Ruby at UChicago v. Harvard v. Columbia Forum

[chup]

I am not exactly sure what I want to do after school.

Then don't go to law school, dummy.

This is dumb. Just because you don't know what kind of lawyer you wanna be doesn't mean you don't wanna be a lawyer. Also, I bet a good chunk of people think they know what they wanna do, but do something totally opposite in the end.

A lot of 0Ls take the LSAT and apply to law school because law school is inexplicably the default for people who are reasonably smart and either don't know what they want to do or don't want to deal with finding entry-level employment post-UG. As a result, a whole shit ton of people end up going to law school with no real earthly idea of why. An astronomically large number of those people come to regret their decision/wonder what else they could have done with their life. I've seen it first-hand.

OP's post seemed to put him in that camp, but apparently that's not the case.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Normally Harvard with a $21k need-based grant would beat out Rubenstein, imo (though I would normally be in the Rubenstein/Hamilton > Harvard without a substantial grant camp).

But yeah... with $100k in undergrad debt, I'd go with the full-ride at UChicago (as other people have said though, push Columbia on the Hamilton) over Harvard.

[nametaken]

I am not exactly sure what I want to do after school.

Then don't go to law school, dummy.

This is dumb. Just because you don't know what kind of lawyer you wanna be doesn't mean you don't wanna be a lawyer. Also, I bet a good chunk of people think they know what they wanna do, but do something totally opposite in the end.

A lot of 0Ls take the LSAT and apply to law school because law school is inexplicably the default for people who are reasonably smart and either don't know what they want to do or don't want to deal with finding entry-level employment post-UG. As a result, a whole shit ton of people end up going to law school with no real earthly idea of why. An astronomically large number of those people come to regret their decision/wonder what else they could have done with their life. I've seen it first-hand.

OP's post seemed to put him in that camp, but apparently that's not the case.

I'm a she, and nope. I can't fathom why anyone would put themselves through the hell of the LSAT and the application process without knowing for sure they wanted to be a lawyer. Seems crazy. Anyways, back on topic...

[Dany]

I am not exactly sure what I want to do after school.

Then don't go to law school, dummy.

This is dumb. Just because you don't know what kind of lawyer you wanna be doesn't mean you don't wanna be a lawyer. Also, I bet a good chunk of people think they know what they wanna do, but do something totally opposite in the end.

A lot of 0Ls take the LSAT and apply to law school because law school is inexplicably the default for people who are reasonably smart and either don't know what they want to do or don't want to deal with finding entry-level employment post-UG. As a result, a whole shit ton of people end up going to law school with no real earthly idea of why. An astronomically large number of those people come to regret their decision/wonder what else they could have done with their life. I've seen it first-hand.

OP's post seemed to put him in that camp, but apparently that's not the case.

It's the shittiest camp ever.

[tennisking88]

I agree that Harvard has a leg up in certain things

I can only think of one: telling people you know you go to Harvard

[nametaken]

I agree that Harvard has a leg up in certain things

I can only think of one: telling people you know you go to Harvard

Could it possibly be cooler if I say I got in and turned them down?

[ToTransferOrNot]

I agree that Harvard has a leg up in certain things

I can only think of one: telling people you know you go to Harvard

This is an exaggeration. Harvard is better for clerkships (especially at the very high end of things) and academia. For someone with $100k in UG debt, Harvard's LRAP program is a hell of a lot better (OP would get exactly $0 from UChicago's LRAP, in fact, because UChicago's is tied solely to the proportion of your monthly IBR payments that are attributable to your UChicago LS loans).

[soj]

I agree that Harvard has a leg up in certain things

I can only think of one: telling people you know you go to Harvard

Could it possibly be cooler if I say I got in and turned them down?

Definitely douchier.

[bk1]

UChi debt: 80k (includes interest)
HLS debt: 193k (includes interest)

Couple that with your undergrad debt and you're looking at least 300k from HLS and 200k from UChi. HLS isn't going to open additional career paths since you basically need biglaw to cover that kind of debt. With that debt, you're going to be paying $43,000 per year for TEN YEARS (keep in mind that by the time you're done paying it back you will have repaid almost a half million dollars). You could, if you put petal to the metal, pay off your UChi loans in 5 years. With HLS you'd basically need to never leave biglaw for almost decade whereas you could exit earlier from UChi. Furthermore, 80% of biglaw associates end up leaving by year 5. 300k debt from HLS just seems way too risky considering you would be stuck at a job that the vast majority of people get shunted out of before you could pay it all back.

[lsatcrazy]

Man, NYU UG is rough.

Unfortunately, I don't think you can defer the Rubenstein, and next year's supposed to be the last year it's given out.

You could try this - if they really want you they might do it. I think I read something somewhere about a Darrow deferral...

[nametaken]

Normally Harvard with a $21k need-based grant would beat out Rubenstein, imo (though I would normally be in the Rubenstein/Hamilton > Harvard without a substantial grant camp).

But yeah... with $100k in undergrad debt, I'd go with the full-ride at UChicago (as other people have said though, push Columbia on the Hamilton) over Harvard.

I know, I was really happy to get that grant. Thanks for your advice. I definitely think that looking at the amount of total debt I'd have to pay off if I went to Harvard is swaying me to UChicago. Hopefully I will fall in love with the city/campus at ASW and it will make my decision easier.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Normally Harvard with a $21k need-based grant would beat out Rubenstein, imo (though I would normally be in the Rubenstein/Hamilton > Harvard without a substantial grant camp).

But yeah... with $100k in undergrad debt, I'd go with the full-ride at UChicago (as other people have said though, push Columbia on the Hamilton) over Harvard.

I know, I was really happy to get that grant. Thanks for your advice. I definitely think that looking at the amount of total debt I'd have to pay off if I went to Harvard is swaying me to UChicago. Hopefully I will fall in love with the city/campus at ASW and it will make my decision easier.

You will not fall in love with the UChicago campus. Just sayin'. I only had to spend two years there and I still wanted to claw my eyes out by the end - and I'm a Wisconsin kid, so it being "not NYC" was a plus for me.

[Doorkeeper]

I agree that Harvard has a leg up in certain things

I can only think of one: telling people you know you go to Harvard

This is an exaggeration. Harvard is better for clerkships (especially at the very high end of things) and academia. For someone with $100k in UG debt, Harvard's LRAP program is a hell of a lot better (OP would get exactly $0 from UChicago's LRAP, in fact, because UChicago's is tied solely to the proportion of your monthly IBR payments that are attributable to your UChicago LS loans).

Even academia is close to a wash. Yes Harvard sends more people into academia, numbers-wise, but Chicago and Harvard are even when it comes to the % of academia-seekers who secure TT jobs. The real edge for Harvard is only in prestigious clerkships...

[tennisking88]

I agree that Harvard has a leg up in certain things

I can only think of one: telling people you know you go to Harvard

This is an exaggeration. Harvard is better for clerkships (especially at the very high end of things) and academia. For someone with $100k in UG debt, Harvard's LRAP program is a hell of a lot better (OP would get exactly $0 from UChicago's LRAP, in fact, because UChicago's is tied solely to the proportion of your monthly IBR payments that are attributable to your UChicago LS loans).

OP has not said he would pursue clerkships or academia, though both are attainable from Chicago as well.

Edit: if OP goes to Chicago, and has $180k in total debt by the end, that is a good deal. Paying sticker for Chicago ($225k+) itself not unreasonable.

[nametaken]

Man, NYU UG is rough.

Unfortunately, I don't think you can defer the Rubenstein, and next year's supposed to be the last year it's given out.

You could try this - if they really want you they might do it. I think I read something somewhere about a Darrow deferral...

I don't think deferring is an option for me. My family is struggling financially and I need to start making more money to help out. Plus they just spent a ton on applications, LSAT prep, etc. etc. and I think they would disown me if I decided to defer. Especially because I am not saving significant money at my job now.

[nametaken]

I agree that Harvard has a leg up in certain things

I can only think of one: telling people you know you go to Harvard

Could it possibly be cooler if I say I got in and turned them down?

Definitely douchier.

Hahaha, agreed. I was definitely kidding

[Dany]

Normally Harvard with a $21k need-based grant would beat out Rubenstein, imo (though I would normally be in the Rubenstein/Hamilton > Harvard without a substantial grant camp).

But yeah... with $100k in undergrad debt, I'd go with the full-ride at UChicago (as other people have said though, push Columbia on the Hamilton) over Harvard.

I know, I was really happy to get that grant. Thanks for your advice. I definitely think that looking at the amount of total debt I'd have to pay off if I went to Harvard is swaying me to UChicago. Hopefully I will fall in love with the city/campus at ASW and it will make my decision easier.

You will not fall in love with the UChicago campus. Just sayin'. I only had to spend two years there and I still wanted to claw my eyes out by the end - and I'm a Wisconsin kid, so it being "not NYC" was a plus for me.

I absolutely love UChicago's campus. To each his own.

[bk1]

Work and bring down the UG debt. Defer or re-apply.

(Assuming OP knows she wants to do biglaw.) While I'd normally agree, I think OP's options at this point are so good that this is unnecessary. It would take at least half a decade to make a reasonable dent in that 100k. OP could be completely debt free in about the same amount of time by going to UChi-->biglaw for 5 years than if she worked just worked straight for 10 years.

[nametaken]

Normally Harvard with a $21k need-based grant would beat out Rubenstein, imo (though I would normally be in the Rubenstein/Hamilton > Harvard without a substantial grant camp).

