NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
WhiteGuy5
Posts: 919
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:47 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby WhiteGuy5 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:14 pm

kaiser wrote:I wouldn't say transfer class size undermines job placement performance. Transfers almost universally do very well and get great positions. The question is who these grads are displacing? Is it the people at the top of the class? No of course not. The upper half of the class will likely do fine based on their performance alone. The transfers merely change where the margin is, since firms might have their quota for NYU students filled by the time they reach median, whereas they may have dug a bit deeper if you take the 45 transfers out of the equation. So if we are to assume that the top half of the class would have gotten pretty much the same positions anyway, the only ones who get screwed by a large transfers class are those in the bottom half of the class who get pushed down by the addition of students who will almost all be taking big firm jobs ahead of them. And no one knows whether these kids on the margin would have been able to secure a position otherwise anyway, so in all likelihood, the additino of the transfers likely helps, rather than hurts placement since you add in 45 nearly surefire placement data points in good firms.



Well, unless I misunderstood you, the fact that we're dealing with percentages means that the issue of who the transferees displaced from the original class is irrelevant. The pie is getting bigger, but we're still talking about 100% of the pie. For NYU, the lesson would still be: your class is too big.

What you're describing might explain the discrepancy between what NYU said about OCI offers and the above results though.

User avatar
JusticeHarlan
Posts: 1434
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby JusticeHarlan » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:18 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I think the TL;DR; to this thread is T14 or bust.

Quoted for DF saying "T14."

kaiser
Posts: 2940
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 11:34 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby kaiser » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:19 pm

The pie is indeed getting bigger, but its like adding in an additional slice that is sure to get eaten anyway. And if we are to assume that the transfer class doesn't affect the top 1/2's ability to secure jobs, then the overall percentage employed goes up.
Last edited by kaiser on Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
WhiteGuy5
Posts: 919
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:47 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby WhiteGuy5 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:20 pm

kaiser wrote:The pie is indeed getting bigger, but its like adding in an additional slice that is sure to get eaten anyway. And if we are to assume that the transfer class doesn't affect the top 1/2's ability to secure jobs, then the overall percentage employed goes up.


Yes...lol...that's what I was saying in my reply. 8)

User avatar
Aberzombie1892
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:56 am

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:21 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I think the TL;DR; to this thread is T14 or bust.

Quoted for DF saying "T14."


180

ahnhub
Posts: 578
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:14 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby ahnhub » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:28 pm

On a tangentially related note-- do people who've been through OCI think employers come with a general idea of how many people they may want to hire from a particular school (something like, "oh, we'd like to take at least 1 or 2, but we will never take more than 5 in a class"), or they're pretty much willing to take as many people as they really like? Some firms really seem to act like they basically reserve seats for certain schools.

kaiser
Posts: 2940
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 11:34 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby kaiser » Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:31 pm

ahnhub wrote:On a tangentially related note-- do people who've been through OCI think employers come with a general idea of how many people they may want to hire from a particular school (something like, "oh, we'd like to take at least 1 or 2, but we will never take more than 5 in a class"), or they're pretty much willing to take as many people as they really like? Some firms really seem to act like they basically reserve seats for certain schools.


The few times I spoke candidly about this, most recruiters told me they have a general figure in mind of how they want the distribution to be. They said that, at more favored schools, they will be much more willing to expand the number if they meet a solid candidate even if they already hit their quota. But at lower ranked schools, they may go with the intention of getting the one top student, and getting right out of there, and won't give anyone else the time of day because they have to save the rest of the spots for higher ranked schools.

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby keg411 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:09 am

ahnhub wrote:On a tangentially related note-- do people who've been through OCI think employers come with a general idea of how many people they may want to hire from a particular school (something like, "oh, we'd like to take at least 1 or 2, but we will never take more than 5 in a class"), or they're pretty much willing to take as many people as they really like? Some firms really seem to act like they basically reserve seats for certain schools.


From the feedback I got during and post-OCI, most of them have an idea of how many they can give callbacks to at a particular school.

dixiecupdrinking
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:39 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:15 am

I do wish that NYU was a bit smaller sometimes, but I don't think that explains the results here. The NLJ numbers say that CLS graduated 455 JDs in 2011 and NYU graduated 466. Class size gets talked about too much on TLS. It doesn't really make that much of a difference. I think top 25% or top 50% at Columbia versus Chicago, for instance, is pretty much going to give you the same options despite twice as many students being ahead of you at Columbia.

redbullvodka
Posts: 166
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:51 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby redbullvodka » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:54 pm

Just so that 0Ls can put some of these numbers into perspective, reposting Chicago's summer OCI data. Things are better.

