NLJ250, Biglaw and Berkeley Forum

[jim-green]

Yes, Boalt tied with Chicago at #6 a few years ago and was #13 before that, then #9, then #7. The rankings are doing something wrong. Large institutions don't fluctuate in quality like this. Thanks for your thoughts.

In all honesty, the way I personally tier schools goes HYS, then CCNB, where you go to chicago if you want the midwest/academia, Columbia or NYU if you are set on the best NYC law firms, and Boalt in any other case. I personally give it a clear boost over MVP because of the fact that it is in Cali and also has the cool little grading system. Lets keep in mind that boalt has gone from like 5 or 6, down to 13, then now back up to 7th... It is a weird school to rank accurately.

[bk1]

Yes, Boalt tied with Chicago at #6 a few years ago and was #13 before that, then #9, then #7. The rankings are doing something wrong. Large institutions don't fluctuate in quality like this. Thanks for your thoughts.

Publishing almost the exact same rankings each year is likely less profitable than posting rankings with large fluctuations.

[jim-green]

What is JDS Uniphase? I am older and cannot afford a major financial mistake at this age. Hence, I am thinking of everything I can that may be a reason not to attend Boalt or law school at all. Just playing the devil's advocate. If you think these are paper reasons, then I am glad, because I think these are the last reasons I had not to come. Oh and yeah, a big decision I am trying to make now is whether to start studying for the June LSAT to get off the NYU/Chi WL. Thanks for the good tips.

This is nothing like putting all your money in JDS Uniphase. (been there done that). Is there a reason you keep coming up with paper thin reasons not to come?

[Rotor]

What is JDS Uniphase?

Click http://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:JDSU

Then click "Max". You'll probably have a good guess when I made my first foray into tech stocks. Didn't quite buy at the peak, but not too long before. Thankfully it was only a handful of shares, not my life savings. (You analogized to putting everything into tech stocks and it brought back this bad memory. It's the craziest example of tech bubble I know.)

[jim-green]

Thanks, Rotor! What I meant by 'putting all my eggs in one basket' is as follows. If I give up my job and go to Berkeley, and then hate the new career, I am stuck in it for 30 years paying off the loans. Can't ditch and study linguistics at that time. Poor analogy on my part. To me, it seems I am tying myself into a corner, and am then stuck with that basket, and maybe a lot of folks are. (this is all idle tangential thinking on my part, as I slowly come to my decision)

You analogized to putting everything into tech stocks and it brought back this bad memory.

[Rotor]

Thanks, Rotor! What I meant by 'putting all my eggs in one basket' is as follows. If I give up my job and go to Berkeley, and then hate the new career, I am stuck in it for 30 years paying off the loans. Can't ditch and study linguistics at that time. Poor analogy on my part. To me, it seems I am tying myself into a corner, and am then stuck with that basket, and maybe a lot of folks are. (this is all idle tangential thinking on my part, as I slowly come to my decision)

You analogized to putting everything into tech stocks and it brought back this bad memory.

I know. Thankfully, my own situation made it easy to make that decision... Skip along laterally for a few years then get forced out or get out on my own terms/timing etc.

I do agree that the law school or not is a much bigger decision for you than where to go.

[jim-green]

Prosecutors aren't necessarily paid less than litigators. Salaries at the same office are the same regardless of field. However, most patent prosecution is done at firms where the overall salaries are often lower than Big Law salaries, but so are the hourly requirements.

Thanks, this was very helpful to read. It is sunny and 70 today where we live. We get weather like this for 2 weeks a year, one week in the spring, and one week in the fall. So I was wondering how nice it would be to add a few more weeks a year of weather like this, by moving to Berkeley.

[jim-green]

Are there any statistics on the in-house salaries associates receive after say, five years as an associate at a law firm? I talked to the attorneys at my company, and they say associates start at my company at $130K after 5 years at a law firm. Obviously, my company is not hiring associates from Wachtell or Cravath. I wonder what this would be for the in-house counsel at SV tech companies, since many law firm associates leave or are exited after 5-7 years.

[Emu Flu]

Are there any statistics on the in-house salaries associates receive after say, five years as an associate at a law firm? I talked to the attorneys at my company, and they say associates start at my company at $130K after 5 years at a law firm. Obviously, my company is not hiring associates from Wachtell or Cravath. I wonder what this would be for the in-house counsel at SV tech companies, since many law firm associates leave or are exited after 5-7 years.

