Penn vs. NYU Forum

[chuckbass]

ljl at this debate

[Ron Howard]

Who knows? But at the firm I started at, all 3 Penn people in my class year are gone. At least 2 NYU people from my class are still at the firm. That type of thing is an example of how the stats could be skewed.

And, in any case, you neglected the point about laterals.

That is just an anecdote and it neglected my insinuation (for the purposes of discussion only, of course) that Penn people can't handle working in the elite firms like NYU people can. You also failed to include how many people from each school started there. Because, if Penn people are leaving in greater numbers, there must be a reason. What could explain the systematic difference?

As for laterals, there would have to be an explanation too. If NYU students are moving to these firms in greater numbers, then what is the reason? What can explain this behavior or difference is opportunity? Could it again be that Penn students are less abled than NYU students? Differences must have causes, and self selection prior to matriculation seems unlikely here.

[grizzlybear]

thought this might be interesting. looking at Summer 2014 and 15 based on the data reported here on tls on firms that are almost all ny centric 'elite' firms as defined by vault http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=239113(to give a sense of current placement ability rather than historically (as penn has presumably grown in placement over the past 10 odd years)


2015-

cls nyu penn
wachtell 5 2 2
cravath 18 12 3
skadden 21 16 2
sullcrom 10 10 5
dpw 22 13 7

v5 subtotal 76 53 19


deb 17 8 2
pw 17 25 8
stb 10 10 9
ke 6 9 2

total 126 105 40

class size info from LST and transfer guestimate from this post http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 27&t=82937
penn c/o 2016 size = 251 +25? transfers = 276
nyu c/o 2016 size = 437 + 47? transfers = 484 or 1.75x penn
columbia c/o 2016 size = 352 +52? transfers = 402 or 1.46x penn

assuming equal desire for elite nyc biglaw between these schools (unlikely given penn's 45ish percent placement versus cls/nyu at ~70), SAs at top firms adjusting for class size--

Penn 40/276 = 14.5%
NYU 105/477 = 21.7%
Columbia 126/402 = 31.3%

Again, speaking to NYU and Penn specifically there is a 45 v 70 situation wrt to ny placement but im not sure what the best way to factor that in is

summer 2014 -

cls nyu penn

sullcrom 17 12 4
dpw 23 18 9
cravath 17 8 1

pw 11 10 5
cleary 15 12 4
deb 9 9 5
weil 10 3 4

totals 102 72 32

class of 2015 sizes
penn = 243+25? = 278
nyu = 451+40? = 491
cls = 366+52? = 418

penn 32/278 = 11.5%
nyu 32/491 = 14.7%
cls = 102/418 = 24.4%

important things to remember when looking at this data -
kinda bullshitted transfer numbers but probably wouldnt change the data much +/- 5
oci/eiw/eip participation
45 v 70 geographic placement
nyu preference for PI
complete lack of DC firms (and other markets but DC is an acknowledged difficult market where these schools have solid placement from 9-12 ish percent i think, with P a bit higher), boutiques, and even the proper v10 or 15 or whatever mostly arbitrary distinction youd prefer
also maybe those TLSers are just pathologically lying

let me know if i messed anything up / egregious problems with methodology that go totally unacknowledged

eta: all data was just for the ny office except like 2-3 of the firms which were firmwide, but still heavily ny based like stb

[jbagelboy]

thought this might be interesting. looking at Summer 2014 and 15 based on the data reported here on tls on firms that are almost all ny centric 'elite' firms as defined by vault http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=239113(to give a sense of current placement ability rather than historically (as penn has presumably grown in placement over the past 10 odd years)


