NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

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jjcheng
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby jjcheng » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:16 am

kscott813 wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:Above analysis is worthless since it doesn't take into account the interest of tens of thousands of dollars. OP if you don't see the value in free tuition at a school like NW, you're either a flame or just retarded.


Thank you for the insult, but people in the real world have a lot more sympathy for my dilemma.

Yes I understand a full ride at northwestern is awesome, but NYU wins all of the intangibles.

*Like the location A LOT better
*Better School
*Chicago is a declining city, I see NY as a much more stable market in the long term
*Love the culture at NYU
*DONT have to defer

I honestly don't understand the negative vibes here. Yes I am fully aware that going to Northwestern for (essentially) full tuition is a great deal and I am extremely lucky to have the offer. On the other hand going to NYU for 50% tuition is also a great deal. A lot of people have gone paying way more and ended up just fine.

I appreciate the feedback. My heart says NYU, but logic says Northwestern. I understood a lot of people here would say to go to Northwestern and I understand that. I am definitely taking everyone's advice into consideration, but that doesn't mean I'm some kind of idiot for considering my options :roll:

Going back to the opportunity cost of deferral...

One year's lost wages lets say $160,000
After taxes, etc,

Lets say $80,000

Now I also can work this year, but most good paying jobs for someone with my experience are already taken.

So I end up with a job that pays my living expenses, plus lets say I pocket 10-15K

That means the Opportunity cost is around $65k

Assume $100,000 difference in schollys based on loan payments,

$35,000 difference. Still significant, but not outrageous considering perks of going to preferred school.


Now of course there is the added benefit that the NU is a safer option, but I am fairly confident in my abilities to land a job in big law. Yes I know there are going to be naysayers that it is a "flip of a coin", but I guess I am a risk-taker.

All of that being said, yes I still see the wisdom in going to NU and am still considering it. I just don't see how NYU is a retarded choice...


OP: yeah, there are insecure trolls everywhere on the internetz, TLS is no exception.

What numbers can't tell you is how you feel about a place. If NYU is your dream school, you will regret not taking the chance. If your heart is not in it at NU, then I think it will make a huge difference in motivation and perhaps grades.

I had a similar choice between a safe and risky option. U of Toronto (home, basically free) vs. CLS (probably sticker), and after thinking about it and talking to friends and family, I knew that even if I ended up great out of Toronto I would always ask myself "what if". If I did horribly out of CLS, I knew I gave it a shot at least. Of course, it's different cuz these are two different countries with different legal markets, but you can see the parallel.

[As an aside, personally I think unless you borrow every penny and interest rates skyrocket in the coming years, NYU doesn't look horrible financially either, it's riskier, sure. But 1. it's hard to quantify this risk given poor data and 2. if you do well @ NYU, then it's just fine.]

kscott813
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby kscott813 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:17 am

Because biglaw is in no way a guarantee and you can pretty much mitigate all the risk of law school by going to NU with around 60-70k initial debt.


NYU places 40% of its graduates in big law. Considering all the people that don't want big law(clerkships, academia, pi, etc) lets be conservative and say 60-70% of people who want big law get it. So if you stay above the median, you have an extremely high chance of getting big law.

I know everybody probably thinks this, but I am completely confident in my ability to at least be that high in the class.

On the other hand NYU's initial debt will be a little over 160k. You factor in interest on that bad boy and you're looking at around 185k at graduation. Your biglaw salary is going to be a lot lower once you factor in loan repayments. With a 10 year repayment plan you're looking at 25k/year. With a 5 year repayment plan you're looking at 44k/year.

Assuming a 1L job where I make 15-20 an hour, then a 2L job were I could make $20,000-$30,000, that could be offset at least a little bit.


But yes, otherwise you are right, it is certainly the more risky option.

[url]I don't think you should be concerned about not being able to get a NY job after graduating from NU. Tons of people at the school go to NY. If, however, the NY job market tanks & you are at NYU, you wouldn't be able to get Chicago jobs without ties (or high grades). Same things applies to other regions in the US, save Wash DC[/url]

Thanks this is very usual info!

lso, you should probably be cautious about being so confident about your ability to make great grades & get biglaw - there are a lot of smart people at T14 schools who probably have >= your LSAT score and/or your undergrad grades.


I think if I can get over the median I should be fairly safe. Since my LSAT/GPA are above both of NYU's 75th, its not unreasonable to think that I can get slightly over the median of my class rank.

Maybe that is arrogant, but I think its a logical conclusion. Its not like I'm assuming I am going to be the top of my class. I am sure I won't be, but with NYU's employment stats middle of the pack should cut it.

