Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where should I go?

Poll ended at Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:20 pm

Seton Hall 25k/year w/ 3.2 GPA stip. (or above median stipulation)
4
12%
Rutgers-Newark w/ 10k/year 3.0 (in-state tuition)
11
33%
St. John's 30k/year top 40% Stip
11
33%
Villanova- 20k/year w/ 2.0 Stip
1
3%
American - Sticker
4
12%
Cardozo - Sticker
2
6%
 
Total votes: 33

sadsituationJD
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby sadsituationJD » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:44 am

The insight you have provided has been valuable, sad situation. If OP still wants to jump off the cliff, I don't think there's anything more that can be done to convince him otherwise. You know law kids, they all think they know more than you.


Yeah it's really kind of funny and sad at the same time. I see kids like him on the PATH train all the time, with a set of different color highlighters marking up those casebooks and all. Pathetic.

BTW, do you really think in this market the job that lists "entry level to 5 years experience" is going to go w/ a newbie when they'll get scores of resumes from EXPERIENCED lawyers who are out of work? And the other "entry level" job he found is a temp position as a doc reviewer. Yet this guy has, in his own mind, already "sold" himself on this as a career despite his mediocre credentials, so he's probably a lost cause.

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JCFindley
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby JCFindley » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:59 am

romothesavior wrote:
Azmatt wrote:Something concerning about him citing craigslist as a reliable source for reliable NJ law perspective....

Your wilful ignorance is kind of pathetic. You don't want to hear anything you don't already believe. You just want validation of your decision, and deride even practicing attorneys who tell you the cold hard truth. Enjoy Rutgers and subsequent debt peonage.

Sadsituation, please stick around TLS and continue sharing your perspective. This is great stuff, and some will listen.


Actually I am listening and listening hard.

The craiglist ad is actually quite real and not just indicative of the law in profession that is in the toilet but read around and you will find almost all the "elite" careers of days gone by are hurting. (perhaps the medical field is an exception.) Technology has turned many jobs to crap. Think it is rosy for architects? Not so much. Airline pilots? I might as well be sadsituation for that career field. Pharmacists? They will have jobs but how well does wallyworld pay as the walamartization of America continues? Software programmers? I hope you made your money in it's glory days and own an NBA team by now because that is on it's way down. Hell, even the military is laying people off.

I don't discount what he is saying at all and may well find my self with a useless JD that will be a nice conversation piece as I wait tables at Outback. I am seriously considering not going at all.

On the other hand it is something I have always wanted to do. I am walking into this with my eyes wide open (and won't take any additional debt doing it.) I think the OP has his eyes open and knows the risks. There are risks in every profession and very few become that special snow flake or rock star. I would go so far as to say most people hate their jobs and sludge through just to get by. (Yes, the difference being the amount of debt and time it took to get the job.)

Not sure I even have a point to all my ramblings, but yeah, I do appreciate what sad is saying whether I decide to go ahead or just move to Montana and be a lumber jack.

JC

Azmatt
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby Azmatt » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:18 am

JCFindley wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Azmatt wrote:Something concerning about him citing craigslist as a reliable source for reliable NJ law perspective....

Your wilful ignorance is kind of pathetic. You don't want to hear anything you don't already believe. You just want validation of your decision, and deride even practicing attorneys who tell you the cold hard truth. Enjoy Rutgers and subsequent debt peonage.

Sadsituation, please stick around TLS and continue sharing your perspective. This is great stuff, and some will listen.


Actually I am listening and listening hard.

The craiglist ad is actually quite real and not just indicative of the law in profession that is in the toilet but read around and you will find almost all the "elite" careers of days gone by are hurting. (perhaps the medical field is an exception.) Technology has turned many jobs to crap. Think it is rosy for architects? Not so much. Airline pilots? I might as well be sadsituation for that career field. Pharmacists? They will have jobs but how well does wallyworld pay as the walamartization of America continues? Software programmers? I hope you made your money in it's glory days and own an NBA team by now because that is on it's way down. Hell, even the military is laying people off.

I don't discount what he is saying at all and may well find my self with a useless JD that will be a nice conversation piece as I wait tables at Outback. I am seriously considering not going at all.

On the other hand it is something I have always wanted to do. I am walking into this with my eyes wide open (and won't take any additional debt doing it.) I think the OP has his eyes open and knows the risks. There are risks in every profession and very few become that special snow flake or rock star. I would go so far as to say most people hate their jobs and sludge through just to get by. (Yes, the difference being the amount of debt and time it took to get the job.)

