General Consensus U Washington

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Teflon_Don
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General Consensus U Washington

Postby Teflon_Don » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:05 pm

So what's the general consensus on the University of Washington Law School?

Thanks!

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No13baby
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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby No13baby » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:23 pm

If you're from Washington, want to work in Washington after you graduate, and don't care about Biglaw, UW is great.

Otherwise, not so much.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby tennisking88 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:30 pm

No13baby wrote:If you're from Washington, want to work in Washington after you graduate, and don't care about Biglaw, UW is great.

Otherwise, not so much.


You CAN get biglaw from UW, it will just have to be in Seattle, and probs top 10-15% of your class. But if you're set on Seattle, there is no better place IMO (other than top 10 perhaps).

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Bronck
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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Bronck » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:50 pm

tennisking88 wrote:
No13baby wrote:If you're from Washington, want to work in Washington after you graduate, and don't care about Biglaw, UW is great.

Otherwise, not so much.


You CAN get biglaw from UW, it will just have to be in Seattle, and probs top 10-15% of your class. But if you're set on Seattle, there is no better place IMO (other than top 10 perhaps).


He never said you can't get biglaw. The chances are overwhelming that you won't, however. You can never go in assuming you will be in the top 10%.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Boggs » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:47 pm

Teflon_Don wrote:So what's the general consensus on the University of Washington Law School?

Thanks!


UW is an excellent law school. They dominate the PNW and compete with T14s for Biglaw in the region.

If you know you want to stay in Seattle, you should feel comfortable going to UW over a T14. However, you will be limited when it comes to degree portability. Any difficulty UW grads have when it comes to getting Biglaw comes from two things: 1) lack of portability (they may have trouble getting Biglaw jobs in non-Seattle markets) and 2) the Seattle Biglaw market is pretty small.

I think the most prudent answer is: "It depends on what you want." So, care to tell us a little more about what you're looking for?

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby 20160810 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:07 am

Boggs wrote:
Teflon_Don wrote:So what's the general consensus on the University of Washington Law School?

Thanks!


UW is an excellent law school. They dominate the PNW and compete with T14s for Biglaw in the region.

If you know you want to stay in Seattle, you should feel comfortable going to UW over a T14. However, you will be limited when it comes to degree portability. Any difficulty UW grads have when it comes to getting Biglaw comes from two things: 1) lack of portability (they may have trouble getting Biglaw jobs in non-Seattle markets) and 2) the Seattle Biglaw market is pretty small.

I think the most prudent answer is: "It depends on what you want." So, care to tell us a little more about what you're looking for?

The ONLY way it makes sense to go to UW over a T14 is if you know 100% you want to work in Seattle but have no ties. Even then, it's probably a stupid choice, because how would you know 100% you want to work in a place where you've never lived?

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Boggs » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:36 am

SBL wrote:
Boggs wrote:
Teflon_Don wrote:So what's the general consensus on the University of Washington Law School?

Thanks!


UW is an excellent law school. They dominate the PNW and compete with T14s for Biglaw in the region.

If you know you want to stay in Seattle, you should feel comfortable going to UW over a T14. However, you will be limited when it comes to degree portability. Any difficulty UW grads have when it comes to getting Biglaw comes from two things: 1) lack of portability (they may have trouble getting Biglaw jobs in non-Seattle markets) and 2) the Seattle Biglaw market is pretty small.

I think the most prudent answer is: "It depends on what you want." So, care to tell us a little more about what you're looking for?

The ONLY way it makes sense to go to UW over a T14 is if you know 100% you want to work in Seattle but have no ties. Even then, it's probably a stupid choice, because how would you know 100% you want to work in a place where you've never lived?


As I said already, you should feel comfortable going to UW over a T14 if you know you want to stay in Seattle. I'd dispense with the "have no ties" condition though. Whether you have ties or not, UW is a fine choice.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby 20160810 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:54 am

Boggs wrote:
SBL wrote:
Boggs wrote:
Teflon_Don wrote:So what's the general consensus on the University of Washington Law School?

Thanks!


UW is an excellent law school. They dominate the PNW and compete with T14s for Biglaw in the region.

