The reality of NYU at Sticker

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Bronck
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Bronck » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:40 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:Two further points about taxes:

1. You get to claim student loan interest as a deduction, and you can claim that deduction as well as the standard deduction. With the amount of interest you would be paying, that should make some difference.

2. The government will (in effect) pay you $10000 to get married, since then you can claim your spouse.


I don't think you can deduct interest if you're making a big law salary.


+1, Tiago said on page 2:

Tiago Splitter wrote:Only the interest is tax-deductible, and only up to $2,500 of it per year, and even then you can't take any deduction if you make more than 75K. So on a biglaw salary none of it would be tax-deductible.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:45 pm

Whoops - just found Tiago's post a minute too late.

Why isn't 'living in Manhattan' a tax deduction?

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Tadatsune
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Tadatsune » Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:48 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:Whoops - just found Tiago's post a minute too late.

Why isn't 'living in Manhattan' a tax deduction?


Verily, tis the opposite.

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BarcaCrossesTheAlps
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:28 pm

Indifferent wrote:
boosk wrote:
Indifferent wrote:
boosk wrote:after 7 years, you've payed $252,000 back on your loan, but still owe another $110,400

*involuntary snicker*


DAMMIT, tls needs a spell checker

Payed is actually a word, so a spellchecker wouldn't catch that. Also, download Chrome, it has spell check built into the browser.


My American Heritage Dictionary gives the information that both spellings are grammatically correct and used in the same manner. However, for the sake of contemporary leanings, it stresses that "paid" is used more often today, as "payed" is an old fashioned way to spell it. Kinda like Potatoe, which is also a correct spelling, just passe.

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Indifferent
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Indifferent » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:50 pm

BarcaCrossesTheAlps wrote:My American Heritage Dictionary gives the information that both spellings are grammatically correct and used in the same manner. However, for the sake of contemporary leanings, it stresses that "paid" is used more often today, as "payed" is an old fashioned way to spell it. Kinda like Potatoe, which is also a correct spelling, just passe.

Prithee, do go on...

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blank403
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby blank403 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:59 pm

sunynp wrote:(in response to the comment that if the ecominy tanks again, all employment outcomes are bad) Many grads from top schools wish they hadn't gone after they got fired, stealth laidoff or deferred in the recession. (one guy I've seen- he has a blog about law- graduated from NYU, got Lathamed from his job in 2009 and has never worked in law again. He had to move back home to Alabama) I don't think it is hyperbolic to remind people that if they lose the grad gamble, they bid poorly, screw up OCI, or the economy tanks, meaning they don't get biglaw - they are going to be struggling for a long time.

People going into six figures of debt for law school make calculations off a biglaw salary as if they already have it. People make calculations that they have a 50% or 80% chance of getting biglaw - and start making financial decisions as if those numbers are real. They calculate what they would be making when they may never even cross the door of a biglaw firm. Even if you took the extreme figure that 80% of NYU grads who want biglaw get it- what happens if you are in the 20% who doesn't. But at a personal level, you either get the job or you don't. If you don't, was your 100,000 plus gamble worth it?

Just the chance for that kind of money seems worth the risk of 6 figure of debt.

Going to law school just because you think you will score a big payday is a mistake. Going into unreasonable amounts of debt that only a certain limited in supply and highly competitive job will allow you to repay is a big risk.


Which is why you should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer.

In that case, even if you are in the 20% who miss out on biglaw, you can still take advantage of IBR, practice law, and not be broke.

For those making 60k, you're only making payments of $545 a month, whether you have $200k debt or $300k debt or whatever it may be. Does it suck to pay student loans for 25 years? Sure. Will it break the bank? Nope.

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Tadatsune
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Tadatsune » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:44 pm

blank403 wrote:
sunynp wrote:(in response to the comment that if the ecominy tanks again, all employment outcomes are bad) Many grads from top schools wish they hadn't gone after they got fired, stealth laidoff or deferred in the recession. (one guy I've seen- he has a blog about law- graduated from NYU, got Lathamed from his job in 2009 and has never worked in law again. He had to move back home to Alabama) I don't think it is hyperbolic to remind people that if they lose the grad gamble, they bid poorly, screw up OCI, or the economy tanks, meaning they don't get biglaw - they are going to be struggling for a long time.