Not sure I even have a point to all my ramblings, but yeah, I do appreciate what sad is saying whether I decide to go ahead or just move to Montana and be a lumber jack.

JC


Thanks JC.

Oddly enough, he didn't actually deter me. I can fill this thread with anecdotal evidence of guys who, through perserverence, overcame their "less than t50" stigma while moving out of region and landing decent 55-75k jobs. But, that's not credited. Ancecdotal evidence just doesn't mean too much on an internet forum. Sorry. With his ,presumably, valuable perspective he didn't actually reveal much to us. Saying something is a bad choice and attacking my credentials isn't the same as actually disputing readily available data that would indicate a seemingly more quantifiable reality.

He asked for a few postings. I found a few postings. However, the walls of text he provided indicate a complete lack of insight. I never said that I would only settle for 100k+. I never said it was likely or that I still wouldn't seek that profession if 50-60k was what I could expect. I already elucidated my financial situation and it's not a terrible risk to take to do what I want. What I want to do for a living and the means to get there are within my reach. Whether or not i'll find the ideal jobs that go along with this, is debatable. This, I also illustrated and is clearly understood. I've worked and supported myself through the financial crisis. I've been laid off. I've perservered. I've overcome debt and went back to undergrad and done well. I've sought advice perspective from attorneys in a state with a much more dire law market than NJ. Even they have pushed me to seek law. Their perspective is infinitly more valuable.

For someone in a professional career that deals with details, you did a terrible job paying attention to them. Your diction is where my pushback comes from. If I felt you truly gave a crap about conveying your opinion, again, I would listen. However, your rancor indicates otherwise. In fact, if you must know, my LSAT wasn't terrible. Underperforming because I needed to make up from mistakes in my early undergrad and underperforming well below median are two different things.

But, again, I do appreciate the input. :)
Last edited by Azmatt on Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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stillwater
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby stillwater » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:25 am

I really don't understand what you are getting so sensitive about. Sadsituation was adding some clarity to the rose-colored glasses. The decision is obviously yours and you must weigh the realities of said decision. Just because he didn't wrap his perspective in swaddling cloth doesn't make it any less true.

Azmatt
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby Azmatt » Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:57 am

stillwater wrote:I really don't understand what you are getting so sensitive about. Sadsituation was adding some clarity to the rose-colored glasses. The decision is obviously yours and you must weigh the realities of said decision. Just because he didn't wrap his perspective in swaddling cloth doesn't make it any less true.


Hyperbole isn't truth. He didn't really indicate anything that would justify ignoring the quantifable NALP numbers . Reading my post, I have a safe opportunity to undertake my 1L and, if I do well enough I can foresee some opportunity in the future. That's quantifiable. Now, these percentages are small, but they're there. Some internet guy isnt' going to convince me that it's not the case without actually explaining why.

I understand the legal market is tough. I know how the opportunties are weak for law students out of the top of their class. It's almost as if I've already accounted for that. There's just not a single response that has convinced me that, in my situation, it's not prudent to take that chance for my first year. :)

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PitchO20
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby PitchO20 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:05 am

Caveat emptor and all that. Can't say this guy hasn't been informed, at least to some degree.

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20130312
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby 20130312 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:06 am

JC, your decision is commendable because you will not be taking on debt and clearly have spent years and years thinking about what is right for you.

Az, yours is silly because I can only assume you are a self-assured k-JD who just always knew law school was "right" for him.

Azmatt
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby Azmatt » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:20 am

InGoodFaith wrote:JC, your decision is commendable because you will not be taking on debt and clearly have spent years and years thinking about what is right for you.

Az, yours is silly because I can only assume you are a self-assured k-JD who just always knew law school was "right" for him.


Actually, my 1L will nearly be without debt and I've had over 5 years of FT-work experience. I have a healthy savings and my gf will be living with me. She makes a substantial living and already has offers in the area. Already indicated that on page 1.

Helps to read the post.
Last edited by Azmatt on Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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20130312
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby 20130312 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:22 am

You're right, my assumptions were unwarranted. See below for my correction.

InGoodFaith wrote:JC, your decision is commendable because you will not be taking on debt and clearly have spent years and years thinking about what is right for you.

Az, yours is silly because I can only assume you are a self-assured k-JD snowflake who just always knew law school was "right" for him.

Azmatt
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby Azmatt » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:25 am

InGoodFaith wrote:You're right, my assumptions were unwarranted. See below for my correction.

InGoodFaith wrote:JC, your decision is commendable because you will not be taking on debt and clearly have spent years and years thinking about what is right for you.

Az, yours is silly because I can only assume you are a self-assured k-JD snowflake who just always knew law school was "right" for him.


You seem upset.

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stillwater
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby stillwater » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:31 am

Vice versa. You seem butthurt that Sadsituation blew up your spot.

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chup
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby chup » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:33 am

Is there a futures market for JD-debt-slaves yet? I want to get in on some of that sweet action.

Azmatt
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby Azmatt » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:36 am

chup wrote:Is there a futures market for JD-debt-slaves yet? I want to get in on some of that sweet action.


Bet against the $.

Azmatt
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby Azmatt » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:39 am

stillwater wrote:Vice versa. You seem butthurt that Sadsituation blew up your spot.


Totally what happened. :)

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JCFindley
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby JCFindley » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:57 am

I won't take on any additional debt because I am far to old to risk that without all that much "career" time to pay it off. Even if I was a "shoe in" for big law I would not take on debt plus there is really no such thing as a shoe in anyway there are only odds and probabilities.

I get the feeling that the OP knows the risks and is not walking in with his eyes closed following the rest of the lemmings toward the edge. It is all how much risk an individual is willing to take and actually understanding the real odds behind it. I get the feeling he does know but is still willing to chase the dream.

JC

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romothesavior
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:59 pm

Look guys, OP will not be deterred by the lack of hiring at the big NJ firms or the unpaid "legal internships" the state is offering that are being swarmed by people who have passed the bar. Nor will he be deterred by a practicing attorney who knows the market far better than he does.

What OP requires is IRREFUTABLE SCIENTIFIC PROOF that the market is bad. Until every lawyer and graduate in the state is accounted for, OP will remain undeterred.

timbs4339
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:05 pm

OP knows the score, and he knows his most likely outcome is a 40-55K job in NJ or maybe NYC. There's not much more TLS can do.

Good luck OP.

sadsituationJD
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby sadsituationJD » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:33 pm

Look OP (and everyone else for that matter)- if you MUST go to law school, go wherever is 100% free, and work part-time to pay living expenses if you can (i.e wait tables, bartend, etc). The "opportunities" afforded to grads of St. John's, Seton Hall, R-N, Brooklyn etc are not any better than those for a CUNY or Pace grad, despite your thoughts to the contrary. So if these lower-ranked places give you full ride, take it and don't look back.

The old PI firm I worked at in NYC had grads from Pace, CUNY, NYLS, and Brooklyn, as well as an NYU grad (that one's a long story). Having 0 debt opens up a world of possibilities: you could spend the 75 K you would've given a toilet like St John's or Seton Hall on say a google adwords campaign or something that will make YOU $$$ when you get out, rather than debt service. And should you fail, that debt can be discharged in bankruptcy. Shitlaw clients could care less where you went to law school, believe me when I tell you that is the last thing on their mind. All my friends who went to law school for free now have pretty decent practices of their own, because the $$$ I spend on debt they spent on building their own biz.

Small firms also don't give a hoot where you went to law school- the only thing they require is bar admission so that you can cover court appearances and sign off on your own motion affirmations. Another piece of advice to to become a NY notary right now, as it will make you more attractive as a part-time intern or law clerk since you can notarize HIPPA authos and other docs that clients might bring in. You can wait until bar admission and then they waive the notary exam, but the test is so easy you might as well just take it now and get that credential so you'll have it on your resume for intern jobs in shitlaw. It's little things like that which might get you a gig in like a small personal injury shop or other shitlaw office your first year summer.

Another thing you should take advantage of are the CLE classes- most of them will let law students attend the lectures for free (although if you want the form books and such you'll have to pay for them). The CLE classes are basically what law school SHOULD be- local small firm lawyers who are practicing experts in certain areas and know current updates and caselaw for their respective disciplines. They also put together EXCELLENT form books/practice guides with everything you'll need to cut n' paste a case in X practice area together from soup to nuts: demand letters, motions, complaints, orders to show cause, all with little notes and hints throughout. These are expensive though- most are about $400 but do include all the forms and such on CD-ROMS which are editable Adobe PDF or Word docs with merge fields and shit. I actually will be teaching a NJ residential construction law CLE in the fall, I got a call from a friend at Thomson West who invited me to do it (you get CLE credit for teaching as well as attending CLE, although you don't get paid anything). You also will meet a lot of practicing lawyers there and might score an internship gig if you ask around at the CLE class.

