NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

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lsatcrazy
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby lsatcrazy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:56 pm

Interesting discussion here. Let me throw a cashflow-forecasting wrench in though: why are all of you using a first-year salary as the amount being given up by deferring? Assuming a set retirement age, you should actually be using his final year working (minus whatever meager salary he can make hunting Kony in his year off). Since OP seems to be sure he is going to biglaw, that should be somewhere in the partner 1M+ range, albeit discounted thirty or so years for inflation. No way NW is worth a million bucks :lol: .

edit: FYI: $1,000,000/(1.05)^30=$231,337-$50,000=$181,337

$1,000,000 final year salary
1.05 discount rate
$50,000 "year off" salary
30 year career

There you have it.
Last edited by lsatcrazy on Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby HarlandBassett » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:01 pm

lsatcrazy wrote:Interesting discussion here. Let me throw a cashflow-forecasting wrench in though: why are all of you using a first-year salary as the amount being given up by deferring? Assuming a set retirement age, you should actually be using his final year working (minus whatever meager salary he can make hunting Kony in his year off). Since OP seems to be sure he is going to biglaw, that should be somewhere in the partner 1M+ range, albeit discounted thirty or so years for inflation. No way NW is worth a million bucks :lol: .


Image

Samara wrote:
HarlandBassett wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Nobody wants to go to school with K-JDers. They are the worst.


what's a K-JDer? contract attorneys?

haha, good guess, but nope. It means someone who went straight through from HS to UG to law school and has thus never had any non-school experience. The K stands for kindergarten as a play off of K-12.

oh.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby HarlandBassett » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:02 pm

and of course, the obligatory.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txuWGoZF3ew

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:50 pm

Go where you want. This is probably a toss up.

kscott813
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby kscott813 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:03 pm

Again thanks for the responses guys, a lot of wisdom has been shared here.

A few points,

Im not offended by NU's offer. Its hard to be offended when someone is offering you money lol. They really like to boast that almost all of their class is at least a year out. It helps them stand out in the t14. I completely understand that.

I just don't really want to defer. I am still seriously considering it, but a year of life is a long time. There is definitely an opportunity cost associated with losing one year in your career. How to quantify it is certainly up to a lot of interpretation, but the point is it clearly has some value.

So while the differentials in schollys is about $100,000, when you factor in opportunity cost + intagibles, the difference becomes smaller. ( I have a lot of friends living in New York and family living in Boston. No contacts close to Chicago...)

As for Northwestern having better name recognition, that is not true at least from where I am from. Most people don't know NU that well unless they are from the area, just about everyone is like OMG NYU.

Associates do the most menial work (doc review, discovery, etc) and according to my experience, the ones that feel entitled and sulky about the quality of work they are given are the first to leave. Pretty much everyone has to pay their dues to excel and working in a menial job helps one develop that mentality. I don't know how many 22 year olds know this. I certainly didn't at that age.


I am a firm believer that you can't really understand something like this unless you actually go through it, but I think I have a pretty good idea what I would be getting into.

My brother just got out of school and works at a small firm. Even there he is working 13-14 hour days, and weekend time. Its a tough job market and to earn big buck you have to work hard. I think I am prepared for it, but of course nobody can ever know...

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kennethellenparcell
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby kennethellenparcell » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:37 pm

kscott813 wrote: I am a firm believer that you can't really understand something like this unless you actually go through it, but I think I have a pretty good idea what I would be getting into.

My brother just got out of school and works at a small firm. Even there he is working 13-14 hour days, and weekend time. Its a tough job market and to earn big buck you have to work hard. I think I am prepared for it, but of course nobody can ever know.. .


Let me just say that with the economy tanking, some firms have proposed alternative fee structures that allow fresh out of college grads to get some exposure to associate level work as paralegals. More efficiency that way. These opportunities are not easy to find but they are out there. So it is possible to know pretty much exactly what you are getting yourself into.

I also am a firm proponent of getting some exposure to the biglaw lifestyle, even if it's through talking to former and current biglaw associates, before deciding if it's what you want. University alumni networks generally allow ample opportunity to do just this. It's not a decision you should make lightly. Best advice I ever got was - do not go to law school if you don't think you will derive intellectual satisfaction from the work. I think the profession would be a lot happier as a whole if people went into it because they felt they would enjoy the work rather than because of the enticement of the six-figure salary.