Glassdoor.com is popular for finding salaries at companies in Silicon Valley. Though it is a bit difficult to find a listing/review for an in-house attorney's salary there. I've found some for companies that have large in-house departments, such as Intel.

[jim-green]

I talked to an attorney at my company who said patent prosecutors are a Tier 2 position at law firms and are not on partner track, unlike patent litigators, because they do not bring in money. This sounds discouraging. Patent prosecutors are often put on to Of Counsel tracks, which may not necessarily be bad for me as long as I can repay my loans and make up some of my 3-year salary hit. I wonder what Of Counsels end up making in 5-7 years.

I guess the best option for me would be to look for a partner-track position at an IP boutique that pays market and that does a lot of patent prosecution, and hence puts patent prosecutors on partner track. I am sure such firms are rare.

Prosecutors aren't necessarily paid less than litigators. Salaries at the same office are the same regardless of field. However, most patent prosecution is done at firms where the overall salaries are often lower than Big Law salaries, but so are the hourly requirements.

[Emu Flu]

I talked to an attorney at my company who said patent prosecutors are a Tier 2 position at law firms and are not on partner track, unlike patent litigators, because they do not bring in money. This sounds discouraging. Patent prosecutors are often put on to Of Counsel tracks, which may not necessarily be bad for me as long as I can repay my loans and make up some of my 3-year salary hit. I wonder what Of Counsels end up making in 5-7 years.

Many Big Law firms don't do much patent prosecution so they're just not in a position to make many new partners in that group, but I've never heard of being put on a separate track. However, lots of patent prosecutors won't even consider going to a large firm because of that (and other factors like personality, work environment, etc.). I suppose you can say that Big Law firms are considered Tier 2 patent prosecution firms (not commenting on their quality). Only 2 or 3 Big Law firms are even in the top 20 of patent prosecution output. They're not very active in the field and it's difficult to maintain associates. At a certain point the billing rate becomes too high to be able to compete with the boutiques.

Patent prosecution at a general practice firm can be extremely stressful. That's why you see a lot of departures when a boutique gets absorbed by a larger firm.

I guess the best option for me would be to look for a partner-track position at an IP boutique that pays market and that does a lot of patent prosecution, and hence puts patent prosecutors on partner track. I am sure such firms are rare.

There are a few, but usually people go to an IP boutique to work fewer hours and thus earn a bit less than $160k.

[jim-green]

Many Big Law firms don't do much patent prosecution so they're just not in a position to make many new partners in that group, but I've never heard of being put on a separate track.

Thanks, this is very useful for me to know.

[jim-green]

I know Rotor is going to punch me just for suggesting this...
I'm pretty much settled on Boalt if I do go to school, but I am writing this just because I also got into GULC at sticker. The deadline for me to deposit at GULC is May 1, so I am writing this just to confirm that there should be no question I should choose Berkeley over GULC. I am 99% sure of this, but I live much closer to DC than to CA, moving to DC and living in DC would be much cheaper, and we have family on the East Coast but not in CA. However, career-wise, from what I have learned on TLS and elsewhere, for me Berkeley should be a no-brainer over GULC. Writing this just to make sure.

[Rotor]

I know Rotor is going to punch me just for suggesting this...
I'm pretty much settled on Boalt if I do go to school, but I am writing this just because I also got into GULC at sticker. The deadline for me to deposit at GULC is May 1, so I am writing this just to confirm that there should be no question I should choose Berkeley over GULC. I am 99% sure of this, but I live much closer to DC than to CA, moving to DC and living in DC would be much cheaper, and we have family on the East Coast but not in CA. However, career-wise, from what I have learned on TLS and elsewhere, for me Berkeley should be a no-brainer over GULC. Writing this just to make sure.

No no no. You are absolutely right that you need to be good with your decision. For me, especially knowing what I know about Boalt from the inside, I don't think it's even a close question. My only advice here would be to not be penny-wise and pound-foolish. In the context of the cost of the investment you are about to make (assuming you do make it), the marginal difference in moving expenses is a small percentage.

[jim-green]

In the context of the cost of the investment you are about to make (assuming you do make it), the marginal difference in moving expenses is a small percentage.

You are right again. I was 99% sure Boalt is the better choice for IP, though DC has many IP firms and the patent office. But I wanted to be 100% sure, and I think you nailed it for me.