If you know you want to stay in Seattle, you should feel comfortable going to UW over a T14. However, you will be limited when it comes to degree portability. Any difficulty UW grads have when it comes to getting Biglaw comes from two things: 1) lack of portability (they may have trouble getting Biglaw jobs in non-Seattle markets) and 2) the Seattle Biglaw market is pretty small.

I think the most prudent answer is: "It depends on what you want." So, care to tell us a little more about what you're looking for?

The ONLY way it makes sense to go to UW over a T14 is if you know 100% you want to work in Seattle but have no ties. Even then, it's probably a stupid choice, because how would you know 100% you want to work in a place where you've never lived?


As I said already, you should feel comfortable going to UW over a T14 if you know you want to stay in Seattle. I'd dispense with the "have no ties" condition though. Whether you have ties or not, UW is a fine choice.

This is patently untrue. Ties to a small market like Seattle matter a lot.

If you have ties, you can (and should) go to a T14 school and then rely on your ties to get you interviews in Seattle.

If you don't have ties, your only hope of finding a jerb in Seattle is to go to UW.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Boggs » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:09 am

SBL wrote:This is patently untrue. Ties to a small market like Seattle matter a lot.

If you have ties, you can (and should) go to a T14 school and then rely on your ties to get you interviews in Seattle.

If you don't have ties, your only hope of finding a jerb in Seattle is to go to UW.


SBL, you're having trouble understanding what I'm saying. You suggested that OP shouldn't go to UW if OP has ties. I disagree. There are situations were OP would be perfectly justified going to UW over a T14 even if OP has ties.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Seneca » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:17 am

Boggs wrote:
SBL wrote:This is patently untrue. Ties to a small market like Seattle matter a lot.

If you have ties, you can (and should) go to a T14 school and then rely on your ties to get you interviews in Seattle.

If you don't have ties, your only hope of finding a jerb in Seattle is to go to UW.


SBL, you're having trouble understanding what I'm saying. You suggested that OP shouldn't go to UW if OP has ties. I disagree. There are situations were OP would be perfectly justified going to UW over a T14 even if OP has ties.


SBL had it right. There are no situations in which OP would be "perfectly justified" going to UW over a T14, ties or no ties.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby 20160810 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:26 am

Seneca wrote:
Boggs wrote:
SBL wrote:This is patently untrue. Ties to a small market like Seattle matter a lot.

If you have ties, you can (and should) go to a T14 school and then rely on your ties to get you interviews in Seattle.

If you don't have ties, your only hope of finding a jerb in Seattle is to go to UW.


SBL, you're having trouble understanding what I'm saying. You suggested that OP shouldn't go to UW if OP has ties. I disagree. There are situations were OP would be perfectly justified going to UW over a T14 even if OP has ties.


SBL had it right. There are no situations in which OP would be "perfectly justified" going to UW over a T14, ties or no ties.

Exception: Full ride.

Otherwise, T14.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Boggs » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:31 am

Seneca wrote:
Boggs wrote:
SBL wrote:This is patently untrue. Ties to a small market like Seattle matter a lot.

If you have ties, you can (and should) go to a T14 school and then rely on your ties to get you interviews in Seattle.

If you don't have ties, your only hope of finding a jerb in Seattle is to go to UW.


SBL, you're having trouble understanding what I'm saying. You suggested that OP shouldn't go to UW if OP has ties. I disagree. There are situations were OP would be perfectly justified going to UW over a T14 even if OP has ties.


SBL had it right. There are no situations in which OP would be "perfectly justified" going to UW over a T14, ties or no ties.


Significant $$$ from UW vs. T14 @ sticker + Seattle or bust attitude = perfectly justified in picking UW over a T14. Now, that's an easy case, but I think even in less compelling fact situations OP would be justified in taking UW.

However, all of this is hypothetical until we know what OP is after.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Boggs » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:32 am

SBL wrote:
Seneca wrote:
Boggs wrote:
SBL wrote:This is patently untrue. Ties to a small market like Seattle matter a lot.

If you have ties, you can (and should) go to a T14 school and then rely on your ties to get you interviews in Seattle.