--LinkRemoved--

User avatar
WhiteGuy5
Posts: 919
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:47 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby WhiteGuy5 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:12 pm

redbullvodka wrote:Just so that 0Ls can put some of these numbers into perspective, reposting Chicago's summer OCI data. Things are better.

--LinkRemoved--


YES WE'RE ALL GOING TO BE RICH AGAIN!

ahnhub
Posts: 578
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:14 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby ahnhub » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:25 pm

WhiteGuy5 wrote:
redbullvodka wrote:Just so that 0Ls can put some of these numbers into perspective, reposting Chicago's summer OCI data. Things are better.

--LinkRemoved--


Yeah, when I saw that Chicago put 69% of c/o 2011 into firms for 2L summer (which is pretty impressive, considering), I just assumed they would kick ass when the NLJ numbers came out later. Penn students made their 2009 OCI sound just as bad as anywhere else. I can't imagine they did much better for 2L summer than Chicago.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby IAFG » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:31 pm

ahnhub wrote:
WhiteGuy5 wrote:
redbullvodka wrote:Just so that 0Ls can put some of these numbers into perspective, reposting Chicago's summer OCI data. Things are better.

--LinkRemoved--


Yeah, when I saw that Chicago put 69% of c/o 2011 into firms for 2L summer (which is pretty impressive, considering), I just assumed they would kick ass when the NLJ numbers came out later. Penn students made their 2009 OCI sound just as bad as anywhere else. I can't imagine they did much better for 2L summer than Chicago.

1) Have to consider their traditional clerkship placement
2) Remember not all "law firms" are NLJ250 firms (or market-paying firms) so that statement from UChicago is pretty meaningless. In fact many very desirable firms aren't NLJ250, but so are a bunch of midlaw and small law fallback type places.

User avatar
skers
Posts: 4950
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:33 am

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby skers » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:41 pm

IAFG wrote:
ahnhub wrote:
WhiteGuy5 wrote:
redbullvodka wrote:Just so that 0Ls can put some of these numbers into perspective, reposting Chicago's summer OCI data. Things are better.

--LinkRemoved--


Yeah, when I saw that Chicago put 69% of c/o 2011 into firms for 2L summer (which is pretty impressive, considering), I just assumed they would kick ass when the NLJ numbers came out later. Penn students made their 2009 OCI sound just as bad as anywhere else. I can't imagine they did much better for 2L summer than Chicago.

1) Have to consider their traditional clerkship placement
2) Remember not all "law firms" are NLJ250 firms (or market-paying firms) so that statement from UChicago is pretty meaningless. In fact many very desirable firms aren't NLJ250, but so are a bunch of midlaw and small law fallback type places.


We can also look back on the OCI leaks from a couple years ago and see where the firm job percentages fit, not just for uchi, but most of the t13

ahnhub
Posts: 578
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:14 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby ahnhub » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:41 pm

IAFG wrote:
ahnhub wrote: Yeah, when I saw that Chicago put 69% of c/o 2011 into firms for 2L summer (which is pretty impressive, considering), I just assumed they would kick ass when the NLJ numbers came out later. Penn students made their 2009 OCI sound just as bad as anywhere else. I can't imagine they did much better for 2L summer than Chicago.

1) Have to consider their traditional clerkship placement
2) Remember not all "law firms" are NLJ250 firms (or market-paying firms) so that statement from UChicago is pretty meaningless. In fact many very desirable firms aren't NLJ250, but so are a bunch of midlaw and small law fallback type places.


Aren't the vast majority of law firms that can afford to hire someone for the summer basically Biglaw?

User avatar
D-hops
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:48 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby D-hops » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:08 pm

ahnhub wrote:
IAFG wrote:
ahnhub wrote: Yeah, when I saw that Chicago put 69% of c/o 2011 into firms for 2L summer (which is pretty impressive, considering), I just assumed they would kick ass when the NLJ numbers came out later. Penn students made their 2009 OCI sound just as bad as anywhere else. I can't imagine they did much better for 2L summer than Chicago.

1) Have to consider their traditional clerkship placement
2) Remember not all "law firms" are NLJ250 firms (or market-paying firms) so that statement from UChicago is pretty meaningless. In fact many very desirable firms aren't NLJ250, but so are a bunch of midlaw and small law fallback type places.


Aren't the vast majority of law firms that can afford to hire someone for the summer basically Biglaw?