People going into six figures of debt for law school make calculations off a biglaw salary as if they already have it. People make calculations that they have a 50% or 80% chance of getting biglaw - and start making financial decisions as if those numbers are real. They calculate what they would be making when they may never even cross the door of a biglaw firm. Even if you took the extreme figure that 80% of NYU grads who want biglaw get it- what happens if you are in the 20% who doesn't. But at a personal level, you either get the job or you don't. If you don't, was your 100,000 plus gamble worth it?

Just the chance for that kind of money seems worth the risk of 6 figure of debt.

Going to law school just because you think you will score a big payday is a mistake. Going into unreasonable amounts of debt that only a certain limited in supply and highly competitive job will allow you to repay is a big risk.


Which is why you should go to law school if you want to be a lawyer.

In that case, even if you are in the 20% who miss out on biglaw, you can still take advantage of IBR, practice law, and not be broke.

For those making 60k, you're only making payments of $545 a month, whether you have $200k debt or $300k debt or whatever it may be. Does it suck to pay student loans for 25 years? Sure. Will it break the bank? Nope.


I am curious why IBR never seems to factor in to any of these debt discussions. Its always "you'll have 250k debt and no job!!!"

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Bronck
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Bronck » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:45 pm

Because of the huge ass tax bomb after the debt is forgiven and how crushing it is to have debt looming over your head for 20 years.

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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby bk1 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:46 pm

Tadatsune wrote:I am curious why IBR never seems to factor in to any of these debt discussions. Its always "you'll have 250k debt and no job!!!"


Because:

1. 25 year IBR sucks and is awful.
2. 10 year IBR (PSLF) qualifying legal jobs aren't that easy to get.

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Tadatsune
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Tadatsune » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:49 pm

Bronck wrote:Because of the huge ass tax bomb after the debt is forgiven and how crushing it is to have debt looming over your head for 20 years.


Good points, certainly. But ones which should be made each time the subject comes up if the questioner is to get accurate advice.

Follow up: (from the IBR website)

Will forgiven loan amounts be taxed as income?
The U.S. Department of the Treasury determined that debt forgiven through PSLF is not considered taxable income under current law. That means that when you qualify for PSLF, you won't get slapped with a huge tax bill.
Unfortunately, the same good news doesn't extend to debt forgiven through IBR. In response, Congressman Sandy Levin (D-MI) is leading a bipartisan effort to ensure that borrowers who qualify for loan forgiveness through IBR (and Income Contingent Repayment) get the same treatment. Responsible borrowers with modest incomes shouldn't have to pay potentially crippling taxes on forgiven student loans. We are hopeful that this issue will be resolved before any borrowers qualify for forgiveness through IBR. We'll continue to work on this issue and keep you informed. Urge your representatives to support H.R. 2492. Learn more about the bill.


Time to call your congressman.

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Gail
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Gail » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:54 pm

bk1 wrote:
Tadatsune wrote:I am curious why IBR never seems to factor in to any of these debt discussions. Its always "you'll have 250k debt and no job!!!"


Because:

1. 25 year IBR sucks and is awful.
2. 10 year IBR (PSLF) qualifying legal jobs aren't that easy to get.


I thought it was 20 now? Regardless. Making less than 40k a year while doing law sounds truly dreadful.

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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby sunynp » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:56 pm

Tadatsune wrote:
Bronck wrote:Because of the huge ass tax bomb after the debt is forgiven and how crushing it is to have debt looming over your head for 20 years.


Good points, certainly. But ones which should be made each time the subject comes up if the questioner is to get accurate advice.


Because as long as that debt is hanging over your head you will never get credit for anything. Do you think you might want to buy a car or a house someday? What if you want to get married, think they want to take on a life burdened by 6 figures of debt. As long as you aren't making the minimum payments on your loan, the interest keeps building, you will end up with a huge amount of debt. No private lender will ever loan you a dime.

IBR is designed to help the people who can't get jobs to pay their loans. I don't know why anyone would take on this debt and voluntarily become a debt-slave for 25 years under IBR.