If you don't have ties, your only hope of finding a jerb in Seattle is to go to UW.


SBL, you're having trouble understanding what I'm saying. You suggested that OP shouldn't go to UW if OP has ties. I disagree. There are situations were OP would be perfectly justified going to UW over a T14 even if OP has ties.


SBL had it right. There are no situations in which OP would be "perfectly justified" going to UW over a T14, ties or no ties.

Exception: Full ride.

Otherwise, T14.


UW doesn't really do full rides (other than a public interest thing), but in-state tuition + scholarship is a pretty good deal.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby 20160810 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:46 am

Isn't there a Gates Fellowship that is full ride + books + rent stipend? If I wanted to work in the PNW, I'd take that over pretty much anything except maybe HYS. Short of something like that though it's hard to justify UW over a T14.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Boggs » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:52 am

SBL wrote:Isn't there a Gates Fellowship that is full ride + books + rent stipend? If I wanted to work in the PNW, I'd take that over pretty much anything except maybe HYS. Short of something like that though it's hard to justify UW over a T14.


Yes, the Gates Fellowship is what I referred to as "a public interest thing." I forgot the name.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:54 am

People keep saying "PNW" like UW places all over, but its dominance is limited geographically. Portland is firmly dominated by the 3 Oregon schools, with UW coming in a distant 4th (roughly 5% of Portland biglaw associate hires in the past decade or so).

An approximate record of Portland NALP hires since roughly 2000: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VkE#gid=0

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Boggs » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:59 am

rinkrat19 wrote:People keep saying "PNW" like UW places all over, but its dominance is limited geographically. Portland is firmly dominated by the 3 Oregon schools, with UW coming in a distant 4th (roughly 5% of Portland biglaw associate hires in the past decade or so).

An approximate record of Portland NALP hires since roughly 2000: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VkE#gid=0


Self-selection.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Seneca » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:14 am

rinkrat19 wrote:People keep saying "PNW" like UW places all over, but its dominance is limited geographically. Portland is firmly dominated by the 3 Oregon schools, with UW coming in a distant 4th (roughly 5% of Portland biglaw associate hires in the past decade or so).

An approximate record of Portland NALP hires since roughly 2000: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VkE#gid=0


This is crucial. Even with $$$, the small size of the Seattle market and the relative lack of degree portability from UW should be a huge concern, especially for anyone hoping for biglaw. If you bet on UW for biglaw and then crap out in Seattle, you've pretty much crapped out completely, and you're stuck in an over-saturated, highly insular market, with more of the same in every other market in the region.

Boggs wrote: Self-selection.


No, there are just - in keeping with the national trend - far too many law students graduating from respective regional schools in Portland and Seattle than there are jobs. Add to that T14 grads with ties, the competition is even fiercer. I'll agree there's some self-selection in that those with Oregon ties go to Oregon schools and apply for jobs in Portland while Seattleites do the same, but the fact remains that it is extremely unwise to attend UW thinking that Portland will be your back-up if the Seattle market doesn't pan out, and the reverse is true for schools in Oregon.

For the record, Boggs, I'm not saying that UW is necessarily a bad legal education, I'm just saying that the job market in the region is such that I wouldn't generally recommend it.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby 20160810 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:39 am

The importance of market size cannot be overstated here. NYC and DC firms hire about a billion summer associates every year. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there were like 30 summer associates hired every year by Seattle firms. So going to law school thinking you're dead-set on a small market like Seattle is incredibly dangerous, because you very well might find that even with the right school AND the right grades AND the right ties AND decent interview skills, you got no firm offer or a TTT firm offer simply because you just weren't lucky. When you have that few spots to compete over, then the inevitable stuff that happens (a few spots here and there going to sons/daughters of partners or some kid from YLS, or a disabled military vet with awesome interview skills or whatever) from time to time matters more.

All of this is fine if you went to, say, Berkeley, because you have a bitchin T14 degree and you can always work in SF or NYC and try your hand at laterally transferring to a firm in Seattle later on. But if you picked UW over a T14 because you were just dead-set on Seattle, you might get the grades for biglaw (note that, as has been mentioned, there's only a 10-15% chance this'll happen) and STILL be screwed just because there are so few SA jobs in that city.

