand. I'm still wondering why CLS isn't coming out with the same denial though. I don't think there is any different reason, but it doesn't reflect well on the school or the administration.
- AntipodeanPhil
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Indeed.Tiago Splitter wrote:Your move Campos.
NYU wrote:Having trouble knowing what to believe? We have a proposal for Paul Campos: come audit our numbers. We’ll show you a list of all NLJ 250 firms to which we sent associates in 2010 and 2011. Pick a reasonably sized sample from that group, and compare them to firm-verifiable data. Then let us, and the world, know what you find.
Yeah, that seems bizarre to me. They must know that a lot of 0Ls care a great deal about those numbers.Tiago Splitter wrote:Although I don't understand why NYU and CLS aren't more aggressive about pointing out discrepancies in the annual NLJ 250 hiring report.
Last edited by AntipodeanPhil on Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- skers
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Chances of nabbing a job are also better than a lot of people give credit for, considering at some (maybe all?) jd/phd kids aren't able to participate in OCI so the number of jds awarded =/= to jders who could have nabbed big law.AntipodeanPhil wrote:This is great, and kudos to NYU. They might feel maligned by Campos, but we have learnt a lot about the NLJ 250 numbers because of him. It is good to know that they are misleading in this respect - that so many firms are missing - and comforting to know the actual numbers are larger than the NLJ reports.Bronck wrote:+1TemporarySaint wrote:Really respect NYU for coming out swinging on this one.Yeshia90 wrote:NYU responds. Turns out. Everyone was right. Sorta.
http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Perhaps they didn't have as much representation in the particular firms that chose not to report? Though this is unlikely seeing as NYU and CLS essentially overlap with regard to where they place students.timbs4339 wrote:I'm glad Prof. Campos made his post. Now we know a little more that we wouldn't have had he not forced NYU's hand. I'm still wondering why CLS isn't coming out with the same denial though. I don't think there is any different reason, but it doesn't reflect well on the school or the administration.
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
wonder why radlaw hasnt posted in this thread
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=175
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=175
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Yeah I doubt that. The big NYC firms tend to hire double-digits from both CLS/NYU and HLS.kaiser wrote:Perhaps they didn't have as much representation in the particular firms that chose not to report? Though this is unlikely seeing as NYU and CLS essentially overlap with regard to where they place students.timbs4339 wrote:I'm glad Prof. Campos made his post. Now we know a little more that we wouldn't have had he not forced NYU's hand. I'm still wondering why CLS isn't coming out with the same denial though. I don't think there is any different reason, but it doesn't reflect well on the school or the administration.
- izy223
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
"Campos is welcome to audit our numbers"
Good for you NYU- cant wait to be part of the family come september
Good for you NYU- cant wait to be part of the family come september
- birdlaw117
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Clearly it's because NYU is lying and not because CLS just doesn't want to give Campos publicity.timbs4339 wrote:I'm glad Prof. Campos made his post. Now we know a little more that we wouldn't have had he not forced NYU's hand. I'm still wondering why CLS isn't coming out with the same denial though. I don't think there is any different reason, but it doesn't reflect well on the school or the administration.
Schools, professors and administrators are all hesitant to talk to people like Campos and those who are writing in the editorials on the Post/NY Times, etc. because it is always twisted as a negative. I've had this conversation with professors here at NYU and they have all received phone calls and won't talk to anyone because it's going to come out wrong because they want a particular story, not necessarily the truth.
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Explaining a discrepancy/answering questions =/= talking to the Post or posting on Campos' blog. CLS could have addressed this with a press release or news like NYU did. They moved lightning fast a few years ago when a paper telling the story of an unemployed Florida law student made it sound like he graduated from CLS. Within a few hours they had pointed out he graduated from Columbia undergrad general studies.birdlaw117 wrote:Clearly it's because NYU is lying and not because CLS just doesn't want to give Campos publicity.timbs4339 wrote:I'm glad Prof. Campos made his post. Now we know a little more that we wouldn't have had he not forced NYU's hand. I'm still wondering why CLS isn't coming out with the same denial though. I don't think there is any different reason, but it doesn't reflect well on the school or the administration.
Schools, professors and administrators are all hesitant to talk to people like Campos and those who are writing in the editorials on the Post/NY Times, etc. because it is always twisted as a negative. I've had this conversation with professors here at NYU and they have all received phone calls and won't talk to anyone because it's going to come out wrong because they want a particular story, not necessarily the truth.
Nothing NYU said is really shocking news and they acted correctly even if their post was really snarky. They pointed out discrepancies in the NLJ250 data that we all knew could have been there and explained why it might have disproportionally affected them vs other schools. They were able to explain the discrepancy and play up their solid biglaw placement. I wonder why my school isn't doing the same even though NYUs explanation applies to them too.
- AntipodeanPhil
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Presumably Paul Campos is in a difficult position. If he draws the line somewhere (t14 at full tuition; tier 1 with $$$, for example), he will presumably make a lot of enemies - especially if his school is not included. I know I wouldn't go to Colorado without scholarship money.snehpets wrote:lol dude, we get it, you're going to Yale and are better than all of us.
also, as for paul campos, I lost a lot of respect for him when he repeatedly refused to address when going to law school WAS a good idea. I mean obviously law is kind of a shitty career, but it's misleading to complain about the state of law schools 24/7 and then refuse to acknowledge that there are "best possible" circumstance for attending law school rather than just fear-mongering. I get what he's trying to do, and I don't blame him for telling people not to go to TTTs or whatever, but he also just gets kind of ridiculous.
Also, who is the first part of your comment referring to? I'm confused.
- birdlaw117
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Presumably Campos put himself in whatever position he now finds himself in, so I don't feel bad for him one bit.AntipodeanPhil wrote:Presumably Paul Campos is in a difficult position. If he draws the line somewhere (t14 at full tuition; tier 1 with $$$, for example), he will presumably make a lot of enemies - especially if his school is not included. I know I wouldn't go to Colorado without scholarship money.snehpets wrote:lol dude, we get it, you're going to Yale and are better than all of us.
also, as for paul campos, I lost a lot of respect for him when he repeatedly refused to address when going to law school WAS a good idea. I mean obviously law is kind of a shitty career, but it's misleading to complain about the state of law schools 24/7 and then refuse to acknowledge that there are "best possible" circumstance for attending law school rather than just fear-mongering. I get what he's trying to do, and I don't blame him for telling people not to go to TTTs or whatever, but he also just gets kind of ridiculous.
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Yes. Also he's pretty much already made all the enemies he could make.birdlaw117 wrote:Presumably Campos put himself in whatever position he now finds himself in, so I don't feel bad for him one bit.AntipodeanPhil wrote:Presumably Paul Campos is in a difficult position. If he draws the line somewhere (t14 at full tuition; tier 1 with $$$, for example), he will presumably make a lot of enemies - especially if his school is not included. I know I wouldn't go to Colorado without scholarship money.snehpets wrote:lol dude, we get it, you're going to Yale and are better than all of us.
also, as for paul campos, I lost a lot of respect for him when he repeatedly refused to address when going to law school WAS a good idea. I mean obviously law is kind of a shitty career, but it's misleading to complain about the state of law schools 24/7 and then refuse to acknowledge that there are "best possible" circumstance for attending law school rather than just fear-mongering. I get what he's trying to do, and I don't blame him for telling people not to go to TTTs or whatever, but he also just gets kind of ridiculous.
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- AntipodeanPhil
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
LOL. I hadn't thought about it that way.dixiecupdrinking wrote:Yes. Also he's pretty much already made all the enemies he could make.
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
In light of NYU's response, any explanation for why these numbers are the same?
I'd say NYU went back and corrected it. But why retrofit the 2008 data and not the 2010?
- birdlaw117
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Pure coincidence since they measure different things.run26.2 wrote:In light of NYU's response, any explanation for why these numbers are the same?
I'd say NYU went back and corrected it. But why retrofit the 2008 data and not the 2010?
- sunynp
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
You guys are assuming that Campos accused the schools of cooking the books. He makes it clear he didn't.
From an update posted the same day as the original post on Campos' blog:
Even if he did outright accuse them, what difference does it make? Schools need as much pressure as possible to release information about jobs. It shouldn't take public shaming in a blog and reporters from the Post to get them to tell the truth about jobs. This shouldn't be a war between the fight for accurate data and resistance from the schools. Transparent emloyment data benefits students making decisions on where to attend, and should be available.
Also, leading schools like NYU and Columbia matter because they tend to set the standard for how lower ranked schools will behave. IF they start releasing completely clear information, including how many fellowships they sponsor to boost their figures, then all the schools would have to report.
It really shouldn't be this difficult to get job data from a school you are paying around $40 -50, 000 a year for the privilege.
From an update posted the same day as the original post on Campos' blog:
(emphasis added)BTW some commenters responding to the original thread on this topic assumed I was accusing Columbia and NYU of intentionally cooking their numbers. I didn't and I'm not. What I'd like to know is why one out of every five BigLaw jobs that Columbia and NYU reported to NALP in 2010 has gone missing in the NLJ stats. There are lots of possible explanations for this that don't include outright fraud by the schools themselves (For instance one possibility is that unusually large percentages of Columbia and NYU grads are taking new non-partner track associate positions, which the NLJ doesn't count when surveying firms).