Thanks though definitely considering your input.

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bk1
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby bk1 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:24 am

So you made this thread to just refute every response with your optimism bias? It is unreasonable to think that being over NYU's 75th will have a statistically meaningful impact on your chances of being above median. First, LSAT/GPA only account for 20% of your 1L grades (that other 80% might come to bite you in the ass). Second, the range of LSAT/GPA's at any school is so small that you can't use your LSAT/GPA as a predictor. I know people with poor GPA/LSAT's at the top and bottom of the curve and I know good GPA/LSAT's at the top and bottom of the curve.

It's also unlikely that your 1L job will pay you anything (not to mention that CoA does not factor in summer CoL). On top of that, whatever you make during 1L/2L summer would be the same at NU or NYU so it's a moot point.

kscott813
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby kscott813 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:33 am

So you made this thread to just refute every response with your optimism bias?

No, I made it to get meaningful advice, and I definitely got some of that.

I still think its valid to include opportunity cost of missing out on a year into the equation, and when you do things become far less "retarded" as some posters on here seem to think I am being.

If I had applied to jobs earlier this would be a lot easier. I could have probably gotten 40-60K job with my undergrad and that would have made the op cost way less. But as it is, most companies that hire people out of college have already filled their positions. This means I have little chance of getting a job that is going to do anything other than covering my living expenses.

On the other hand I think I know I can't count on getting a job in big law, but I am confident. As an online persona that obviously means nothing to you, and would not factor into your advice. That is fine, but that does not mean it should not factor into mine.

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bk1
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby bk1 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:37 am

kscott813 wrote:On the other hand I think I know I can't count on getting a job in big law, but I am confident. As an online persona that obviously means nothing to you, and would not factor into your advice. That is fine, but that does not mean it should not factor into mine.


But it shouldn't factor into yours. You realize your optimism bias. You should then correct for it and NOT factor it in. By factoring it in you are confirming optimism bias rather than accounting for it (which admittedly most people suffer from).

Another factor is that yes even if biglaw was 100% guaranteed, the opportunity cost might be close (I think once you factor in interest that NU still comes out at least 20k+ ahead). But the real point is that you are basically getting paid a biglaw salary without having to work the accompanying hours. If you leave biglaw at year 3 (which 1/2 of people do) you will still have over 100k debt from NYU but you will be debt free from NU. If you look at it from a long run perspective you make more money from NU since you get paid a biglaw salary for an additional year that you don't do biglaw. So something like this for a 10 year timeline:

NYU - 3 years school --> 5 years biglaw --> 2 years in-house
NU - 1 year off --> 3 years school --> 5 years biglaw --> 1 year in-house

NU comes down to what amounts to 6 years of biglaw and 1 year of in-house (salarywise) whereas NYU is 5 years biglaw and 2 years in-house. But keep in mind only about 20% of biglaw associates reach year 5.

It will also be easier to afford to do non-biglaw things coming from NU (e.g. clerking).

kscott813
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby kscott813 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:48 am

I don't think it is terribly optimistic to think I can get the middle of the pack, but there is no point in arguing over it.

I didn't post here to argue with you, or anyone else. I came here for advice, and trust me I am certainly listening to it. Before I started reading this forum tonight I was 100% NYU and now I am seriously reconsidering things. You all make very good points and NU certainly seems like the more prudent choice. At the same time the thought of being in New York for (at least) the next three years is very exciting to me.

The only reason I have been defensive is because of the tone of several of the responses. I haven't met anyone in real life who thinks it is such a bad idea to go to NYU on scholarship......

I do appreciate all the advice though!

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bk1
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby bk1 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:54 am

I'm not saying its a bad idea. I'm just saying that you're taking an unnecessary and completely avoidable risk because you have a better option.

You can get middle of the pack, I don't think that's being too optimistic. My point is that there's at least a non-marginal chance that you don't. Furthermore there's a non-marginal chance that you miss the biglaw boat (at either school). You're okay with risk and that's fine (I am too considering I'm paying sticker). My point is that you don't have to. You could completely avoid that risk by taking the higher scholarship offer.

kscott813
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby kscott813 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:58 am

bk1 wrote:I'm not saying its a bad idea. I'm just saying that you're taking an unnecessary and completely avoidable risk because you have a better option.

You can get middle of the pack, I don't think that's being too optimistic. My point is that there's at least a non-marginal chance that you don't. Furthermore there's a non-marginal chance that you miss the biglaw boat (at either school). You're okay with risk and that's fine (I am too considering I'm paying sticker). My point is that you don't have to. You could completely avoid that risk by taking the higher scholarship offer.


Yea, I have to decide NYU by the end of the month. Going to be a stressful few weeks.....

I think I am going to try to use NU to leverage some extra $$ from NYU :P

lblelalr
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby lblelalr » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:00 am

I'm actually in the same boat as OP (exactly the same amount at both schools) but I have no overwhelming desire for NYU. I think a bigger question is what you're going to do with that year off if you decide on NU. The only reason NU has such great job placement numbers is because of the student body's impressive w.e. I might be mistaken, but a lot of ppl at NU used to be in finance, consulting, i-banking etc. So if OP can't find a decent job for the year off, OP might stick out like a sore thumb during OCI due to lack of quality w.e. For me at least, the engineering hiring season is mostly over and if I took a year off I would probably have to do stupid work like tutoring or teaching English.

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bk1
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby bk1 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:03 am

lblelalr wrote:The only reason NU has such great job placement numbers is because of the student body's impressive w.e. I might be mistaken, but a lot of ppl at NU used to be in finance, consulting, i-banking etc.


I wouldn't say that it's the only reason and while the first part is very plausible, I haven't seen any data to confirm that's the case. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there is a boost, but it is hard to quantify (as someone with shitty work experience I was concerned as well).

The second issue really isn't true. While there are more of those types at NU, they are definitely not the majority. There are tons of baristas and office lackeys here.

09042014
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:07 am

bk1 wrote:
kscott813 wrote:At NU I figure I would most likely end up with a job in Chicago.


This is not true unless you chose to bid Chicago.


NU places better in NYC than it does Chicago ITE. Nobody gets stuck in Chicago who doesn't want to be in Chicago.

thebigspoon
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby thebigspoon » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:26 am

Desert Fox wrote:
bk1 wrote:
kscott813 wrote:At NU I figure I would most likely end up with a job in Chicago.


This is not true unless you chose to bid Chicago.


NU places better in NYC than it does Chicago ITE. Nobody gets stuck in Chicago who doesn't want to be in Chicago.


Do you know how NU does in CA? I think I saw somewhere it was ~11% but there's probably a lot of self-selection there. Do most ppl who want CA get CA?

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tdicks
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby tdicks » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:51 am

lblelalr wrote: if I took a year off I would probably have to do stupid work like tutoring or teaching English.


You might consider this too lowly for you, but going abroad and doing this could likely be the best year of your life, and a great break between undergrad and law school.

jjcheng
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby jjcheng » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:26 am

tdicks wrote:
lblelalr wrote: if I took a year off I would probably have to do stupid work like tutoring or teaching English.


You might consider this too lowly for you, but going abroad and doing this could likely be the best year of your life, and a great break between undergrad and law school.


+1

Learning a second language (or brushing up on one as I am right now) can seriously help down the line in a lot transactional work, hell maybe even litigation work in the future.

EDIT: so the grammar police don't harass me

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JustE
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby JustE » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:57 am

tl;dr

Take a year. Do something interesting. Enjoy free tuition at the #2 school for biglaw employment.

Did I miss anything?

lsatcrazy
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby lsatcrazy » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:16 am

Hate to interrupt the lulz up in here, but here's a similar thread from two cycles ago:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=111317

Hth

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Tadatsune
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby Tadatsune » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:43 am

I'm going to buck the trend and say if NYU is your dream school then take it.

Yes, this is likely the financially inferior decision / riskier decision, but:

Money doesn't have any value beyond what you put on it. In effect, with the money you would have saved at NU you are purchasingA) Your Dream School, B) 3 years in NYC, and C) a 1 year earlier start on your career. Realize that people make this kind of choice all the time - such as deciding to live in a city with much higher cost of living and taxes, rather than taking a similar paying job elsewhere.

Taken in this light, the only real questions become A) can I afford this? and B) is it worth it?

These are questions only you can answer.

CanadianWolf
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:46 am

Since NYU is your dream school, in your target market & is offering you a substantial scholarship, this is a tough decision. Much depends upon what you will be doing in the deferral year versus the first year after graduating from NYU. (Another consideration is your spouse, if married. Will her career suffer by moving to Chicago for three or four years before moving to New York City ?)
If single & uncommitted, then the NU offer is difficult to pass up. But, in my opinion, it really depends upon your opportunities for the deferral year versus graduating law school a year earlier.

