Desperate: Please help me decide.

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gsenator
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Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby gsenator » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:55 pm

w/e
Last edited by gsenator on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: Desparate: Please help me decide.

Postby IAFG » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:59 pm

Is U of O your cheapest option?

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ilovesf
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Re: Desparate: Please help me decide.

Postby ilovesf » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:02 pm

Can you live at home while attending USF?

MrAnon
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Re: Desparate: Please help me decide.

Postby MrAnon » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:04 pm

It sounds like you want to be employed. Have you considered moving to a big city and looking for a job instead of trying to stay in your area or go to law school at one of these schools?

shmoo597
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Re: Desparate: Please help me decide.

Postby shmoo597 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:04 pm

gsenator wrote:My question is this: Which law school will provide me with the best opportunity for employment.


To be completely honest, none of the schools provide you with a good opportunity for employment, let alone employment that will allow you to live comfortably while paying down 100k+ in debt. If you feel impoverished now, imagine how you feel with no job, bad job prospects, and an additional 100k+ in debt. I'm not trying to be overdramatic, but it is what it is. Do some research on your own, and you'll see that attending any of these schools has a good chance of ruining your life.

Don't go to law school. When will you people learn?

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ilovesf
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Re: Desparate: Please help me decide.

Postby ilovesf » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:07 pm

shmoo597 wrote:
gsenator wrote:My question is this: Which law school will provide me with the best opportunity for employment.


To be completely honest, none of the schools provide you with a good opportunity for employment, let alone employment that will allow you to live comfortably while paying down 100k+ in debt. If you feel impoverished now, imagine how you feel with no job, bad job prospects, and an additional 100k+ in debt. I'm not trying to be overdramatic, but it is what it is. Do some research on your own, and you'll see that attending any of these schools has a good chance of ruining your life.

Don't go to law school. When will you people learn?

:roll: It's one thing to give advice about attending a law school with bad employment prospects, it's another thing to be an asshole about it.

shmoo597
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Re: Desparate: Please help me decide.

Postby shmoo597 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:11 pm

ilovesf wrote:
shmoo597 wrote:
gsenator wrote:My question is this: Which law school will provide me with the best opportunity for employment.


To be completely honest, none of the schools provide you with a good opportunity for employment, let alone employment that will allow you to live comfortably while paying down 100k+ in debt. If you feel impoverished now, imagine how you feel with no job, bad job prospects, and an additional 100k+ in debt. I'm not trying to be overdramatic, but it is what it is. Do some research on your own, and you'll see that attending any of these schools has a good chance of ruining your life.

Don't go to law school. When will you people learn?

:roll: It's one thing to give advice about attending a law school with bad employment prospects, it's another thing to be an asshole about it.


It just surprises me that despite all the doom and gloom here, on xoxo, ATL, etc, AND the articles in the NYT, WSJ, mainstream press, etc about how fucked the legal job market is, doe-eyed applicants still think that attending a TT or TTT at sticker (or close to sticker) is even a remotely good idea. When will it sink in that law school is, save for those getting biglaw or those incurring less then 100k of debt, a GIANT SCAM.

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traehekat
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Re: Desparate: Please help me decide.

Postby traehekat » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:11 pm

shmoo597 wrote:
gsenator wrote:My question is this: Which law school will provide me with the best opportunity for employment.


To be completely honest, none of the schools provide you with a good opportunity for employment, let alone employment that will allow you to live comfortably while paying down 100k+ in debt. If you feel impoverished now, imagine how you feel with no job, bad job prospects, and an additional 100k+ in debt. I'm not trying to be overdramatic, but it is what it is. Do some research on your own, and you'll see that attending any of these schools has a good chance of ruining your life.

Don't go to law school. When will you people learn?


This is basically my advice, with caveat that if you absolutely MUST go to law school and become a lawyer, then do yourself a favor and retake the LSAT a couple times and get that score as high as possible. Unless you will literally become homeless if you do not attend law school, then you should be spending the next 6-9 months preparing to retake.

