Wisconsin vs. Fordham

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thexfactor
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby thexfactor » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:37 pm

btw384 wrote:Given the fact that you type like a 12 year old, I don't doubt that your friends could not find work.

lol resorting to personal attacks now.. eh?

btw384
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby btw384 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:43 pm

thexfactor wrote:lol resorting to personal attacks now.. eh?

dood wrote:yea buddy, u'r an ass clown.

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:26 pm

tww909 wrote:well, neither is the answer really, but if you must go to either then go to fordham. you will have a very hard time leaving wisconsin if you go to law school there.

2011 stats, wisconsin's NLJ250 placement was 31/252. Art. III clerkship placement is between 0 and 1 per year. class of '11 had one (that i know of, there may be as many as 2!).

breaking down that 31 number further, the majority are certainly in wisconsin. the only data i have access to is self reported 2L summer employment data from summer 2010 (when those 18 people summered). the east/west coast biglaw placement looks like this:

DC - 1 - Latham

yes, that's it. nobody from the class of 2011 (reported) summering in new york. or san francisco. or LA. or in any big firm in any states except MN, WI, and IL.

if you were to broaden your search, here is the breakdown of market/firm within NLJ 250 for all (reported) members of the class of 2011.

DC - 1 - Latham
Chicago - 3 - McDermott Will, Sidley, Jones Day
Minneapolis - 2 - Dorsey, RKMC
Madison - 6 - Foley, Godfrey (2), Perkins Coie (3)
Milwaukee - 4 - Godfrey, Reinhart (3)

that's 15 people, so i guess 16 more people ended up in NLJ jobs who didn't report their summer jobs to the school's private spreadsheets or got them through 3LOLCI. 96/252 in the 2011 class reported their outcomes.

the picture isn't all that much better the following year, where the picture looks like this

DC - 1 - Latham
Chicago - 3 - Jones Day, Latham, Sidley
Minneapolis - 5 - Gray Plant, Dorsey, Briggs, Kinney, Oppenheimer (not sure if all these are NLJ)
NYC - 3 - Kaye Scholer, Fried Frank, Cleary
Madison - 4 - Godfrey (3), Perkins Coie
Milwaukee - 7 - Godfrey (4), Reinhart (3)

so that's 23 if i'm adding correctly.

now, go forth, make your decision with some real information. and feel free to PM me if you need anything else.


This is very interesting. Thank you for reporting this.

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dood
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby dood » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:26 pm

btw384 wrote:Given the fact that you type like a 12 year old, I don't doubt that your friends could not find work.


ok. even without pointing out the flaws in ur logic. yes. that is my point...my friends who graduated or are 3Ls are UW madison are jobless as is 50% of their class...thank you for not doubting it.

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tww909
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby tww909 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:20 am

JollyGreenGiant wrote:
tww909 wrote:well, neither is the answer really, but if you must go to either then go to fordham. you will have a very hard time leaving wisconsin if you go to law school there.

2011 stats, wisconsin's NLJ250 placement was 31/252. Art. III clerkship placement is between 0 and 1 per year. class of '11 had one (that i know of, there may be as many as 2!).

breaking down that 31 number further, the majority are certainly in wisconsin. the only data i have access to is self reported 2L summer employment data from summer 2010 (when those 18 people summered). the east/west coast biglaw placement looks like this:

DC - 1 - Latham

yes, that's it. nobody from the class of 2011 (reported) summering in new york. or san francisco. or LA. or in any big firm in any states except MN, WI, and IL.

if you were to broaden your search, here is the breakdown of market/firm within NLJ 250 for all (reported) members of the class of 2011.

DC - 1 - Latham
Chicago - 3 - McDermott Will, Sidley, Jones Day
Minneapolis - 2 - Dorsey, RKMC
Madison - 6 - Foley, Godfrey (2), Perkins Coie (3)
Milwaukee - 4 - Godfrey, Reinhart (3)

that's 15 people, so i guess 16 more people ended up in NLJ jobs who didn't report their summer jobs to the school's private spreadsheets or got them through 3LOLCI. 96/252 in the 2011 class reported their outcomes.

the picture isn't all that much better the following year, where the picture looks like this

DC - 1 - Latham
Chicago - 3 - Jones Day, Latham, Sidley
Minneapolis - 5 - Gray Plant, Dorsey, Briggs, Kinney, Oppenheimer (not sure if all these are NLJ)
NYC - 3 - Kaye Scholer, Fried Frank, Cleary
Madison - 4 - Godfrey (3), Perkins Coie
Milwaukee - 7 - Godfrey (4), Reinhart (3)

so that's 23 if i'm adding correctly.

now, go forth, make your decision with some real information. and feel free to PM me if you need anything else.


This is very interesting. Thank you for reporting this.


happy to report. UW is absurdly opaque when it comes to any actual placements and frankly there should be some way to disclose all the similar data for all other schools, because this is the kind of shit i wish i knew before i went to UW.

it worked out alright for me, so no bitterness, but people deserve to know they're getting into before they take the same absurd risk i did.

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20160810
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby 20160810 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:24 am

romothesavior wrote:
thexfactor wrote:No i don't. I think you overestimate wisc's placement. 3 people going to NYC doesn't prove anything. They are all prob on LR top 5%.
Check Wisconsin's Nlj250 stat of 7% and tell me I am underestimating your school's placement.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

You're not wrong. Going to Wisconsin with the primary goal of a coast (especially if you are a WI native) is just not smart. It will take top 5-10% grades to have a realistic shot. Still, I think this is going to be a long, annoying year of telling people not to cite the most recent NLJ 250 data as somehow being indicative of the current market. Things are still bad, but better than what that list indicates, and it doesn't give an accurate picture of what my class just went through (or what the 1Ls and 0Ls will likely go through).

Also NLJ250 is heaving NYC-skewed. A lot of firms that are considered good firms in places like Wisconsin aren't going to be listed on there, but it's entirely plausible a top Wisconsin student who wanted to stay local would pick one such firm over an NLJ250 option. NLJ250 data is a good proxy for "how many get biglaw" and at Fordham it probably tells the tale pretty well, but at schools in places like Wisconsin it's a bad indicator.

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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby wisc14 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:51 am

The person who said you can go to NYC from Madison is on crack....Hell, even trying to get to Chicago will take some work.

Less than 10% of Wisconsin grades go to BigLaw. Thus, roughly 25 students a year. How many NYC firms recruited 1L's? ZERO. Actually, how many BigLaw firms came on campus to recruit 1L's? Oh, one. Maybe five if you count the employers from Minneapolis who came for "informational interviews." Informational interviews, 'i.e.,' we aint hiring.

I would retake. NYC is expensive without scholarship and if you go to Wisconsin, you'll only make it to NYC if you pay $350 to go there for spring break.

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tww909
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby tww909 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:57 am

SBL wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
thexfactor wrote:No i don't. I think you overestimate wisc's placement. 3 people going to NYC doesn't prove anything. They are all prob on LR top 5%.
Check Wisconsin's Nlj250 stat of 7% and tell me I am underestimating your school's placement.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

You're not wrong. Going to Wisconsin with the primary goal of a coast (especially if you are a WI native) is just not smart. It will take top 5-10% grades to have a realistic shot. Still, I think this is going to be a long, annoying year of telling people not to cite the most recent NLJ 250 data as somehow being indicative of the current market. Things are still bad, but better than what that list indicates, and it doesn't give an accurate picture of what my class just went through (or what the 1Ls and 0Ls will likely go through).