But yeah... with $100k in undergrad debt, I'd go with the full-ride at UChicago (as other people have said though, push Columbia on the Hamilton) over Harvard.

I know, I was really happy to get that grant. Thanks for your advice. I definitely think that looking at the amount of total debt I'd have to pay off if I went to Harvard is swaying me to UChicago. Hopefully I will fall in love with the city/campus at ASW and it will make my decision easier.

You will not fall in love with the UChicago campus. Just sayin'. I only had to spend two years there and I still wanted to claw my eyes out by the end - and I'm a Wisconsin kid, so it being "not NYC" was a plus for me.

Yikes.. care to elaborate?

[soj]

Man, NYU UG is rough.

Unfortunately, I don't think you can defer the Rubenstein, and next year's supposed to be the last year it's given out.

You could try this - if they really want you they might do it. I think I read something somewhere about a Darrow deferral...

I think it's worth trying. I believe you can defer Butlers and Hamiltons.

If you defer (or reapply and get into) Harvard, you might actually get less grant aid, assuming you've paid off a good chunk of your UG debt between now and then. (But if you enter an older age bracket between now and then, that might work in your favor for the Expected Parent Contribution calculation.) Obviously, you're still way better off having less debt and a slightly worse scholarship package, but it's worth considering.

I don't remember if Harvard's LIPP covers UG debt, but if it does, and you're considering going into PI, that might make the debt less frightening.

[Bronck]

100k UG debt? Yikes... Taking that into account, go with the Ruby. You don't want to try to pay back 300k -- even with biglaw that's brutal.

[bk1]

I don't remember if Harvard's LIPP covers UG debt, but if it does, and you're considering going into PI, that might make the debt less frightening.

It only covers 30k undergrad debt, and I don't think any LRAP actually covers it all. Which is why PI isn't a realistic option for OP.

ETA: Yale and Harvard only cover 30k of undergraduate debt. Stanford seems to imply that they cover any need-based loan even if its undergrad (with no limit).

I am not exactly sure what I want to do after school.

You better enjoy biglaw since that's about the only feasible way you're going to pay off your loans.

[Perdevise]

UChi debt: 80k (includes interest)
HLS debt: 193k (includes interest)

Couple that with your undergrad debt and you're looking at least 300k from HLS and 200k from UChi. HLS isn't going to open additional career paths since you basically need biglaw to cover that kind of debt. With that debt, you're going to be paying $43,000 per year for TEN YEARS (keep in mind that by the time you're done paying it back you will have repaid almost a half million dollars).

Wow, that is a dumbfounding amount of money.

Chicago is one of my favorite cities on Earth. I haven't been to the law school campus, but I think living in Chicago would be wonderful. And a Rubenstein sounds like it will be attractive to employers.

[soj]

I don't remember if Harvard's LIPP covers UG debt, but if it does, and you're considering going into PI, that might make the debt less frightening.

It only covers 30k undergrad debt, and I don't think any LRAP actually covers it all. Which is why PI isn't a realistic option for OP.

I am not exactly sure what I want to do after school.

You better enjoy biglaw since that's about the only feasible way you're going to pay off your loans.

Yeah, I agree. And since deferring's not an option, OP should really choose Chicago.

[ToTransferOrNot]

I agree that Harvard has a leg up in certain things

I can only think of one: telling people you know you go to Harvard

This is an exaggeration. Harvard is better for clerkships (especially at the very high end of things) and academia. For someone with $100k in UG debt, Harvard's LRAP program is a hell of a lot better (OP would get exactly $0 from UChicago's LRAP, in fact, because UChicago's is tied solely to the proportion of your monthly IBR payments that are attributable to your UChicago LS loans).

OP has not said he would pursue clerkships or academia, though both are attainable from Chicago as well.

She has said that she isn't sure what he would do. Clerkships are absolutely necessary for a lot of the "super-elite" lit boutiques, academia is its own thing, etc. And Harvard's clerkship benefit is absolutely not limited only to feeders - Chicago's overall clerkship placement has suffered in recent years.

By the way OP, I'm a Chicago alum (though I'm a transfer, so I don't have the full perspective). If you want to ask any specific questions about the school, feel free to PM me.

Re UChicago's campus.. let me correct myself. The law school building itself is perfectly fine. Hyde Park as a whole, though, is a dead-zone (in my opinion).

To bk: I'm pretty sure his undergrad loans would be forgiven along with everything else if he did PSLF (correct me if I'm wrong). To be sure though, going to Harvard to take advantage of PSLF is risky when you don't at least have some idea that it's what you want to do up-front. That said, it would suck for OP if they went to UChicago, weren't able to take advantage of Chicago's LRAP at all, and then paid precisely the same amount on her loans before the 10-year forgiveness kicked in. It's just a factor to consider.