2015-

cls nyu penn
wachtell 5 2 2
cravath 18 12 3
skadden 21 16 2
sullcrom 10 10 5
dpw 22 13 7

v5 subtotal 76 53 19


deb 17 8 2
pw 17 25 8
stb 10 10 9
ke 6 9 2

total 126 105 40

class size info from LST and transfer guestimate from this post http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 27&t=82937
penn c/o 2016 size = 251 +25? transfers = 276
nyu c/o 2016 size = 437 + 47? transfers = 484 or 1.75x penn
columbia c/o 2016 size = 352 +52? transfers = 402 or 1.46x penn

assuming equal desire for elite nyc biglaw between these schools (unlikely given penn's 45ish percent placement versus cls/nyu at ~70), SAs at top firms adjusting for class size--

Penn 40/276 = 14.5%
NYU 105/477 = 21.7%
Columbia 126/402 = 31.3%

Again, speaking to NYU and Penn specifically there is a 45 v 70 situation wrt to ny placement but im not sure what the best way to factor that in is

summer 2014 -

cls nyu penn

sullcrom 17 12 4
dpw 23 18 9
cravath 17 8 1

pw 11 10 5
cleary 15 12 4
deb 9 9 5
weil 10 3 4

totals 102 72 32

class of 2015 sizes
penn = 243+25? = 278
nyu = 451+40? = 491
cls = 366+52? = 418

penn 32/278 = 11.5%
nyu 32/491 = 14.7%
cls = 102/418 = 24.4%

important things to remember when looking at this data -
kinda bullshitted transfer numbers but probably wouldnt change the data much +/- 5
oci/eiw/eip participation
45 v 70 geographic placement
nyu preference for PI
complete lack of DC firms (and other markets but DC is an acknowledged difficult market where these schools have solid placement from 9-12 ish percent i think, with P a bit higher), boutiques, and even the proper v10 or 15 or whatever mostly arbitrary distinction youd prefer
also maybe those TLSers are just pathologically lying

let me know if i messed anything up / egregious problems with methodology that go totally unacknowledged

eta: all data was just for the ny office except like 2-3 of the firms which were firmwide, but still heavily ny based like stb

This is roughly confirmed historically

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

My sense is that a Penn student will need slightly better credentials to land a particular type of new york firm than NYU or CLS students require. By contrast, in DC, the schools are treated comparably. However, the more important question: does this matter? Penn students are getting good jobs.

[grizzlybear]

thought this might be interesting. looking at Summer 2014 and 15 based on the data reported here on tls on firms that are almost all ny centric 'elite' firms as defined by vault http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=239113(to give a sense of current placement ability rather than historically (as penn has presumably grown in placement over the past 10 odd years)


2015-

cls nyu penn
wachtell 5 2 2
cravath 18 12 3
skadden 21 16 2
sullcrom 10 10 5
dpw 22 13 7

v5 subtotal 76 53 19


deb 17 8 2
pw 17 25 8
stb 10 10 9
ke 6 9 2

total 126 105 40

class size info from LST and transfer guestimate from this post http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 27&t=82937
penn c/o 2016 size = 251 +25? transfers = 276
nyu c/o 2016 size = 437 + 47? transfers = 484 or 1.75x penn
columbia c/o 2016 size = 352 +52? transfers = 402 or 1.46x penn

assuming equal desire for elite nyc biglaw between these schools (unlikely given penn's 45ish percent placement versus cls/nyu at ~70), SAs at top firms adjusting for class size--

Penn 40/276 = 14.5%
NYU 105/477 = 21.7%
Columbia 126/402 = 31.3%

Again, speaking to NYU and Penn specifically there is a 45 v 70 situation wrt to ny placement but im not sure what the best way to factor that in is