Law school ITE is simply too risky to warrant paying anything for, esp. for TTT schools like the OP is considering. If those places gave him $$$, a place like CUNY might give him a total ride if he can tell them his dream is to "help people" and all that jazz, which they apparently love.

The good thing about going to a place like that is you can just forget grades/Biglaw nonsense pipedreams altogether and get C's while working/leanring as much as possible in shitlaw, and in 3 years getting a basically "free" law license. IMO those people are the only non-Top 14 kids who will have any shot at success in this industry with the way things are going.

HTH

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romothesavior
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby romothesavior » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:37 pm

sadsituationJD wrote: IMO those people are the only non-Top 14 kids who will have any shot at success in this industry with the way things are going.


sadsituationJD wrote:Look OP (and everyone else for that matter)- if you MUST go to law school, go wherever is 100% free, and work part-time to pay living expenses if you can (i.e wait tables, bartend, etc).


sadsituationJD wrote: Small firms also don't give a hoot where you went to law school- the only thing they require is bar admission so that you can cover court appearances and sign off on your own motion affirmations.


Okay you started off solid, now you're just being hyperbolic.

get it to x
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby get it to x » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:39 pm

I'm a recent gainfully employed RU grad practicing civil litigation and what sadsituation jd has posted is true for the most part although I do not believe RU is/was a TTT. The educational quality was excellent and its alternative admissions process along with NJ funding issues are the primary reasons why USNews never goes well for us. The US Attorney's Office information is inaccurate. They have begun hiring again under a temporary reprieve from the federal government because they are swamped with work. Even though it's temporary, it's still a slightly better picture than where it was 10 months ago. Trying to break into the NYC market from NJ schools is tough sledding. St. John's and Brooklyn have much more cohesive networks in NYC and the boroughs than Seton Hall and Rutgers and it is easier for their students to find internships and jobs there than it is for Jersey schools. I'm not saying it does not happen, it just requires more creative thinking and a lot of networking. Jumping across the Hudson, however, is not as easy as it may appear to you without any working knowledge of both legal markets.

The information on TLS that is absolutely positively correct is that these schools (and quite honestly plug Fordham in here too because their bottom 1/3 -1/2 of their class has the same issues) are not an automatic ticket to BigLaw or a big salary. 5-10 students receive INTERVIEWS with big firms that may (but in some cases may not) actually terminate in a 2L summer associate position. Most of the data posted on the RU Career Services website includes the school's MSP (Minority Student Program). The MSP program has cultivated deals with local mid-sized and larger law firms to take 1L students on as summer clerks and some maintain those positions 2L summer which ultimately contributes to the school's employment statistics. These opportunities are not viable for the vast majority of non-minority students at the school so the picture just is not as rosy as the website indicates. Rutgers has seen (at least when I was there) a significant down-turn in the number of employers utilizing OCI to fill associate positions. Even employers who do show up oftentimes are doing so as a courtesy to the administration or faculty members who worked there before entering academia, but have no interest whatsoever in actually hiring students. Just understand the nature of the employment beast before you sit down in Contracts class. You will likely be doing unpaid internships for two summers and relying on networking (which does work if you push yourself hard enough) to find some place respectable to take you on. This is not Penn, NYU, or Columbia where the job comes to you. RU is exactly like the vast majority of American law schools, you, the student, are going to have to take responsibility for spearheading your own job search and making contacts to help you get your foot in the door.

Do not, do not, do not, bank on walking into Rutgers and walking out as a top student simply because you have convinced yourself that you will just work hard and get top grades. Law school does not work that way. Most professors are nut jobs and are barely comprehensible. You are going to end up teaching yourself the material and it all comes down to a 3 hour exam and an arbitrary grading scale that is beyond your control to determine your future employability out of the gate. This is no reflection on how good of a lawyer you are or even how well you understand the material. Some of the smartest law school students are poor exam takers. In other words, they might not be able to provide the buzzwords in some unknown format to get a stellar grade on an exam, but they will kick your ass writing a brief.

Rutgers is a good school that is highly underrated. The quality of the education is solid and it's cheap so you won't be saddled with crippling debt as your contemporaries at BLS or St. John's. It is not, however, an automatic ticket to a white shoe NJ or New York firm. The economy has severely limited those exit options for graduates. You can still succeed and find jobs just be ready to work really hard, be flexible, and adapt your goals to the situation at hand. If you're dead set on becoming a lawyer, do it cheap and think outside the box and be able to cope with the results because it most likely will not be what you initially wished for.
Last edited by get it to x on Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sadsituationJD
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby sadsituationJD » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:47 pm

Most of the data posted on the RU Career Services website includes the school's MSP (Minority Student Program). The MSP program has cultivated deals with local mid-sized and larger law firms to take 1L students on as summer clerks and some maintain those positions 2L summer which ultimately contributes to the school's employment statistics. These opportunities are not viable for the vast majority of non-minority students at the school so the picture just is not as rosy as the website indicates.


That is an excellent point re: R-N. Go and browse the NYC biglaw firms that have R-N grads as associates and you'll see that most of them are both female and minorities, esp. at the uber-prestigious firms like SullCrom and Cravath etc. It is def/ something to factor into your decision.

Azmatt
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby Azmatt » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:54 pm

get it to x wrote:I'm a recent gainfully employed RU grad practicing civil litigation and what sadsituation jd has posted is true for the most part although I do not believe RU is/was a TTT. The educational quality was excellent and its alternative admissions process along with NJ funding issues are the primary reasons why USNews never goes well for us. The US Attorney's Office information is inaccurate. They have begun hiring again under a temporary reprieve from the federal government because they are swamped with work. Even though it's temporary, it's still a slightly better picture than where it was 10 months ago. Trying to break into the NYC market from NJ schools is tough sledding. St. John's and Brooklyn have much more cohesive networks in NYC and the boroughs than Seton Hall and Rutgers and it is easier for their students to find internships and jobs there than it is for Jersey schools. I'm not saying it does not happen, it just requires more creative thinking and a lot of networking. Jumping across the Hudson, however, is not as easy as it may appear to you without any working knowledge of both legal markets.

The information on TLS that is absolutely positively correct is that these schools (and quite honestly plug Fordham in here too because their bottom 1/3 -1/2 of their class has the same issues) are not an automatic ticket to BigLaw or a big salary. 5-10 students receive INTERVIEWS with big firms that may (but in some cases may not) actually terminate in a 2L summer associate position. Most of the data posted on the RU Career Services website includes the school's MSP (Minority Student Program). The MSP program has cultivated deals with local mid-sized and larger law firms to take 1L students on as summer clerks and some maintain those positions 2L summer which ultimately contributes to the school's employment statistics. These opportunities are not viable for the vast majority of non-minority students at the school so the picture just is not as rosy as the website indicates. Rutgers has seen (at least when I was there) a significant down-turn in the number of employers utilizing OCI to fill associate positions. Even employers who do show up oftentimes are doing so as a courtesy to the administration or faculty members who worked there before entering academia, but have no interest whatsoever in actually hiring students. Just understand the nature of the employment beast before you sit down in Contracts class. You will likely be doing unpaid internships for two summers and relying on networking (which does work if you push yourself hard enough) to find some place respectable to take you on.

Do not, do not, do not, bank on walking into Rutgers and walking out as a top student simply because you have convinced yourself that you will just work hard and get top grades. Law school does not work that way. Most professors are nut jobs and are barely comprehensible. You are going to end up teaching yourself the material and it all comes down to a 3 hour exam and an arbitrary grading scale that is beyond your control to determine your future employability out of the gate. This is no reflection on how good of a lawyer you are or even how well you understand the material. Some of the smartest law school students are poor exam takers. In other words, they might not be able to provide the buzzwords in some unknown format to get a stellar grade on an exam, but they will kick your ass writing a brief.

Rutgers is a good school that is highly underrated. The quality of the education is solid and it's cheap so you won't be saddled with crippling debt as your contemporaries at BLS or St. John's. It is not, however, an automatic ticket to a white shoe NJ or New York firm. The economy has severely limited those exit options for graduates. You can still succeed and find jobs just be ready to work really hard, be flexible, and adapt your goals to the situation at hand. If you're dead set on becoming a lawyer, do it cheap and think outside the box and be able to cope with the results because it most likely will not be what you initially wished for.


This is how to give advice. Much appreciated.