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ilovesf
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Re: Desparate: Please help me decide.

Postby ilovesf » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:16 pm

shmoo597 wrote:It just surprises me that despite all the doom and gloom here, on xoxo, ATL, etc, AND the articles in the NYT, WSJ, mainstream press, etc about how fucked the legal job market is, doe-eyed applicants still think that attending a TT or TTT at sticker (or close to sticker) is even a remotely good idea. When will it sink in that law school is, save for those getting biglaw or those incurring less then 100k of debt, a GIANT SCAM.

I don't disagree with that. But I also don't think you gain anything from being rude. Generally, when someone is an asshole, it kind of detracts from whatever they're saying and people ignore it because they're such a pain.

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20121109
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Re: Desparate: Please help me decide.

Postby 20121109 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:17 pm

ilovesf wrote:
shmoo597 wrote:It just surprises me that despite all the doom and gloom here, on xoxo, ATL, etc, AND the articles in the NYT, WSJ, mainstream press, etc about how fucked the legal job market is, doe-eyed applicants still think that attending a TT or TTT at sticker (or close to sticker) is even a remotely good idea. When will it sink in that law school is, save for those getting biglaw or those incurring less then 100k of debt, a GIANT SCAM.

I don't disagree with that. But I also don't think you gain anything from being rude. Generally, when someone is an asshole, it kind of detracts from whatever they're saying and people ignore it because they're such a pain.


If only more people on TLS would listen to you.

josh43299
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Re: Desparate: Please help me decide.

Postby josh43299 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:20 pm

So what kind of support from friends/family do you expect? How long have you been out of undergrad? I feel your pain OP, I live in a town of 2,000 people which is one of the most depressed areas economically in a state which is one of the poorest in the nation already. I did find a decent job, but I have to drive an hour to and from everyday... it sucks. The point being, I was in a very similar position last year. I retook (had a meltdown the first time like you) and brought my score up 11 points, which is of course unusual but not necessarily so with hard work (and learning to control your nerves). You have to think long term here, despite your crappy situation right now. Law schools don't really care if you wait a year and it is your best move, I hate to say. You are clearly capable of more if you were PTing higher, don't compromise your potential due to impatience. One thing that you could consider is relocating for the next year and a half to a state that has a good in-state school (if you don't already live in one) while you get that LSAT up and work. Ask your family for some money to cover relocation expenses and give them your year plan... to work, get a 169+, and a scholarship.
Last edited by josh43299 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby dingbat » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:23 pm

gsenator wrote:Hello TLS forums. This is my first message after over a year of reading these forum's posts. I am in desperate need of some advice/guidance/unbiased info

I was recently accepted to University of San Francisco ( 40k Scholarship), Seattle University (18k Scholarship), University of Oregon (none). WL at Iowa, Denver, Hawaii. Deferred Lewis and Clarke, Santa Clara.

Lsat 158/ GPA 3.45 - P. statement written about charity work done overseas for redcross/etc.

I know that I did about 5-10 points worse then my average on the day of the test. I panicked. Suffered the Consequences. So be it.

I simply cannot afford to wait an additional 1 & 1/2 year to attend law school by retaking my lsat. I am currently severely underemployed and have been so for a significant amount of time. ( In my area a job at Denny's is practically a job at a big law firm). I exacerbated all my means of supporting myself by buying LSAT supplies, paying for apps, etc.

My question is this: Which law school will provide me with the best opportunity for employment. I don't trust the BS statistics that schools publish. Conversely, I don't trust those sites which take a huge dump on ALL 2nd tier law firms... but I must admit, it does get under my skin a bit.

I'm not looking for a HUGE return upon graduation. I don't need to work in a huge world-renowned law firm. We all have our place in life. But for once, I'd like to be able to make a decent liveable salary...