There are quite a few boutique (IP and some general lit) firms that hire SAs and pay market.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18422
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:13 pm

D-hops wrote:
ahnhub wrote:
IAFG wrote:
ahnhub wrote: Yeah, when I saw that Chicago put 69% of c/o 2011 into firms for 2L summer (which is pretty impressive, considering), I just assumed they would kick ass when the NLJ numbers came out later. Penn students made their 2009 OCI sound just as bad as anywhere else. I can't imagine they did much better for 2L summer than Chicago.

1) Have to consider their traditional clerkship placement
2) Remember not all "law firms" are NLJ250 firms (or market-paying firms) so that statement from UChicago is pretty meaningless. In fact many very desirable firms aren't NLJ250, but so are a bunch of midlaw and small law fallback type places.


Aren't the vast majority of law firms that can afford to hire someone for the summer basically Biglaw?


There are quite a few boutique (IP and some general lit) firms that hire SAs and pay market.


And even if they are a small portion of the market paying firms, the point is that if they hire just a few people from some schools it could make a huge difference (e.g. just 10 people from UChi going to these firms would increase their percentage by 5%).

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby IAFG » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:17 pm

D-hops wrote:
ahnhub wrote:
IAFG wrote:
ahnhub wrote: Yeah, when I saw that Chicago put 69% of c/o 2011 into firms for 2L summer (which is pretty impressive, considering), I just assumed they would kick ass when the NLJ numbers came out later. Penn students made their 2009 OCI sound just as bad as anywhere else. I can't imagine they did much better for 2L summer than Chicago.

1) Have to consider their traditional clerkship placement
2) Remember not all "law firms" are NLJ250 firms (or market-paying firms) so that statement from UChicago is pretty meaningless. In fact many very desirable firms aren't NLJ250, but so are a bunch of midlaw and small law fallback type places.


Aren't the vast majority of law firms that can afford to hire someone for the summer basically Biglaw?


There are quite a few boutique (IP and some general lit) firms that hire SAs and pay market.

There are also places that don't pay market who take summers anyway... While there may not be a ton of those jobs, it doesn't take that many to skew the numbers of relatively small populations by the relatively small percentages we are questioning here.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby 09042014 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:30 pm

Firms under about 175 aren't NLJ250. There are a decent number that pay 120K+ in smaller markets. 110K in Minneapolis > 160K NYC. Especially with U of M debt.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby romothesavior » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:31 am

JusticeHarlan wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I think the TL;DR; to this thread is T14 or bust.

Quoted for DF saying "T14."

Wow. Don't think I've ever seen that.

User avatar
D-hops
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:48 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby D-hops » Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:27 pm

romothesavior wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I think the TL;DR; to this thread is T14 or bust.

Quoted for DF saying "T14."

Wow. Don't think I've ever seen that.


Given his propensity for submitting posts with egregious typos, I am going to chalk it up to that.

chasgoose
Posts: 715
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby chasgoose » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:29 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:
TMC116 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
smokeylarue wrote:As someone who is very seriously considering NYU, can someone explain to me the NYU T-6 advantage because these numbers of the last 3 years seems to show no advantage compared to a lot of the lower T-14.

PI bias


UMich suffers from PI bias, too (at least to some degree)


I hate the PI bias rationale because while it exists to some exist it still carries an assumption that individuals self-selecting into PI could have otherwise landed big lawl jobs (true for sow, not for others). Also, PI selection bias seems to at least partially be a symptom of ITE.


This is BS... Getting a decent PI job is usually a lot harder than getting a biglaw job. I know about 20 people doing PI/gov't at NYU for their 2L summer and most of them are law review/above median types. To be honest I'm sure this is the same at every top school. The people who do PI after law school aren't usually in the bottom of their class and would probably have been able to snag a biglaw job with ease based on grades/resumes (provided they could downplay their PI interests).

One could argue that if they had participated in EIW/OCI they would have displaced others so the numbers would be the same, but I'm not convinced. At a certain class ranking, even CCN (or H, not so much YS) isn't going to save you for biglaw, which for current 1L's and future 0L's at CCN would probably be the bottom third (since the NLJ numbers also don't factor in top boutiques and clerkships). Firms would be willing to take more people with top grades. NYU gets hurt because 10% more people in the top half (and probably closer to top third) of the class do PI than at Columbia and Chicago (assuming that their PI people are also in the top of their class). If we assume even half of that 10% would have gotten biglaw w/o displacing anyone, then NYU basically has the same placement numbers as Chicago, if we were to give the whole 10% then it would be competitive w/ Columbia for that year.