summer 2014 -

cls nyu penn

sullcrom 17 12 4
dpw 23 18 9
cravath 17 8 1

pw 11 10 5
cleary 15 12 4
deb 9 9 5
weil 10 3 4

totals 102 72 32

class of 2015 sizes
penn = 243+25? = 278
nyu = 451+40? = 491
cls = 366+52? = 418

penn 32/278 = 11.5%
nyu 32/491 = 14.7%
cls = 102/418 = 24.4%

important things to remember when looking at this data -
kinda bullshitted transfer numbers but probably wouldnt change the data much +/- 5
oci/eiw/eip participation
45 v 70 geographic placement
nyu preference for PI
complete lack of DC firms (and other markets but DC is an acknowledged difficult market where these schools have solid placement from 9-12 ish percent i think, with P a bit higher), boutiques, and even the proper v10 or 15 or whatever mostly arbitrary distinction youd prefer
also maybe those TLSers are just pathologically lying

let me know if i messed anything up / egregious problems with methodology that go totally unacknowledged

eta: all data was just for the ny office except like 2-3 of the firms which were firmwide, but still heavily ny based like stb

This is roughly confirmed historically

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

My sense is that a Penn student will need slightly better credentials to land a particular type of new york firm than NYU or CLS students require. By contrast, in DC, the schools are treated comparably. However, the more important question: does this matter? Penn students are getting good jobs.

Agree, was simply trying to address the above discussion of "elite" firms. Also, though unrelated, I found the cls/nyu discrepancy interesting

[Paragon]

Thank you everyone for the incredible data. This is super helpful. I was leaning towards Penn before reading all of this but now I am going to do some more research before I make a decision. I found some information on ATL that I found interesting, and wouldn't mind if someone commented on. ATL says that of the 82% of students at Penn that anticipate working for a firm, 65% do. While at NYU, of the 88% that anticipate working at a firm, only 53% do. See these two links:
http://abovethelaw.com/schools/universi ... nsylvania/
http://abovethelaw.com/schools/new-york ... aw-school/

At first I thought this meant that it was easier for Penn students to get a firm job. But, perhaps, it means that as mentioned before a lot of NYU students self select out of firm work and do PI? Anyone ideas?

[kaiser]

Thank you everyone for the incredible data. This is super helpful. I was leaning towards Penn before reading all of this but now I am going to do some more research before I make a decision. I found some information on ATL that I found interesting, and wouldn't mind if someone commented on. ATL says that of the 82% of students at Penn that anticipate working for a firm, 65% do. While at NYU, of the 88% that anticipate working at a firm, only 53% do. See these two links:
http://abovethelaw.com/schools/universi ... nsylvania/
http://abovethelaw.com/schools/new-york ... aw-school/

At first I thought this meant that it was easier for Penn students to get a firm job. But, perhaps, it means that as mentioned before a lot of NYU students self select out of firm work and do PI? Anyone ideas?

Can't say for sure, but I knew quite a few classmates who went the PI route that would have easily been in line for top biglaw spots. For example, 2 of the top editorial staff members on my journal went the PI route, including the Editor in Chief (the previous year's editor in chief went to work for SullCrom). And I'd imagine this kind of thing is fairly common. Again, can't say for sure whether it explains the numbers you cite, but I'd imagine it provides at least some of the answer.

[03152016]

whoa, those numbers are completely off
use lstscorereports.com for accurate placement data pulled directly from 509s
it is proven that more than 53% go to firms
and it is absolutely impossible that 88% of nyu students anticipate working at a firm as entering students
unless this is a survey of like ATL readers in which cases ljfl

[Paragon]

whoa, those numbers are completely off
use lstscorereports.com for accurate placement data pulled directly from 509s
it is proven that more than 53% go to firms
and it is absolutely impossible that 88% of nyu students anticipate working at a firm as entering students
unless this is a survey of like ATL readers in which cases ljfl

yea, ATL says the information was collected through "insider surveys and the American Bar Association" and their surveys must not be as accurate. Thanks for commenting!

[jbagelboy]

Assuming some rough parallelism between NYU and Columbia, since anyone at basically any place in the class can get a firm SA if they hustle and bid/interview right, by default the folks going into government or fellowships (and probably some going into public interest as well) decided not to enter private practice, rather than, not having the opportunity to do it.