This is an astronomical investment for me, but I've been graced with some scholarships and even some support from friends and family. I just don't know what is right? San Francisco Bay Area has the largest job market. Oregon seems to be the best "ranked" of the schools and I LOVE living in smaller cities, and Seattle U seems to be the most exciting and new ( I've lived in the Bay Area my whole life).

If you were in my boat.. what would you do?


In your case, if you must go, go to the absolute cheapest law school (tuition + cost of living). When you get out, you'll still have a law degree; even if you don't get a law related job, hopefully you'll be able to find a semi-decent job.
None of those schools are likely to get you big bucks, so the less you need to pay back, the better

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traehekat
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Re: Desparate: Please help me decide.

Postby traehekat » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:23 pm

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:
ilovesf wrote:
shmoo597 wrote:It just surprises me that despite all the doom and gloom here, on xoxo, ATL, etc, AND the articles in the NYT, WSJ, mainstream press, etc about how fucked the legal job market is, doe-eyed applicants still think that attending a TT or TTT at sticker (or close to sticker) is even a remotely good idea. When will it sink in that law school is, save for those getting biglaw or those incurring less then 100k of debt, a GIANT SCAM.

I don't disagree with that. But I also don't think you gain anything from being rude. Generally, when someone is an asshole, it kind of detracts from whatever they're saying and people ignore it because they're such a pain.


If only more people on TLS would listen to you.


The problem with 0Ls is if you ever tell them something they don't want to hear, you are being rude.

EDIT: Not referring to you specifically OP, just a generalization.

timbs4339
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:29 pm

If your family will support you during law school, then they will support you for the year you are studying to retake the LSAT and get a better score.

I'm not sure I understand your situation- you are willing to relocate for law school, but not to find a better job?

Taking on a huge amount of debt simply because you are stressed financially is not a good idea.

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20121109
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby 20121109 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:30 pm

By TLS standards, I personally don't think any post ITT is that rude. But in general, there is definitely a way to dissuade someone without any hint of rudeness. See e.g.

josh43299 wrote: You have to think long term here, despite your crappy situation right now. Law schools don't really care if you wait a year and it is your best move, I hate to say. You are clearly capable of more if you were PTing higher, don't compromise your potential due to impatience. One thing that you could consider is relocating for the next year and a half to a state that has a good in-state school (if you don't already live in one) while you get that LSAT up and work. Ask your family for some money to cover relocation expenses and give them your year plan... to work, get a 169+, and a scholarship.

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DCDuck
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby DCDuck » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:38 pm

None of these schools will necessarily provide you with a rosy-looking employment picture. And any of them can get you a job if you do well enough and really work on the job hunt. So go with the least expensive, which it sounds like would be SF. SF also has the largest market and you have the closest ties to the area, which can help with a job search.

But I do not suggest going to law school just because you have no other options. If you don't have a passion for the profession, then you could just end up way in debt, miserable, and three years older, still with tough employment prospects, unfortunately. It is also hard to do well when you hate every minute of studying. But if you really want to practice law, then go for it! I don't know anything about SF, but UO and Seattle are fine schools if you are dedicated and understand the risks anyone takes going to law school these days.

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sach1282
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby sach1282 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:40 pm

There are ways to live for a year that require no money (http://www.wwoof.org/ for instance). Do something else, study. The fact that you KNOW you can score higher should make this decision easy.

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No13baby
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby No13baby » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:44 pm

Also keep in mind that scholarships from TTTs (e.g. University of San Francisco) often come with stipulations requiring you to keep a certain GPA or class rank. That $40k from USF probably looks pretty good right now, but it won't be worth much if you can't keep it after the first year.

Seattle U might be a good option for you, since you're not averse to living in small towns. It would be very difficult to get a job in Seattle proper from SU, as the Seattle legal community is small, insular, overwhelmed with aspiring attorneys, and prefers those with ties to Seattle, but if you'd be willing to work in a smaller town or city elsewhere in WA and that scholarship is good for all three years, it's worth considering. Seattle is a fun place to spend three years of your young adult life.

gsenator
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby gsenator » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:35 pm

Thanks all! I appreciate your help and advice, even as dismal as it is.

Let me clarify... I don't live in some bum-shit town. On paper everything is ok. But in reality it really isn't. I graduated from a private university with a dual-degree in Legal Studies/Criminal Justice with honors. Worked at a bank throughout college (until the 2008 fiasco , duh), supported myself, and I am debt free. No parties, no drugs, no dick shitting. On my spare time I traveled the world and did volunteer work; built houses, fed the lepers, clothed kids, yadda yadda yadda. I've known I wanted to go to law school since day 1 of Uni. I grew up in the silicon valley, from a relatively affluent family, which begs the obviously question, " why don't you have a good job, prospects, etc." But I think it goes without saying that most well-off or comfortable people don't get that way by giving all their money away. And certainly that is how it has been for me... I've earned everything I have ( which as of right now is relatively nothing lol). I'm not going to make this a soap-box post about my tribulations. Everybody has their own. Enough said.

Back to the question at hand. Is it possible to have a GOOD life with these schools? I don't mind making 50-60k a year. It is what it is. But I've been out of school for almost 14 months, and have been looking for work for 2 years and have found NOTHING except washing dishes. Keep in mind I'm not some socially inept fool. I have plenty of work experience etc.

If I went to USF I doubt I could live at home, as it is about an hour and a half away from the campus... that is a ridiculous commute.

as far as the Lsat goes I guess I don't KNOW what I can get. I FELT I could do better... but i ALWAYS choke during tests... no matter what subject :-/

I notice a lot of you who have posted are also attending/ have been accepted to some of the schools I've mentioned. Are you going to attend this year etc?

I have many many friends who attend TT schools who just don't seem to have the anxiety and fear that I find from TLS forum members. Why is that? They seem well informed enough... Hopefully this isn't my second and LAST post.

Ty for any advice.

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DCDuck
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby DCDuck » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:48 pm

I go to the UO and I love it. It has also worked out very well for me. It is possible to have a comfortable life from any of those schools. But it is also possible from any of those schools to work your butt off, even do pretty well, and wind up graduating with no legal job prospects. It does seem like the legal market is starting to improve, so hopefully things will be better for your class.

Since it sounds like you've thought seriously about going, I think you should do it. But the schools are fairly comparable so you will need to weigh cost, location and general gut feeling. Maybe check out some of the school-specific threads for more information if you haven't already. No one here can tell you which school would be a better fit for you.

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bk1
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby bk1 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:07 pm

gsenator wrote:Back to the question at hand. Is it possible to have a GOOD life with these schools? I don't mind making 50-60k a year.

The vast majority of low end law jobs make 30-60k. Coming from a crappy school you are unlikely to end up on the high end of this range so making 50-60k out of these schools is a better outcome than you should expect.
gsenator wrote:If I went to USF I doubt I could live at home, as it is about an hour and a half away from the campus... that is a ridiculous commute.

USF only places 1/4 of their grads into full time jobs that require a JD (check lawschooltransparency.com). You'd be lucky to even get a full time job coming out of USF.
gsenator wrote:as far as the Lsat goes I guess I don't KNOW what I can get. I FELT I could do better... but i ALWAYS choke during tests... no matter what subject :-/

So what are you going to do when your important first year law classes are almost always graded on the basis of a single test at the end of the semester?
gsenator wrote:I have many many friends who attend TT schools who just don't seem to have the anxiety and fear that I find from TLS forum members. Why is that? They seem well informed enough... Hopefully this isn't my second and LAST post.

Maybe they're at the top of their class, maybe they got lucky, maybe they're not a representative sample, maybe they're ashamed to admit that things are going badly for them, maybe they are ignorant of the situation...who knows. The fact is that things really are bad out there whether the people you know are cognizant of it or not.

gsenator
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby gsenator » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:29 pm

agreed and agreed.

I agree with all of those key points.