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Tadatsune
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Tadatsune » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:01 pm

sunynp wrote:
Tadatsune wrote:
Bronck wrote:Because of the huge ass tax bomb after the debt is forgiven and how crushing it is to have debt looming over your head for 20 years.


Good points, certainly. But ones which should be made each time the subject comes up if the questioner is to get accurate advice.


Because as long as that debt is hanging over your head you will never get credit for anything. Do you think you might want to buy a car or a house someday? What if you want to get married, think they want to take on a life burdened by 6 figures of debt. As long as you aren't making the minimum payments on your loan, the interest keeps building, you will end up with a huge amount of debt. No private lender will ever loan you a dime.

IBR is designed to help the people who can't get jobs to pay their loans. I don't know why anyone would take on this debt and voluntarily become a debt-slave for 25 years under IBR.


That wasn't quite what I was trying to imply. Rather, that taking out the debt and not getting a biglaw job doesn't necessarily have to translate into jumping off the GW bridge. I wasn't trying to imply that IBR was some sort of super awesome private sector alternative to LRAP.

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Gail
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Gail » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:04 pm

Tadatsune wrote:
That wasn't quite what I was trying to imply. Rather, that taking out the debt and not getting a biglaw job doesn't necessarily have to translate into jumping off the GW bridge. I wasn't trying to imply that IBR was some sort of super awesome private sector alternative to LRAP.


I'm wondering what happens with a situation where you need to use IBR for the first 3 years of your career and then can afford to make minimum payments equivalent to 10 years. Do you just start paying more? I'm looking at IBR for 40k salary and 100k of debt. You could pay more than the minimum and survive. Do people do this or is there some penalty?

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Tadatsune
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Tadatsune » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:14 pm

Gail wrote:
Tadatsune wrote:
That wasn't quite what I was trying to imply. Rather, that taking out the debt and not getting a biglaw job doesn't necessarily have to translate into jumping off the GW bridge. I wasn't trying to imply that IBR was some sort of super awesome private sector alternative to LRAP.


I'm wondering what happens with a situation where you need to use IBR for the first 3 years of your career and then can afford to make minimum payments equivalent to 10 years. Do you just start paying more? I'm looking at IBR for 40k salary and 100k of debt. You could pay more than the minimum and survive. Do people do this or is there some penalty?


Check out the IBR website: http://www.ibrinfo.org/can.vp.html

They have a payment calculator, and a few examples - one of which is a doctor who starts out using IBR during his 3 year residency (~45k/year) and then starts pulling down a six figure salary. The debt ends up being payed in full, with the total payed being significantly more than a 10 year repayment plan but less than a standard 25 year plan. In addition, there doesn't seem to be anything from stopping you from aggressively paying down the loan during that time.

What happens when my income increases while I am in IBR?
Because your IBR payment amount is a percentage of your income, your payments will rise as your income increases. Your lender should reassess this annually, and you should check with them to see if you need to fill out additional paperwork.
If your income increases to the point where you no longer have a partial financial hardship, any unpaid interest that has accumulated would be capitalized (added to your total loan balance). You can still stay in IBR, and your payments will be capped at the 10-year standard monthly payment on the balance you owed when you first entered repayment on the loan. You will never be "kicked out" of IBR based on your income. Here's a calculator to find out what that 10-year standard payment would be.


If I sign up for IBR, can I occasionally send in extra money to pay down the principal of my loan?
Yes. Tell your lender in writing, along with the payment, that you want the extra money applied to the principal, and follow up to make sure the payment was properly applied.

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Indifferent
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Indifferent » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:16 pm

There was an interesting article on NY schools posted today on ATL in case you missed it.

New York Post wrote:NYU Law School — which also revised its numbers after The Post contacted it — revealed that 38 students in the class of 2010 counted as employed held temporary positions paid by the school. Students earned $2,000 a month, and the positions lasted between three and six months.

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blank403
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby blank403 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:12 pm

bk1 wrote:
Tadatsune wrote:I am curious why IBR never seems to factor in to any of these debt discussions. Its always "you'll have 250k debt and no job!!!"


Because:

1. 25 year IBR sucks and is awful.
2. 10 year IBR (PSLF) qualifying legal jobs aren't that easy to get.