TLDR: Seriously, unless it's a full ride, go to a T14, pretty much no matter what.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Boggs » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:42 am

Seneca wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:People keep saying "PNW" like UW places all over, but its dominance is limited geographically. Portland is firmly dominated by the 3 Oregon schools, with UW coming in a distant 4th (roughly 5% of Portland biglaw associate hires in the past decade or so).

An approximate record of Portland NALP hires since roughly 2000: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VkE#gid=0


This is crucial. Even with $$$, the small size of the Seattle market and the relative lack of degree portability from UW should be a huge concern, especially for anyone hoping for biglaw. If you bet on UW for biglaw and then crap out in Seattle, you've pretty much crapped out completely, and you're stuck in an over-saturated, highly insular market, with more of the same in every other market in the region.


My position is simply if OP is Seattle or bust, UW is comparable to a T14. If OP is Biglaw or bust, OP should not attend UW over a T14.

Seneca wrote:
Boggs wrote: Self-selection.


No, there are just - in keeping with the national trend - far too many law students graduating from respective regional schools in Portland and Seattle than there are jobs. Add to that T14 grads with ties, the competition is even fiercer. I'll agree there's some self-selection in that those with Oregon ties go to Oregon schools and apply for jobs in Portland while Seattleites do the same, but the fact remains that it is extremely unwise to attend UW thinking that Portland will be your back-up if the Seattle market doesn't pan out, and the reverse is true for schools in Oregon.


I don't think the low occurrence of UW hires in Portland has anything to do with over saturation of the market (but I do think total employed % does). I think it has to do with self-selection. UW is a better school than the Oregon schools, but I doubt UW grads really see Portland as a back-up (and I'd agree they shouldn't).

Seneca wrote:For the record, Boggs, I'm not saying that UW is necessarily a bad legal education, I'm just saying that the job market in the region is such that I wouldn't generally recommend it.


I understand what you're saying. But I don't think I'd conflate the Seattle Biglaw market with the Seattle legal market. Seattle Biglaw is pretty small. Other legal jobs are not as hard to come by.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Boggs » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:49 am

SBL wrote:The importance of market size cannot be overstated here. NYC and DC firms hire about a billion summer associates every year. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there were like 30 summer associates hired every year by Seattle firms. So going to law school thinking you're dead-set on a small market like Seattle is incredibly dangerous, because you very well might find that even with the right school AND the right grades AND the right ties AND decent interview skills, you got no firm offer or a TTT firm offer simply because you just weren't lucky. When you have that few spots to compete over, then the inevitable stuff that happens (a few spots here and there going to sons/daughters of partners or some kid from YLS, or a disabled military vet with awesome interview skills or whatever) from time to time matters more.

All of this is fine if you went to, say, Berkeley, because you have a bitchin T14 degree and you can always work in SF or NYC and try your hand at laterally transferring to a firm in Seattle later on. But if you picked UW over a T14 because you were just dead-set on Seattle, you might get the grades for biglaw (note that, as has been mentioned, there's only a 10-15% chance this'll happen) and STILL be screwed just because there are so few SA jobs in that city.

TLDR: Seriously, unless it's a full ride, go to a T14, pretty much no matter what.


I think we agree if this is a Biglaw or bust situation. If it's not, then I think UW can compete with T14s. I'd also argue that UW can compete with T14s for Biglaw in Seattle, but it's a closer call and since the market is so small I'd suggest taking the T14 in that case.

That said, I'm afraid we've turned this thread into a UW vs. T14, which may not be OP's situation.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby 20160810 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:29 am

Boggs wrote:
SBL wrote:The importance of market size cannot be overstated here. NYC and DC firms hire about a billion summer associates every year. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there were like 30 summer associates hired every year by Seattle firms. So going to law school thinking you're dead-set on a small market like Seattle is incredibly dangerous, because you very well might find that even with the right school AND the right grades AND the right ties AND decent interview skills, you got no firm offer or a TTT firm offer simply because you just weren't lucky. When you have that few spots to compete over, then the inevitable stuff that happens (a few spots here and there going to sons/daughters of partners or some kid from YLS, or a disabled military vet with awesome interview skills or whatever) from time to time matters more.

All of this is fine if you went to, say, Berkeley, because you have a bitchin T14 degree and you can always work in SF or NYC and try your hand at laterally transferring to a firm in Seattle later on. But if you picked UW over a T14 because you were just dead-set on Seattle, you might get the grades for biglaw (note that, as has been mentioned, there's only a 10-15% chance this'll happen) and STILL be screwed just because there are so few SA jobs in that city.

TLDR: Seriously, unless it's a full ride, go to a T14, pretty much no matter what.


I think we agree if this is a Biglaw or bust situation. If it's not, then I think UW can compete with T14s. I'd also argue that UW can compete with T14s for Biglaw in Seattle, but it's a closer call and since the market is so small I'd suggest taking the T14 in that case.

That said, I'm afraid we've turned this thread into a UW vs. T14, which may not be OP's situation.

One more point and then I'll stop digressing: I think we actually agree in a sense, but it's a function of the small market size: UW is comparable to T14 for biglaw in Seattle in the sense that, say, of the 30 summers hired by Seattle firms in a given year, maybe 15 of them are from UW and 15 are T14 students with Seattle ties (obviously this isn't exactly how it breaks down - there are probably a small handful of the tippy-top students from SU and Gonzaga, maybe one of the top students from Oregon - but it's probably a decent approximation). But those UW students all had amazing grades, whereas the T14 students might be below median.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby Boggs » Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:14 am

SBL wrote:
Boggs wrote:
SBL wrote:The importance of market size cannot be overstated here. NYC and DC firms hire about a billion summer associates every year. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if there were like 30 summer associates hired every year by Seattle firms. So going to law school thinking you're dead-set on a small market like Seattle is incredibly dangerous, because you very well might find that even with the right school AND the right grades AND the right ties AND decent interview skills, you got no firm offer or a TTT firm offer simply because you just weren't lucky. When you have that few spots to compete over, then the inevitable stuff that happens (a few spots here and there going to sons/daughters of partners or some kid from YLS, or a disabled military vet with awesome interview skills or whatever) from time to time matters more.

All of this is fine if you went to, say, Berkeley, because you have a bitchin T14 degree and you can always work in SF or NYC and try your hand at laterally transferring to a firm in Seattle later on. But if you picked UW over a T14 because you were just dead-set on Seattle, you might get the grades for biglaw (note that, as has been mentioned, there's only a 10-15% chance this'll happen) and STILL be screwed just because there are so few SA jobs in that city.

TLDR: Seriously, unless it's a full ride, go to a T14, pretty much no matter what.


I think we agree if this is a Biglaw or bust situation. If it's not, then I think UW can compete with T14s. I'd also argue that UW can compete with T14s for Biglaw in Seattle, but it's a closer call and since the market is so small I'd suggest taking the T14 in that case.

That said, I'm afraid we've turned this thread into a UW vs. T14, which may not be OP's situation.

One more point and then I'll stop digressing: I think we actually agree in a sense, but it's a function of the small market size: UW is comparable to T14 for biglaw in Seattle in the sense that, say, of the 30 summers hired by Seattle firms in a given year, maybe 15 of them are from UW and 15 are T14 students with Seattle ties (obviously this isn't exactly how it breaks down - there are probably a small handful of the tippy-top students from SU and Gonzaga, maybe one of the top students from Oregon - but it's probably a decent approximation). But those UW students all had amazing grades, whereas the T14 students might be below median.


I'm not sure we have enough information to make this statement. I only know a few 2Ls summering in Seattle as SAs and they all happen to be top 10% at Boalt. I don't know any UW students, so I don't know what kind of grades they need for biglaw SAs. I'm not convinced though that a T14 student below median could waltz into Seattle and be able to pick up an SA position.

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Re: General Consensus U Washington

Postby baseballfan » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:48 pm

This thread looks like several statements without much information to back them up. On what basis are you making your claims, SBL and Seneca?

Not being negative, just want to get the facts straight.

Thanks!




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