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sunynp
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby sunynp » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:38 am

I'm actually shocked that people make calculations on the assumption they will get a biglaw job and be making $160,000. If you want to make such a calculation, you have to discount it in some way to reflect that real odds that you won't get biglaw.

I think it is a mistake to count the year off as a year of biglaw salary you aren't getting. Dont count on that biglaw salary to repay your loans - there is a non-trivial chance you won't get it. I think the last published stats show about 40% in biglaw from NYU, though those stats are not from this year's OCI. That percentage doesn't include clerks, but that isn't relevant to your calculations, because those clerks aren't making your assumed salary of $160,000.

You can read this years NYU OCI thread for an idea of how it went, but keep in mind that it tends to skew to people who are doing well.

The amount you will save is a real number based on the scholarships you have in hand. Why would you burden yourself with debt you don't have to take on?

If you can graduate without debt, you will have a much brighter future.

New York City isn't going anywhere. Why don't you live here and work on your year off? You might find that NYC looses some of its charm t or you might find out that you love it. A lot of people dream of living in NYC but get tired of it after they have to go through the day to day reality. I love New York but I know it isn't for everyone.

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skers
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby skers » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:55 am

OP, those of us giving advice aren't saying NYU is a bad option. You can read through my posts in this forum. I'm a solid t6 troll. I get that you'd be going to your dream school and living in a great city. I'd visit NW before the NYU scholarship expires to see if you like/can handle the area. 1. There's no way NYU has 100k better placement than NYU 2. I don't think you fully realize what even 100k in debt is. Without it not only do you get to enjoy/save a big law salary before you leave, you have career flexibility. If you want to buy property you can without worrying about the payments on two hundred thousand dollar loans. What if you find, perish the thought, don't actually like or want big law? Without six figure debt you can pretty much do what you want (and with a t10 degree that's a lot of flexibility).

I'd recommend taking a year off to everyone, especially k-jders. Its a good to have a real full-time job before you start putting in 70-80 hour weeks. With a year off you can save money (mine allowed me to save two years' COL and significantly lessen my debt load). Have solid experiences with friends, family, and girls and make 100k doing it.

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Blindmelon
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby Blindmelon » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:06 pm

TL;DR version: OP wants to take NYU over NW. TLS says take NW, OP gets defensive, and instead of just posting should sack-up and do what he wants to do. If you want someone to make you feel better about your choice, then ask some US News trolls.

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Dany
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby Dany » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:39 pm

Look, if you want to go to NYU, just go. It's not like it really matters to us what an anonymous internet person does with her life. But if you ask for advice, I (as someone who attends her T6 dream school with a similar scholarship) cannot in good conscience tell you to go to NYU. Grades are scary (I have no idea why you're being so irrational about them), the job market is terrifying (not sure why you're so optimistic about that either), and you have the chance to attend an amazing school with no tuition AND spend a year doing something fun or making money. If you're not going to listen to the overwhelming majority of people actually attending these law schools instead of your friends at home who probably know nothing about legal hiring, then just stop posting about it and attend NYU. Is your life going to be ruined if you go to NYU? Probably not. But there are still risks, which you could get rid of by attending another awesome school.

rad lulz
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby rad lulz » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:46 pm

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

keg411
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby keg411 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:05 pm

OP, are you even from the New York area? If you are, then I could see why NYU could be a good decision, only because you know you're comfortable there and have friends around. However, if you just think of NYC as some mythical, magical place, take the money and go to NU. Living in NYC isn't the be-all-end-all... and especially not on a student budget (and I say this as someone who is from the NYC area and will be doing my 2L SA there).

You can get NYC BigLaw from either of these schools if that's really your end goal. Might as well live somewhere else for three years and Chicago is a nice and much more affordable place to be a student.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:18 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
CLS 3L here.

1) My main options when I applied were NWestern at full tuition, with the stipulation that I work a year, CLS at 1/2 price, and NYU at 50K. The choice for CLS over NYU was obvious, but had the amounts been reversed (CLS 50, NYU 1/2) I would have taken NYU without hesitation. The bigger dilemma was NW at full vs. CLS half. I wrestled for quite some time, but in the end I figured that I would not be able to get a job making more than minimum wage for that year and so the extra year of biglaw salary (or whatever salary I could hope to earn after the 3-5 years in biglaw) would be more than the year's salary at min wage + the extra scholly money.

Now I'm an unemployed 3L and this is the one decision I made that just kills me inside. I regret taking the CLS offer and if I had the chance to do it again I would have taken NW. I can go into it in more detail if you want but this decision will probably haunt me for the rest of my career unless I magically luck into a decent job with two months to go in the year.


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