User avatar
skers
Posts: 4950
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:33 am

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby skers » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:35 pm

chasgoose wrote:This is BS... Getting a decent PI job is usually a lot harder than getting a biglaw job. I know about 20 people doing PI/gov't at NYU for their 2L summer and most of them are law review/above median types. To be honest I'm sure this is the same at every top school. The people who do PI after law school aren't usually in the bottom of their class and would probably have been able to snag a biglaw job with ease based on grades/resumes (provided they could downplay their PI interests).

One could argue that if they had participated in EIW/OCI they would have displaced others so the numbers would be the same, but I'm not convinced. At a certain class ranking, even CCN (or H, not so much YS) isn't going to save you for biglaw, which for current 1L's and future 0L's at CCN would probably be the bottom third (since the NLJ numbers also don't factor in top boutiques and clerkships). Firms would be willing to take more people with top grades. NYU gets hurt because 10% more people in the top half (and probably closer to top third) of the class do PI than at Columbia and Chicago (assuming that their PI people are also in the top of their class). If we assume even half of that 10% would have gotten biglaw w/o displacing anyone, then NYU basically has the same placement numbers as Chicago, if we were to give the whole 10% then it would be competitive w/ Columbia for that year.


Why would we assume that they're all decent PI jobs just by looking at random percentages? My statement wasn't intended to just be pointed at NYU (we hear the PI bias bit thrown around at a lot of schools) as we've seen just about every school have huge increase in PI placement ITE and I'm not going to buy that a widespread increase in PI placement is due just to self-selection. It's hard to tell.
Last edited by skers on Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Bronck
Posts: 2025
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:28 pm

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby Bronck » Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:29 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:
chasgoose wrote:This is BS... Getting a decent PI job is usually a lot harder than getting a biglaw job. I know about 20 people doing PI/gov't at NYU for their 2L summer and most of them are law review/above median types. To be honest I'm sure this is the same at every top school. The people who do PI after law school aren't usually in the bottom of their class and would probably have been able to snag a biglaw job with ease based on grades/resumes (provided they could downplay their PI interests).

One could argue that if they had participated in EIW/OCI they would have displaced others so the numbers would be the same, but I'm not convinced. At a certain class ranking, even CCN (or H, not so much YS) isn't going to save you for biglaw, which for current 1L's and future 0L's at CCN would probably be the bottom third (since the NLJ numbers also don't factor in top boutiques and clerkships). Firms would be willing to take more people with top grades. NYU gets hurt because 10% more people in the top half (and probably closer to top third) of the class do PI than at Columbia and Chicago (assuming that their PI people are also in the top of their class). If we assume even half of that 10% would have gotten biglaw w/o displacing anyone, then NYU basically has the same placement numbers as Chicago, if we were to give the whole 10% then it would be competitive w/ Columbia for that year.



Why would we assume that they're all decent PI jobs just by looking at random percentages? My statement wasn't intended to just be pointed at NYU (we hear the PI bias bit thrown around at a lot of schools) as we've seen just about every school have huge increase in PI placement ITE and I'm not going to buy that a widespread increase in PI placement is due just to self-selection. It's hard to tell.


If you look at data for classes of 2008 and 2009, NYU placed roughly 10% into PI. It's only for the class of 2010 that a lot of schools began to see an increase in PI placement, and even then NYU increased at a similar rate.

User avatar
Tiago Splitter
Posts: 15515
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:20 am

Re: NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:23 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:
Why would we assume that they're all decent PI jobs just by looking at random percentages? My statement wasn't intended to just be pointed at NYU (we hear the PI bias bit thrown around at a lot of schools) as we've seen just about every school have huge increase in PI placement ITE and I'm not going to buy that a widespread increase in PI placement is due just to self-selection. It's hard to tell.


I don't think it's hard to tell at all. NYU was pretty consistently around 10% in PI before the class of 2010. I'm sure the 2011 numbers will also show an increase. The rest of the people who had been going to firms appear to have headed to government and clerkships. The only conclusion to draw is that the "self-selection" towards PI/Gov occurred after those searching for firms couldn't get jobs in private practice.

All of which isn't to say that NYU sucks, just that the economy went to shit for a couple of years and people who otherwise would have gone into firms had to find other options. But the 10% going into PI in good times and bad may very well be finding elite PI jobs.

chasgoose wrote:If we assume even half of that 10% would have gotten biglaw w/o displacing anyone, then NYU basically has the same placement numbers as Chicago, if we were to give the whole 10% then it would be competitive w/ Columbia for that year.


Kinda tough to make that assumption and assume 0% PI placement for Columbia at the same time.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests