Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where to attend?

University of Washington
33
60%
Notre Dame (25k)
22
40%
 
Total votes: 55

lawschool?s
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:20 am

Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby lawschool?s » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:04 am

So while I wait to hear back from USC and Cornell which have post poned me so many times I can feel the dings just waiting I wanted to hear your opinions on the situation of UW vs. Notre Dame with money.

University of Washington
+Raised in Washington and significant ties
+Alma Mater and girlfriend and family in Seattle
+Would like to end on West Coast, preferably Seattle or California (all my family but immediate live in California, born but not raised there)
+Instate Tution ($28,000)
-I would like to go somewhere else and try something new
-Lower ranking and no scholarship money

Notre Dame
+Lay Prestige which I hope would allow me to reach the West Coast, would be willing to work in Chicago and lateral to the west but do not want to be trapped in the midwest
+$25,000 scholarship renewable every year with good academic standing limiting debt and making tuition like $18,000 a year and cheaper cost of living than Seattle
+Like the football team
-While "catholic" I am not practicing and am not religious and do not prefer a religous attitude
-No ties to anywhere outside of the west coast
-Southbend and Midwest are definately not my cup of tea

While I wait to hear back from USC and Cornell, these are my only real two options and I wanted to hear your wise input. I know having ties is important which UW has and it is in a region I wouldn't mind practicing, but ND is cheaper, better ranked, and has lay prestige. Which would you guys choose?

lawschool?s
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby lawschool?s » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:11 am

Sorry forgot to mention career goals. I am not incredibly interested in biglaw, while I would like a 6 figure paycheck I am not a fan of working long hours. I would prefer a comfortable living with a comfortable wage.

I have also been very interested in the JAG program, but it is offly competitive to get into so I can't completely rely on that either.

tennisking88
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby tennisking88 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:16 am

lawschool?s wrote:So while I wait to hear back from USC and Cornell which have post poned me so many times I can feel the dings just waiting I wanted to hear your opinions on the situation of UW vs. Notre Dame with money.

University of Washington
+Raised in Washington and significant ties
+Alma Mater and girlfriend and family in Seattle
+Would like to end on West Coast, preferably Seattle or California (all my family but immediate live in California, born but not raised there)
+Instate Tution ($28,000)
-I would like to go somewhere else and try something new
-Lower ranking and no scholarship money

Notre Dame
+Lay Prestige which I hope would allow me to reach the West Coast, would be willing to work in Chicago and lateral to the west but do not want to be trapped in the midwest
+$25,000 scholarship renewable every year with good academic standing limiting debt and making tuition like $18,000 a year and cheaper cost of living than Seattle
+Like the football team
-While "catholic" I am not practicing and am not religious and do not prefer a religous attitude
-No ties to anywhere outside of the west coast
-Southbend and Midwest are definately not my cup of tea

While I wait to hear back from USC and Cornell, these are my only real two options and I wanted to hear your wise input. I know having ties is important which UW has and it is in a region I wouldn't mind practicing, but ND is cheaper, better ranked, and has lay prestige. Which would you guys choose?


Things to ponder:
1. Are you/your gf cool with living apart for 3 yrs?
2. Wouldn't bank on lateraling from midwest to west. If you wanna end up on the west coast, esp. in Seattle, I would go to UW.
3. If the midwest is not your cup of tea, you may absolutely hate South Bend.
4. The 30-40k you would save, in the grand scheme of things (or in 10 years), is not THAT big a difference.
5. ND does have more lay prestige, a stronger alumni network (I think), and you'll have a better shot at BigLaw. That being said, you'd still have to place w/in top 1/5-1/4 of your class.
6. The Chicago market, for which ND is most competitive, is still pretty dead.

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Bronck
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby Bronck » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:17 am

Go to UW. It won't get you CA, but it'll keep you in Seattle.

And ranking doesn't matter after the T14. These schools are regional.

ETA: Why do you think lay prestige is even remotely important?
Last edited by Bronck on Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

srfngdd6
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby srfngdd6 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:24 am

Washington sounds like probably the best option for you

lawschool?s
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby lawschool?s » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:38 am

I am honestly not that big of a fan of Washington. Having grown up in the rain and even sitting in Seattle right now, I would prefer to end up in the bay area or southern California and I feel like Notre Dame's lay prestige and alumni base might be able to do more for me in this regard.

I am sure I could survive the rugged winters in the midwest, but I don't think I would want to stay. I actually just met up with the head of the ND Alumni Association while I was in San Fran and he made it seemed like the transition to the west coast was rather smooth for him (although he was originally from California and this was 20 years ago).

I already was rejected from UCLA and have not heard back from USC yet obviously which would be one of my top choices. I wouldn't mind NYC and the portability of Cornell would be nice to try and eventually come back to the west (but I wouldn't mind ending up in NYC one bit).


And sorry I am not a retake person. I scored a 167 which might seem low to TLS, but it was the best score I got out of any of the practice tests even and so in all likelihood if I retook it I would lower my score.

tennisking88
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby tennisking88 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:42 am

I think you just answered your own question: Unless USC/Cornell => ND.

lawschool?s
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby lawschool?s » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:22 pm

But how portable is an ND degree back to the west? Is it worth the risk?