Also NLJ250 is heaving NYC-skewed. A lot of firms that are considered good firms in places like Wisconsin aren't going to be listed on there, but it's entirely plausible a top Wisconsin student who wanted to stay local would pick one such firm over an NLJ250 option. NLJ250 data is a good proxy for "how many get biglaw" and at Fordham it probably tells the tale pretty well, but at schools in places like Wisconsin it's a bad indicator.


i disagree with this. people can correct me on this (admittedly) all anecdotal post, but i can think of only 1 wisconsin firm that pays market or near market (whyte hirschbock) that is not NLJ. maybe von briesen also pays market, but they don't post salary on NALP.

as far as the bigger-ish firms in wisconsin go i can attest for the salary of one 20ish attorney green bay firm which pays a little above 1k/week for summers, and a ~70 attorney firm with a couple locations around wisconsin that pays 1k/wk exactly for summers. maybe those are "good firms" in your post, but no top UW student who wants to stay local is going to go there if they have the option to have twice the pay for more prestige, more security in getting a full time offer, and the same hours.

wisc14
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby wisc14 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:01 am

the biglaw firms in wisconsin - madison/milwaukee pay $2,100 a week. Oh. The Wisconsin firms aren't even hiring either.

Minneapolis also recruits. But NYC? BLALALAHALAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby billharford » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:16 pm

So leaving the Midwest after going to WI Law is very unlikely even if graduating at the top of the class.

How about we shift the conversation to Fordham at near sticker. It has about 20%-25% placement in biglaw NYC, but seems like just about everyone says it's financial suicide and should not be done. Is this the consensus for people reading this thread? Would $250K in debt be payable with biglaw salary and NYC COL?

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dingbat
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby dingbat » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:16 pm

billharford wrote:So leaving the Midwest after going to WI Law is very unlikely even if graduating at the top of the class.

How about we shift the conversation to Fordham at near sticker. It has about 20%-25% placement in biglaw NYC, but seems like just about everyone says it's financial suicide and should not be done. Is this the consensus for people reading this thread? Would $250K in debt be payable with biglaw salary and NYC COL?

It is payable.
The issue is that you'be got to be top 1/3rd to have a good shot at biglaw.
But, most people on this board don't look beyond NLJ250 data.
Fordham also places well in NY midlaw, which pays close to scale.
As long as you're top half of your class, you should be able to land a job that can afford to pay back your loans, and even a bit lower down you could make six figures your first year (obviously it's a bit tougher living in NY, making "only" six figures and having $250k debt)
The real problem is that if you're at the bottom of your class and can't find a job, or choose a career that doesnt pay well (although IBR might minimize that) then you've got a boatload of debt you will be struggling with.
It's not as doom and gloom as this board suggests, but it is a risky proposition.
If you got accepted, Fordham provides very detailed employment data on the admitted student part of the website. Read it, analyze it, and make a decision

rad lulz
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby rad lulz » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:28 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thexfactor
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby thexfactor » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:04 am

dingbat wrote:
billharford wrote:So leaving the Midwest after going to WI Law is very unlikely even if graduating at the top of the class.

How about we shift the conversation to Fordham at near sticker. It has about 20%-25% placement in biglaw NYC, but seems like just about everyone says it's financial suicide and should not be done. Is this the consensus for people reading this thread? Would $250K in debt be payable with biglaw salary and NYC COL?

It is payable.
The issue is that you'be got to be top 1/3rd to have a good shot at biglaw.
But, most people on this board don't look beyond NLJ250 data.
Fordham also places well in NY midlaw, which pays close to scale.
As long as you're top half of your class, you should be able to land a job that can afford to pay back your loans, and even a bit lower down you could make six figures your first year (obviously it's a bit tougher living in NY, making "only" six figures and having $250k debt)
The real problem is that if you're at the bottom of your class and can't find a job, or choose a career that doesnt pay well (although IBR might minimize that) then you've got a boatload of debt you will be struggling with.
It's not as doom and gloom as this board suggests, but it is a risky proposition.
If you got accepted, Fordham provides very detailed employment data on the admitted student part of the website. Read it, analyze it, and make a decision



Top 1/3 will only give you a small hope of biglaw.

Also there aren't as many firms that pay market or close to market salaries outside the NLJ250. At least in the Detroit metro market, there are 4 NLJ250 firms and 7-10 firms or so that pay somewhere close to market. The problem is that the 5-7 firms only take 1-2 SA. In other words, their hiring is very unpredictable. The nlj250 firms are more willing to hire 4-5 individuals every year.

I doubt the Milwaukee market is as big as the Detroit market....

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tww909
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby tww909 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:16 am

thexfactor wrote:
dingbat wrote:
billharford wrote:So leaving the Midwest after going to WI Law is very unlikely even if graduating at the top of the class.

How about we shift the conversation to Fordham at near sticker. It has about 20%-25% placement in biglaw NYC, but seems like just about everyone says it's financial suicide and should not be done. Is this the consensus for people reading this thread? Would $250K in debt be payable with biglaw salary and NYC COL?

It is payable.
The issue is that you'be got to be top 1/3rd to have a good shot at biglaw.
But, most people on this board don't look beyond NLJ250 data.
Fordham also places well in NY midlaw, which pays close to scale.
As long as you're top half of your class, you should be able to land a job that can afford to pay back your loans, and even a bit lower down you could make six figures your first year (obviously it's a bit tougher living in NY, making "only" six figures and having $250k debt)
The real problem is that if you're at the bottom of your class and can't find a job, or choose a career that doesnt pay well (although IBR might minimize that) then you've got a boatload of debt you will be struggling with.
It's not as doom and gloom as this board suggests, but it is a risky proposition.
If you got accepted, Fordham provides very detailed employment data on the admitted student part of the website. Read it, analyze it, and make a decision



Top 1/3 will only give you a small hope of biglaw.

Also there aren't as many firms that pay market or close to market salaries outside the NLJ250. At least in the Detroit metro market, there are 4 NLJ250 firms and 7-10 firms or so that pay somewhere close to market. The problem is that the 5-7 firms only take 1-2 SA. In other words, their hiring is very unpredictable. The nlj250 firms are more willing to hire 4-5 individuals every year.

I doubt the Milwaukee market is as big as the Detroit market....


Milwaukee/Madison NLJ Firms and 2011 class size

Foley & Lardner - 8 Milwaukee, 1 Madison
Quarles & Brady - 4 Milwaukee, 0 Madison
Godfrey & Kahn - 10 Milwaukee, 3 Madison
Michael Best & Friedrich - 2 Milwaukee, 0 Madison
Reinhart, Boerner & Van Deuren (Milwaukee only) - 9 Milwaukee
Perkins Coie (Madison only) - 2 Madison

Milwaukee/Madison market or near market paying firms and 2011 class size

Whyte Hirschbock & Dudek - 5 Milwaukee, 1 Madison
Von Briesen & Roper - 2 Milwaukee, 0 Madison

i don't understand why people in this thread act like there aren't data available.

MrAnon
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby MrAnon » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:56 pm

15% of Fordham's class is employed by the school 9 months after graduation. That's roughly 1 out of every 7 students.

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dingbat
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby dingbat » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:02 pm

MrAnon wrote:15% of Fordham's class is employed by the school 9 months after graduation. That's roughly 1 out of every 7 students.

Where on earth did you pull that statistic from?
Its completely fictional

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tww909
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby tww909 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:46 pm

dingbat wrote:
MrAnon wrote:15% of Fordham's class is employed by the school 9 months after graduation. That's roughly 1 out of every 7 students.

Where on earth did you pull that statistic from?
Its completely fictional


i believe this is from http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

paul campos wrote:Number of 2010 Fordham law school graduates employed by the law school nine months after graduation:

70

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dingbat
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby dingbat » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:49 pm

tww909 wrote:
dingbat wrote:
MrAnon wrote:15% of Fordham's class is employed by the school 9 months after graduation. That's roughly 1 out of every 7 students.

Where on earth did you pull that statistic from?
Its completely fictional


i believe this is from http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

paul campos wrote:Number of 2010 Fordham law school graduates employed by the law school nine months after graduation:

70

I must apologize, I misread the quote.
The number is accurate and disclosed by the school on their employment data
Last edited by dingbat on Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Panther7
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby Panther7 » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:06 am

dood wrote:
Panther7 wrote:yea buddy, u'r an ass clown. i have 3 WI law friends who graduated either last year or is a 3L now.
one is tending bar at the KK
one is driving a madison eco-cab (apparently a prius)
the "lucky one" is doing shit law DUI defense (what u call "crim positions") for $18/hr


Clearly you, with your 3 law friends, knows more than I about what people are getting right now for summers. I mean, these friends I have MUST be made up.