I think 1 is overstated. IBR sucks and is awful if you can afford the alternative.

On other hand, before IBR, sticker debt and a 40-60k private sector job was killself territory. Less than $600/month in student loan payments is VERY manageable on a 60k salary. In fact, if you were in a 40k / year dead end job as a liberal arts graduate, and law school turns into a 60k / year job with $545 in monthly payments, you are better off financially then you were before.

How many people do you think graduate NYU and both (1) make less than 60k / year, (2) don't qualify for PSLF?

ETA: "better off financially than you were before" does not take into account the earnings you sacrifice during those 3 years, but still, if you are sure you want to be an attorney, then it's a value judgment.

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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby izy223 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:23 pm

Indifferent wrote:There was an interesting article on NY schools posted today on ATL in case you missed it.

New York Post wrote:NYU Law School — which also revised its numbers after The Post contacted it — revealed that 38 students in the class of 2010 counted as employed held temporary positions paid by the school. Students earned $2,000 a month, and the positions lasted between three and six months.



just looked over the revised statistics and NYU has already revised the statistics.

working in a law firm went down from 71.7 percent in 2009 to 61.7 percent in 2010. a full ten percent. in addition 160+ salaries are no longer in the 25th 50th and 75th percentile which means that at a minimum 25% of the 60% of NYU graduates who work in a law firm no longer work in big law. So for NYU now you need to be in the top 45% to get a job- a significant difference (numbers are rounded and done by head)

should i be reconsidering NYU now oh are we going to find out that all law school numbers are just ass skewed and they will be changing them soon

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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby blank403 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:28 pm

izy223 wrote:
Indifferent wrote:There was an interesting article on NY schools posted today on ATL in case you missed it.

New York Post wrote:NYU Law School — which also revised its numbers after The Post contacted it — revealed that 38 students in the class of 2010 counted as employed held temporary positions paid by the school. Students earned $2,000 a month, and the positions lasted between three and six months.



just looked over the revised statistics and NYU has already revised the statistics.

working in a law firm went down from 71.7 percent in 2009 to 61.7 percent in 2010. a full ten percent. in addition 160+ salaries are no longer in the 25th 50th and 75th percentile which means that at a minimum 25% of the 60% of NYU graduates who work in a law firm no longer work in big law. So for NYU now you need to be in the top 45% to get a job- a significant difference (numbers are rounded and done by head)

should i be reconsidering NYU now oh are we going to find out that all law school numbers are just ass skewed and they will be changing them soon


depends on your definition of biglaw.

market salary? QoL you can afford in a city? 145k in houston is going to go further than 160k in nyc.

NLJ250? there are a bunch of NLJ250 firms that don't pay 160k.

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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby izy223 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:32 pm

blank403 wrote:
izy223 wrote:
Indifferent wrote:There was an interesting article on NY schools posted today on ATL in case you missed it.

New York Post wrote:NYU Law School — which also revised its numbers after The Post contacted it — revealed that 38 students in the class of 2010 counted as employed held temporary positions paid by the school. Students earned $2,000 a month, and the positions lasted between three and six months.



just looked over the revised statistics and NYU has already revised the statistics.

working in a law firm went down from 71.7 percent in 2009 to 61.7 percent in 2010. a full ten percent. in addition 160+ salaries are no longer in the 25th 50th and 75th percentile which means that at a minimum 25% of the 60% of NYU graduates who work in a law firm no longer work in big law. So for NYU now you need to be in the top 45% to get a job- a significant difference (numbers are rounded and done by head)

should i be reconsidering NYU now oh are we going to find out that all law school numbers are just ass skewed and they will be changing them soon


depends on your definition of biglaw.

market salary? QoL you can afford in a city? 145k in houston is going to go further than 160k in nyc.

NLJ250? there are a bunch of NLJ250 firms that don't pay 160k.


good point i define biglaw as 160+ in DC and NYC and the equivalent firms around the country (their actual salary doesnt matter because the 25% point for NYU private firms is in the 60's- so def not biglaw)

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Bronck
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Bronck » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:32 pm

izy223 wrote:
Indifferent wrote:There was an interesting article on NY schools posted today on ATL in case you missed it.