Its a fairly substantial scholarship esspecially for my numbers and I feel like it is hard to deny something like that.

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grtbooks91
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby grtbooks91 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:39 pm

I can't speak too much to the prospects of an ND degree in Seattle, but I've talked to a few Portland-based ND alums who all reinforce the idea that the 'lay prestige' of the school seems to be intact out there, though probably to a much lesser degree than in other parts of the country (I point this out because you seem quite concerned with lay prestige). I don't think, however, that this should really be a factor in your decision.

I know that ND has off-campus interviews in NY, DC, and LA, so there would be opportunities for you to get your name out to West Coast firms through something other than mass-mailing or OCI, but I can't speak at all to how likely you are to make it at one of those firms without ties to LA itself. I know that quite a few kids come to NDLS from California, and many students end up there (it was the second-most represented state in the most recent employment data), but I don't know how many of those in the latter group were from there in the first place, or what sorts of jobs they end up getting in CA.

If you have other questions about ND specifically, you might want to track down ndirish2010 and ask him, he's a good resource.

I'll be starting in the fall at ND and hope to see you there!

acrossthelake
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:02 pm

lawschool?s wrote:But how portable is an ND degree back to the west? Is it worth the risk?

Its a fairly substantial scholarship esspecially for my numbers and I feel like it is hard to deny something like that.


Mobility for someone who graduated in 2006 is going to be vastly different from now, so it's not really worth it talking to anyone who graduated before the crash on how easy it was. I don't know much about ND. I actually, to be honest, didn't know it even had lay prestige. But I would try to see if you can get statistics of recent alums and of current students from ND about how able they were to go out to California.

If you do end up deciding to go to ND, you will be in a somewhat-rough bind for establishing ties. If you want to go to California, then you will want to try your hardest to go to California for 1L summer to establish SOMETHING there, but then you risk making your ties in the midwest seem really weak (going to school there isn't enough). If you go to UW, and did your 1L summer elsewhere in California, it probably wouldn't hurt your ties in Seattle much(you could claim you were just really interested in that particular opportunity).

wiscohopeful
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby wiscohopeful » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:23 pm

lawschool?s wrote:So while I wait to hear back from USC and Cornell which have post poned me so many times I can feel the dings just waiting I wanted to hear your opinions on the situation of UW vs. Notre Dame with money.

University of Washington
+Raised in Washington and significant ties
+Alma Mater and girlfriend and family in Seattle
+Would like to end on West Coast, preferably Seattle or California (all my family but immediate live in California, born but not raised there)
+Instate Tution ($28,000)
-I would like to go somewhere else and try something new
-Lower ranking and no scholarship money

Notre Dame
+Lay Prestige which I hope would allow me to reach the West Coast, would be willing to work in Chicago and lateral to the west but do not want to be trapped in the midwest
+$25,000 scholarship renewable every year with good academic standing limiting debt and making tuition like $18,000 a year and cheaper cost of living than Seattle
+Like the football team
-While "catholic" I am not practicing and am not religious and do not prefer a religous attitude
-No ties to anywhere outside of the west coast
-Southbend and Midwest are definately not my cup of tea

While I wait to hear back from USC and Cornell, these are my only real two options and I wanted to hear your wise input. I know having ties is important which UW has and it is in a region I wouldn't mind practicing, but ND is cheaper, better ranked, and has lay prestige. Which would you guys choose?


Long distance sucks, are you and the gf ready for it?

I wouldn't think any amount of lay prestige matters for getting back to a legal job...I may be wrong, maybe it matters if you want to "lateral" back to the west coast for a nonlegal job

The midwest does awful things to people who are not accustomed to it. This winter has been particularly mild, but it can get bad. Also, South Bend is pretty awful unless you just love being surrounded only and at all times by golden domers

As to the Chicago market, I also wouldn't bank on finding a job there unless things drastically pick up. The state of Illinois has 8? law schools and then you also have the other midwest and national schools feeding the market. Even at ND, you have to do decently well to get the job. I would say pick the UW

lawschool?s
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby lawschool?s » Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:36 am

Girlfriend and I would probably end up taking a break during law school, but I always take school and hopefully a job as a priority. (Keep in mind I am only 19 soon to be 20)

I was under the assumption that ND had better job prospects than UW, but you guys are sure painting a different picture.

Plus a good portion of ND ends up in California, although I don't have significant ties like I bet most of them do. I am hoping to some how hop on the bandwagon and end up there.

Would being born in, partially raised (till 4 haha), spent summers and winters every year in california, and all my family besides parents live in California count as enough ties?



I feel like you guys are just messing with me on the poll to keep it even.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby Doorkeeper » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:10 am

A) Notre Dame is a regional school. It will not reach the west coast aside from selected firms who have a big name partner who went to ND.

B) Use the ND money to negotiate from Washington. You should be able to get some money out of them.