Wisconsin Law degree WILL allow you to go to the coasts. However, if you are set on coast biglaw or bust, UW is probably not the best choice for you. But you definitely CAN go from UW to coast big law if you have good grades and a desire to do so.

wisc14
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby wisc14 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:30 pm

Panther7 wrote:
dood wrote:
Panther7 wrote:yea buddy, u'r an ass clown. i have 3 WI law friends who graduated either last year or is a 3L now.
one is tending bar at the KK
one is driving a madison eco-cab (apparently a prius)
the "lucky one" is doing shit law DUI defense (what u call "crim positions") for $18/hr


Clearly you, with your 3 law friends, knows more than I about what people are getting right now for summers. I mean, these friends I have MUST be made up.

Wisconsin Law degree WILL allow you to go to the coasts. However, if you are set on coast biglaw or bust, UW is probably not the best choice for you. But you definitely CAN go from UW to coast big law if you have good grades and a desire to do so.


If you have "good grades" (whatever that means) and desire to go to the coast, you can get big law from any law school. However, the coast firms don't recruit at UW and less than 10% of the students get Big Law. Thus, you should stop throwing out lies. A UW student getting big law in NYC is almost slim-to-none. OP would have a better chance getting a full-ride at Rutgers or Cordozo.

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dingbat
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby dingbat » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:26 pm

wisc14 wrote:If you have "good grades" (whatever that means) and desire to go to the coast, you can get big law from any law school. However, the coast firms don't recruit at UW and less than 10% of the students get Big Law. Thus, you should stop throwing out lies. A UW student getting big law in NYC is almost slim-to-none. OP would have a better chance getting a full-ride at Rutgers or Cordozo.

if you got a full ride from 'Bozo, you should seriously consider it, for about 10 seconds (when you realize that Fordham doubles your odds of getting Biglaw and that clown college is no better than your local state school and your cost of living could be higher than in-state tuition)

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romothesavior
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:36 pm

dingbat wrote:
wisc14 wrote:If you have "good grades" (whatever that means) and desire to go to the coast, you can get big law from any law school. However, the coast firms don't recruit at UW and less than 10% of the students get Big Law. Thus, you should stop throwing out lies. A UW student getting big law in NYC is almost slim-to-none. OP would have a better chance getting a full-ride at Rutgers or Cordozo.

if you got a full ride from 'Bozo, you should seriously consider it, for about 10 seconds (when you realize that Fordham doubles your odds of getting Biglaw and that clown college is no better than your local state school and your cost of living could be higher than in-state tuition)

I know you love Fordham, but 150k (difference between Fordham and Dozo) is no small amount of money, and we're not talking about a school that places 50%+ into biglaw. Fordham is solid, but not worth 200k.

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dingbat
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Re: Wisconsin vs. Fordham

Postby dingbat » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:14 pm

romothesavior wrote:
dingbat wrote:
wisc14 wrote:If you have "good grades" (whatever that means) and desire to go to the coast, you can get big law from any law school. However, the coast firms don't recruit at UW and less than 10% of the students get Big Law. Thus, you should stop throwing out lies. A UW student getting big law in NYC is almost slim-to-none. OP would have a better chance getting a full-ride at Rutgers or Cordozo.

if you got a full ride from 'Bozo, you should seriously consider it, for about 10 seconds (when you realize that Fordham doubles your odds of getting Biglaw and that clown college is no better than your local state school and your cost of living could be higher than in-state tuition)

I know you love Fordham, but 150k (difference between Fordham and Dozo) is no small amount of money, and we're not talking about a school that places 50%+ into biglaw. Fordham is solid, but not worth 200k.

I agree (to some extent) but was trying to comment on the suggestion that OP try for a full ride at Dozo. Either take a big risk and go to Fordham, or be conservative (smart) and go to state school. Even with a full ride, Dozo is $60-$70k, and the chances of getting biglaw are not that much better than any other non-TTT (top 15% vs to 10%).
While I would say that a full ride to Dozo is better than Fordham at sticker, I don't believe in doing things half-assed




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