Simply refusing to answer the question, however, isn't a very good way of getting people to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Even if he did outright accuse them, what difference does it make? Schools need as much pressure as possible to release information about jobs. It shouldn't take public shaming in a blog and reporters from the Post to get them to tell the truth about jobs. This shouldn't be a war between the fight for accurate data and resistance from the schools. Transparent emloyment data benefits students making decisions on where to attend, and should be available.
Also, leading schools like NYU and Columbia matter because they tend to set the standard for how lower ranked schools will behave. IF they start releasing completely clear information, including how many fellowships they sponsor to boost their figures, then all the schools would have to report.
It really shouldn't be this difficult to get job data from a school you are paying around $40 -50, 000 a year for the privilege.
Last edited by sunynp on Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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- birdlaw117
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
It didn't take that. Turns out NYU reported accurate data and NLJ did not. That is, assuming NYU's explanation is correct.sunynp wrote:You guys are assuming that Campos accused the schools of cooking the books. He makes it clear he didn't. Even if he did, what difference does it make? Schools need as much pressure as possible to release information about jobs. It shouldn't take public shaming in a blog and reporters from the Post to get them to tell the truth about jobs.
Also, leading schools like NYU and Columbia matter because they tend to set the standard for how lower ranked schools will behave. IF they start releasing completely clear information, including how many fellowships they sponsor to boost their figures, then all the schools would have to report.
It really shouldn't be this difficult to get job data from a school you are paying around $40 -50, 000 a year for the privilege.
Campos saw a difference in data (data that shouldn't be the same, mind you) and approached only one of the parties and then seemed to imply that something fishy was going on when he didn't get an immediate response.
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
It is possible that it is coincidence, but the same principal effect that they discuss (namely the hiring of numerous associates by firms that don't report to the NLJ) should lead to a similar result for the earlier year. Unless I'm missing something.birdlaw117 wrote:Pure coincidence since they measure different things.run26.2 wrote:In light of NYU's response, any explanation for why these numbers are the same?
I'd say NYU went back and corrected it. But why retrofit the 2008 data and not the 2010?
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
My hunch is that over the last few years, firms may have stopped providing the data to NLJ. So for the 2008 list, perhaps all the firms provided the schools of their incoming associates, which means that the NLJ numbers would match the schools'. Not that hard to imagine that after the layoffs and no-offers of 2008-09, many firms decided it was in their interest to be less transparent about their hiring.run26.2 wrote:It is possible that it is coincidence, but the same principal effect that they discuss (namely the hiring of numerous associates by firms that don't report to the NLJ) should lead to a similar result for the earlier year. Unless I'm missing something.birdlaw117 wrote:Pure coincidence since they measure different things.run26.2 wrote:In light of NYU's response, any explanation for why these numbers are the same?
I'd say NYU went back and corrected it. But why retrofit the 2008 data and not the 2010?
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
The sub-250 NLJ250 firms end up pushing NYU over the limitrun26.2 wrote:It is possible that it is coincidence, but the same principal effect that they discuss (namely the hiring of numerous associates by firms that don't report to the NLJ) should lead to a similar result for the earlier year. Unless I'm missing something.birdlaw117 wrote:Pure coincidence since they measure different things.run26.2 wrote:In light of NYU's response, any explanation for why these numbers are the same?
I'd say NYU went back and corrected it. But why retrofit the 2008 data and not the 2010?
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Possibly, but given the relatively small percentage that go into the smaller firms, I doubt this would be sufficient to account for the numbers.PMan99 wrote: The sub-250 NLJ250 firms end up pushing NYU over the limit
- camelcrema
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
I don't think this has been posted (sorry if it has), but the NY Post accused CLS and NYU of inflating job stats in a recent article. Is this the same phenomenon to which Campos is referring? If so, CLS responded to the allegations here
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
It's the same one. That post doesn't go into why CLS has a discrepancy and other schools don't. It makes sense because they aren't addressing Campos, but at the same time I wished they'd have used the opportunity to go one step further.camelcrema wrote:I don't think this has been posted (sorry if it has), but the NY Post accused CLS and NYU of inflating job stats in a recent article. Is this the same phenomenon to which Campos is referring? If so, CLS responded to the allegations here
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Re: The Accuracy of the T6's Self-Reported Big Law Employment #s
Another takeaway from this is the NLJ is an untrustworthy source of information. They openly claim this is the authoritative list on the best schools for biglaw prospects (they call it the "Go-To" List) and neglect to mention that 30% of all NLJ 250 firms didn't provide any information at all.
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