New York Post wrote:NYU Law School — which also revised its numbers after The Post contacted it — revealed that 38 students in the class of 2010 counted as employed held temporary positions paid by the school. Students earned $2,000 a month, and the positions lasted between three and six months.



just looked over the revised statistics and NYU has already revised the statistics.

working in a law firm went down from 71.7 percent in 2009 to 61.7 percent in 2010. a full ten percent. in addition 160+ salaries are no longer in the 25th 50th and 75th percentile which means that at a minimum 25% of the 60% of NYU graduates who work in a law firm no longer work in big law. So for NYU now you need to be in the top 45% to get a job- a significant difference (numbers are rounded and done by head)

should i be reconsidering NYU now oh are we going to find out that all law school numbers are just ass skewed and they will be changing them soon


Lol what? Bro, that's not what it means at all.

1st, that's class of 2010 data, which is outdated. By all accounts, hiring seems to be picking up again.
2nd, you're not counting A3 clerkships and prestigious PI/gov (hard to determine the percent, but even when the economy was doing well NYU placed 10% into PI, which was far higher than other non-HYS schools).

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izy223
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby izy223 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:36 pm

Bronck wrote:
izy223 wrote:
Indifferent wrote:There was an interesting article on NY schools posted today on ATL in case you missed it.

New York Post wrote:NYU Law School — which also revised its numbers after The Post contacted it — revealed that 38 students in the class of 2010 counted as employed held temporary positions paid by the school. Students earned $2,000 a month, and the positions lasted between three and six months.



just looked over the revised statistics and NYU has already revised the statistics.

working in a law firm went down from 71.7 percent in 2009 to 61.7 percent in 2010. a full ten percent. in addition 160+ salaries are no longer in the 25th 50th and 75th percentile which means that at a minimum 25% of the 60% of NYU graduates who work in a law firm no longer work in big law. So for NYU now you need to be in the top 45% to get a job- a significant difference (numbers are rounded and done by head)

should i be reconsidering NYU now oh are we going to find out that all law school numbers are just ass skewed and they will be changing them soon


Lol what? Bro, that's not what it means at all.

1st, that's class of 2010 data, which is outdated. By all accounts, hiring seems to be picking up again.
2nd, you're not counting A3 clerkships and prestigious PI/gov (hard to determine the percent, but even when the economy was doing well NYU placed 10% into PI, which was far higher than other non-HYS schools).



1st agreed

2nd- those jobs are counted in the 2009 and the 2010. so its still a significant reduction in job placement in light of A3 clerkships and PI

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Bronck
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Bronck » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:38 pm

izy223 wrote:1st agreed

2nd- those jobs are counted in the 2009 and the 2010. so its still a significant reduction in job placement in light of A3 clerkships and PI


I know. I never said that it wasn't worse in 2010 -- all schools got hit by the crash. But it's erroneous to claim that you need to be in the top 45% to get a biglaw job from NYU.

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izy223
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby izy223 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:48 pm

Bronck wrote:
izy223 wrote:1st agreed

2nd- those jobs are counted in the 2009 and the 2010. so its still a significant reduction in job placement in light of A3 clerkships and PI


I know. I never said that it wasn't worse in 2010 -- all schools got hit by the crash. But it's erroneous to claim that you need to be in the top 45% to get a biglaw job from NYU.



ok even if i factor in clerk ships and prestigious PI. my number the number creeps up to 55 60 being very generous far less then the 70-80 percent that i was told it was before the revision. it makes it a little harder to stomach nyu at sticker.

Disclaimer- these numbers are not changing my decision barring something crazy happening tonight at 12 it will remain a t6 school just the numbers are much worse.

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Bronck
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Re: The reality of NYU at Sticker

Postby Bronck » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:56 pm

Still not sure why you're using c/o 2010 data as a proxy for current hiring trends. They did OCI in 2008.

It looks like for c/o 2012 (OCI in 2010), CCN had low-mid 70s 2L SA placement. I wouldn't be surprised if c/o 2013 (OCI last summer) is similar, or perhaps slightly higher. The offer rates appear to be climbing again too.




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