Yet something comes to mind, even now. Perhaps all this doom and gloom seen from many of the TLS subscribes is significantly influenced by the harsh economic realities of the past 5 years. Talking to some family members/family friends who went to TT or TTT law schools and ALL make over 2xx,xxx , they just don't seem to have the " omg the sky is falling in, i didn't get into T14-30 school perspective that I've seen from a lot of this message board. I'm looking at things big picture, 15-30 years from now.

one last note.. I've read a lot that the employment statistics posted on this website/school's own official websites are skewed or unrepresentative of the truth. If this is so... with so many lawyers coming from those institutions, why aren't there more law suits being brought against the schools? I know I hear about some, but you would think judging from the atmosphere around here that this would be much much more prevelant.

DCDUCK UU friend, mind if I PM you some messaged about your experiences at that school? ty!

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bk1
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby bk1 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:37 pm

gsenator wrote:Yet something comes to mind, even now. Perhaps all this doom and gloom seen from many of the TLS subscribes is significantly influenced by the harsh economic realities of the past 5 years. Talking to some family members/family friends who went to TT or TTT law schools and ALL make over 2xx,xxx , they just don't seem to have the " omg the sky is falling in, i didn't get into T14-30 school perspective that I've seen from a lot of this message board. I'm looking at things big picture, 15-30 years from now.

A few things:

1. Most lawyers never make 6 figures their entire career.
2. When these people went to school, law school didn't cost as much as it does now.
3. While you might be able to work your way up in the legal field, there is a substantial chance that you won't even get a full time job as a lawyer from these schools and that effectively will end your shot at ever making it rain.
4. Your perspective seems skewed. It makes sense though from what you describe. You come from an affluent family. Your family and friends are likely affluent as well, meaning they paint a distorted picture of reality (on the whole they are more likely to have connections that most people at TT/TTT schools don't have).
5. While things have generally always been rough at TT/TTT schools (and it isn't until now that it's been recently published), the contraction of the legal market has made it even worse.
6. These people probably would have been successful whether they went to a T14 or TTT. They probably have business acumen and lawyering skills that most lawyers lack and thus make it rain. You can't really rely on these things since you can't really know how good your business acumen or lawyering skills are.

gsenator wrote:one last note.. I've read a lot that the employment statistics posted on this website/school's own official websites are skewed or unrepresentative of the truth. If this is so... with so many lawyers coming from those institutions, why aren't there more law suits being brought against the schools? I know I hear about some, but you would think judging from the atmosphere around here that this would be much much more prevelant.


The problem is that while some of them did actually lie, a lot of them just spun the truth.

3L Student
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby 3L Student » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:45 pm

I know many students at Oregon Law. And very, very few 3Ls have jobs lined up right now. But if the economy picks up, then Oregon places well in the Northwest with small to medium sized firms.

And FYI, the Oregon CDO is bribing the students with a ticket for a cash prize raffle for every five jobs that they apply to -- most students can't find five jobs to apply to.

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JCFindley
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Re: Desperate: Please help me decide.

Postby JCFindley » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:51 pm

GS, pick the school you like and go with it.... Personally, being a big college football fan I would go with the Ducks.... Plus there are some hot girls there and maybe you can find one to marry and support ya later.... (I am J/K about that btw..... because I am sure whatever they are majoring in won't pay 160K either)

I have only been on this forum for half a day and am already contemplating killing myself because I won't get into a T-14 school....:o) I am honestly not sure why the 15 and higher even exist anymore except to steal our money..... I have been in some negative groups but so far this forum has beat all I've ever seen....... ROFLMAO

I have seen that wait a cycle a LOT on here today..... Must be nice to have the option to hang out another year hoping you will do better next year.

Just curious, why not go to a "lesser" school then transfer later? (I honestly have no idea how that works......) But then again, this is "Top" Law Schools and I suppose that is where the focus is.....

If I listened to all the people that said that can't be done or your odds are slim I would never get anything done.

Good luck on your selections,

JC




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