In any case, none of this is really directed at you OP. Just general musings about the field of law.

kaiser
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby kaiser » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:42 pm

Haven't read the thread, but just wanted to give OP my input:

I got to NYU, and I think without the slightest doubt that you should go to NU and save the extra 100K. I love NYU to death, and think it would be a great choice for anyone who has any desire to work in NYC biglaw or high level public interest, but I could never justify it if I were getting 100K extra from a lower T14 school. If you want biglaw out of NYU, you will probably get it. The vast majority of people I know had their choice of great firms, so perhaps its just the shock value of hearing "I'm thinking about forgoing 100K in scholarship" that just rubs me the wrong way. Thus, I don't think there is a "wrong" choice here.

I guess if your goal is NYC biglaw, NYU is your dream school, and you really like all the intangibles of NYU over NU, then it is justified. But unless all of the above is true, I think NU would be wise.

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sunynp
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby sunynp » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:49 pm

kscott813 wrote:Again thanks for the responses guys, a lot of wisdom has been shared here.

A few points,

Im not offended by NU's offer. Its hard to be offended when someone is offering you money lol. They really like to boast that almost all of their class is at least a year out. It helps them stand out in the t14. I completely understand that.

I just don't really want to defer. I am still seriously considering it, but a year of life is a long time. There is definitely an opportunity cost associated with losing one year in your career. How to quantify it is certainly up to a lot of interpretation, but the point is it clearly has some value.

So while the differentials in schollys is about $100,000, when you factor in opportunity cost + intagibles, the difference becomes smaller. ( I have a lot of friends living in New York and family living in Boston. No contacts close to Chicago...)

As for Northwestern having better name recognition, that is not true at least from where I am from. Most people don't know NU that well unless they are from the area, just about everyone is like OMG NYU.

Associates do the most menial work (doc review, discovery, etc) and according to my experience, the ones that feel entitled and sulky about the quality of work they are given are the first to leave. Pretty much everyone has to pay their dues to excel and working in a menial job helps one develop that mentality. I don't know how many 22 year olds know this. I certainly didn't at that age.


I am a firm believer that you can't really understand something like this unless you actually go through it, but I think I have a pretty good idea what I would be getting into.

My brother just got out of school and works at a small firm. Even there he is working 13-14 hour days, and weekend time. Its a tough job market and to earn big buck you have to work hard. I think I am prepared for it, but of course nobody can ever know...


I don't understand this, don't you need to include the cost of the interest (plus origination fees) on your loans? That principal and interest payment isn't an intangible. To repay 100,000 in ten years it is more than a thousand dollars a month.

Aren't there other things you want to do with that loan money? What could you be buying instead or investing that loan money in - isn't that a cost as well? If you invested the money, you would have a great financial cushion that you wouldn't have otherwise.

I think being debt free is worth much more than the one year of your life. I look at this as you pocketing 100,000 without having to do anything for it. Many lawyers take a year off and it hasn't diminished their career in any way.

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Samara
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby Samara » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:24 pm

kscott813 wrote:a year of life is a long time.

I hope this doesn't come off as condescending or mean, but it's a statement like this that makes me think that you would benefit greatly from taking a year off. I know you're in a hurry to get started, but you have an opportunity here that you will never have again. I'm sure you've been busting your ass in UG, and you'll definitely have to bust your ass in law school to get biglaw and then be busting your ass to stay in biglaw. With a year off, you can really figure out how to be an adult before your life gets really stressful. Is there not a part of you that wants to have some time to enjoy life while you're still young?

A year of life is NOT a long time. Especially when you're getting such concrete benefits. I think taking a year off is a unique experience that will benefit you greatly. I don't know anyone who regrets taking time off before law school and everyone I know who did is soooo glad they did. But even if you are skeptical of that, taking the NU deal will practically eliminate your risk. Yes, most people who want biglaw at NYU get it, but so do people at NU (average 4th in NLJ placement, higher than NYU), and what if you don't end up being "most people?" At NU, unemployment wouldn't be the crushing problem it would be at NYU.

t14fanboy
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby t14fanboy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:32 pm

You'd be out of your mind not to take NU up on its full ride offer.

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smokeylarue
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby smokeylarue » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:12 am

Unless you have rich parents who are picking up your law school tab (and there's no problem if this is true), I think you'd be pretty insane/dumb to throw away a free ride at a basically peer school.

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JustE
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby JustE » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:23 am

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/c ... lWFCzasJ/0

^part of the reason I'm taking $$$ over NYU. Well, that and what I've previously mentioned...

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Perdevise
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby Perdevise » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:19 pm

NYU is in the news a lot recently for inflating its big law placement numbers. NU tuition free means that you'll be set even if you go midlaw or PI/government (or unemployment, as per Samara; I think some said big law is even MORE likely from NU than NYU). The one year of big law pay you may or may not miss is more than made up for by the savings in debt and interest and whatever you earn in your deferred year. Plus, as a K-JD, the experience of going to work every day will be illuminating, whether you learn relevant skills or not. But it sounds like you already made your decision.

kscott813
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby kscott813 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:02 pm

I don't understand this, don't you need to include the cost of the interest (plus origination fees) on your loans? That principal and interest payment isn't an intangible. To repay 100,000 in ten years it is more than a thousand dollars a month.

Aren't there other things you want to do with that loan money? What could you be buying instead or investing that loan money in - isn't that a cost as well? If you invested the money, you would have a great financial cushion that you wouldn't have otherwise.

I think being debt free is worth much more than the one year of your life. I look at this as you pocketing 100,000 without having to do anything for it. Many lawyers take a year off and it hasn't diminished their career in any way.


I did include it. Including extra interest cost, the extra cost would be around $100,000

But otherwise I understand what you are all saying...I am definitely strongly considering NU

CanadianWolf
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:51 pm

Have you visited Northwestern ? Amazing setting in an upscale, sophisticated part of Chicago. NU looks out over an ocean (Lake Michigan). Of course, not too many complain about Greenwich Village.

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banjo
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby banjo » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:23 pm

I agree with CanadianWolf about Northwestern's location. OP, if you're looking for a law school with a lot of urban energy, I don't think NU will disappoint, even compared to NYU. Definitely worth a visit.

kscott813
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby kscott813 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:42 pm

banjo wrote:I agree with CanadianWolf about Northwestern's location. OP, if you're looking for a law school with a lot of urban energy, I don't think NU will disappoint, even compared to NYU. Definitely worth a visit.


Sadly I don't have time to visit before the April 1st deadline :(

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sunynp
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby sunynp » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:47 pm

kscott813 wrote:
banjo wrote:I agree with CanadianWolf about Northwestern's location. OP, if you're looking for a law school with a lot of urban energy, I don't think NU will disappoint, even compared to NYU. Definitely worth a visit.


Sadly I don't have time to visit before the April 1st deadline :(


OP - it is just a plane ride away. If you need to make this decision just go and look around.

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HarlandBassett
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby HarlandBassett » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:57 pm

JustE wrote:http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/cap_and_groans_Pt9SRPFvVJiikhlWFCzasJ/0

^part of the reason I'm taking $$$ over NYU. Well, that and what I've previously mentioned...

i guess this article was pretty timely for this thread.

"On campus, the goal, and expectation, for most students, is to get a big-law job earning $150,000 out of the gate. “To want a big-law job and not get one is a pretty big deal,” said a first-year Columbia Law student, who noted that many students turn down scholarships from lower-ranked schools in order to attend. "

kscott813
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby kscott813 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:10 am

So if anybody is interest I think im going NU :P

I wish I was NY, but Chicago sounds not too shabby

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Bronck
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby Bronck » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:11 am

kscott813 wrote:So if anybody is interest I think im going NU :P

I wish I was NY, but Chicago sounds not too shabby


It's the right choice. You can always bid NY too, lol.

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Dany
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby Dany » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:17 am

kscott813 wrote:So if anybody is interest I think im going NU :P

I wish I was NY, but Chicago sounds not too shabby

Congrats on the decision! Chicago is wonderful, but you'll still be back in NYC in no time if that's where you want to work!




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