Azmatt
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby Azmatt » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:01 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:
Most of the data posted on the RU Career Services website includes the school's MSP (Minority Student Program). The MSP program has cultivated deals with local mid-sized and larger law firms to take 1L students on as summer clerks and some maintain those positions 2L summer which ultimately contributes to the school's employment statistics. These opportunities are not viable for the vast majority of non-minority students at the school so the picture just is not as rosy as the website indicates.


That is an excellent point re: R-N. Go and browse the NYC biglaw firms that have R-N grads as associates and you'll see that most of them are both female and minorities, esp. at the uber-prestigious firms like SullCrom and Cravath etc. It is def/ something to factor into your decision.



I have. It's a mixed bag. The associates from 2004+ seem to be all over the place. It wasn't exactly a thorough analysis of every firm, but racewasn't decidedly minority or otherwise.

get it to x
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby get it to x » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:14 pm

sadsituationJD wrote:
Most of the data posted on the RU Career Services website includes the school's MSP (Minority Student Program). The MSP program has cultivated deals with local mid-sized and larger law firms to take 1L students on as summer clerks and some maintain those positions 2L summer which ultimately contributes to the school's employment statistics. These opportunities are not viable for the vast majority of non-minority students at the school so the picture just is not as rosy as the website indicates.


That is an excellent point re: R-N. Go and browse the NYC biglaw firms that have R-N grads as associates and you'll see that most of them are both female and minorities, esp. at the uber-prestigious firms like SullCrom and Cravath etc. It is def/ something to factor into your decision.


Unless things have changed from the not so distant past or my memory is bad, S&C and Cravath and some of their more overrated get-over yourself counterparts did not hire the smart minority candidates in bulk. It was more a breeding ground for the students who had it all (3.8+GPA, law review and/or moot court, moot court competition wins, etc.). Again, although I'm repeating myself, hardly anyone is going to be able to pull off all three. Winning a moot court competition, for example, is incredibly difficult in addition to being significantly time consuming. My overall point was in the packaging. RU makes a concerted effort to push its minority candidates who opt in to MSP. Everyone else is on their own because Career Services is beyond bad. RU needs to do a better job in packaging its entire class to NJ firms - its home market. There is absolutely no reason why mid-sized/small firms in a rebounding (if you want to call it that) economy who have hiring needs should not be kicking the tires on RU grads. These aren't the firms that are poaching laterals from NYC. Most of their offices are local grads and to not even dabble in local graduating classes is nothing short of upsetting. If you properly train a first year associate in this economy, you can get a tremendous amount of meaningful work out them and they're eager to please. I'll take that any day over the disgruntled 5th year associate who has no social skills and is on their way to professional burnout. But that's just me.
Last edited by get it to x on Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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iceicebaby
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Re: Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova

Postby iceicebaby » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:31 pm

OP—I started a similar thread and all I can say is don't let these people deter you from going to law school if that's what you really want to do with your life. The best thing you can do is make a well-informed decision knowing full well that these schools will not get you into BigLaw unless you're at the top or near the top of the class, and even then in no way is it guaranteed. No matter what, make sure you work HAM at any place you decide to go. Only you know your financial situation well enough to know what you can manage in terms of your debt load and the kinds of risks you can take in accepting a seat at one school over the other.

Personally, if you want to try your hand at NYC I would take the large scholly at St. John's, negotiate that stipulation down as much as possible, work your ass off and be prepared to drop out if you lose the scholly and/or aren't in the top 40% of your class. You're taking a risk, but St. John's has a huge alumni base in many mid-level and even large firms in NYC that are very loyal to those who do well at St. John's. For example, if you take a look at Curtis, Mallet-Prevost, Colt & Mosle LLP, a mid-size NLJ250 firm in Manhattan that starts its associates at $160k/year, you will find a solid amount of St. John's grads working in the bankruptcy practice group. It's all about networking and working very hard to find niches like the one I described, but they do exist. Even if you aren't able to get into BigLaw, your debt load will be manageable as long as you are able to keep your scholarship throughout the 3 years.

If you don't mind being outside of NYC, Rutgers is also a good option. Their grads tend to do very well and you'd be taking a much lower risk attending there than at St. John's. However, know that the NYC jobs will be harder to come by as a Rutgers grad than as a St. John's grad, but they do still exist (there are even a couple of Rutgers grads at Curtis, too). It's a trade-off and only you can decide if it is worth it or not.

I personally don't think anyone should be attending a school that isn't T14 at sticker price, so for me that would eliminate American and Cardozo. They are certainly good schools, but not worth going into over $200k of debt for imho.




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