C) If you want to work in Washington after law school, go to Washington.

lawschool?s
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby lawschool?s » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:12 pm

While I have ties to Washington I don't particularly want to end up here, but I would prefer to end up in Seattle over the Midwest.

Its a hard decision, I like how Notre Dame has a better name/reputation and is cheaper than UW, but it is not in a region I would like to end up in (UW is not either, but better than the Midwest).

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Bronck
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby Bronck » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:31 pm

lawschool?s wrote:While I have ties to Washington I don't particularly want to end up here, but I would prefer to end up in Seattle over the Midwest.

Its a hard decision, I like how Notre Dame has a better name/reputation and is cheaper than UW, but it is not in a region I would like to end up in (UW is not either, but better than the Midwest).


If you don't want to end up in the Midwest, then don't go to a Midwestern school.

lawschool?s
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby lawschool?s » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:47 pm

Bronck wrote:
lawschool?s wrote:While I have ties to Washington I don't particularly want to end up here, but I would prefer to end up in Seattle over the Midwest.

Its a hard decision, I like how Notre Dame has a better name/reputation and is cheaper than UW, but it is not in a region I would like to end up in (UW is not either, but better than the Midwest).


If you don't want to end up in the Midwest, then don't go to a Midwestern school.


Looking at there site almost 20% ended up in the West Coast (mainly California, I included WA, OR, CO and some others).

And another 20% ended up in the Northeast (mainly NY, but I included MA, NJ, CT, and some others)

So 40% of the class ended up in areas I would like to live.

http://law.nd.edu/careers/employment-data/

I don't know. I feel like that info is important on deciding where to attend.

lawschool?s
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby lawschool?s » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:01 pm

Holy shit. I just looked at the Rankings and UW jumped from 30th to 20th and is officially ahead of Notre Dame.

Thats intense. I did not expect that.

dreakol
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby dreakol » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:03 pm

i'm pretty sure you should go to udub now

HerseyChris
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby HerseyChris » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:03 am

Alright, I'll put in my $.02 since I'm currently a 2L at UW Law, and went to undergrad at WUSTL.

It sounds like you don't really like Seattle that much. I'm a Seattle native, so I'm not really sure why that would be the case, but that's your preference. Having lived in the midwest for 4 years and then another year after college, I can say that I like the west coast infinitely more. It's really cold in the midwest during the winters and hot as hell during the summers. The culture is different too (Unless we're talking Chicago which is like the Atlanta of the Midwest, actually Atlanta is probably the Chicago of the South).

So if you want to work in Portland or CA after law school, I think UW would be a better choice. When you do do interviews (not sure about mid-sized, but for OCI), the Portland firms will ask you about ties to Portland and why it is you want to be in Portland specifically rather than Seattle (inferiority complex I guess). I know several friends who have little to know problem getting summer work in California (and we seem to have a large SF contingent here), but I'm not sure how many actually end up working in CA?

FWIW, I love it at UW. My classmates are great, profs are great, etc. Obviously, if you get into USC, I would say that's your best shot, though tbh, I think just one point higher on the LSAT would have helped you out a lot (it sucks, I know).

CanadianWolf
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:35 am

Two great choices. Notre Dame may be more portable than suggested in this thread. Since you're interested in JAG opportunities, either school should work. You need to contact current students at each school to determine placement reach. Ask each law school for more scholarship money.

P.S. The irony is that a few years in South Bend may teach you to love Seattle.

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flyingduck
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby flyingduck » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:17 pm

If the possibility of working in the Midwest for several years is not for you, don't go to ND. And you don't want to work in the Midwest for several years only to start from scratch again IF you get a chance to lateral to the West Coast. Additionally, the ~$10k extra you'd be paying at the University of Washington is, IMHO, well worth the close distance to your family and girlfriend. Distance will no doubt put strains on your relationship with your family and girlfriend. Finally, the University of Washington got a nice bump to 18(?) in the 2013 US News rankings, not that it should matter.

skitlets
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby skitlets » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:29 pm

Bronck wrote:Go to UW. It won't get you CA, but it'll keep you in Seattle.

And ranking doesn't matter after the T14. These schools are regional.

ETA: Why do you think lay prestige is even remotely important?


UW won't get back to CA? =(

It's UW, Hastings, or UCI... Hastings' employment numbers just aren't all that great for the cost...

Lvaughn714
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Re: Notre Dame vs. University of Washington

Postby Lvaughn714 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:47 pm

First, if atmosphere is an issue, be aware that ND is in the super crappy middle of nowhere South Bend and the weather is horrible about November through April. I might actually prefer the rain in Washington to below 0 degrees and snow

ND portability is for real, but the lower you are in the class the harder it is. I'm from Texas and would like to go back at some point or at least leave the option open. I have been told by multiple partners at firms who I know that NDLS has a great reputation nationally so it can be competitive with whatever local regionals you would be against.

Finally, I have a good friend who is separatated from his lady for school and while they are making it work I know it has been extremely hard on him and has definitely had him questioning at times. Honestly I think the biggest thing keeping him from ending it is the fact that he is very shy and doesn't feel like starting over with another girl since he has so much else on his plate.




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