If you do not go to a "national" school...

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laxbrah420
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby laxbrah420 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:27 pm

im from connecticut.
uconn and uga are effectively the same price.
you guys would really pick uconn over georgia because of this ties thing?

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IAFG
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:28 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:im from connecticut.
uconn and uga are effectively the same price.
you guys would really pick uconn over georgia because of this ties thing?

No one is saying that, you idiot. They're saying, don't be from CT, go to school in GA, and then expect a job in CA (and on top of that a job in GA might be a hard sell).

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laxbrah420
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby laxbrah420 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:37 pm

IAFG wrote:No one is saying that, you idiot. They're saying, don't be from CT, go to school in GA, and then expect a job in CA (and on top of that a job in GA might be a hard sell).

rad lulz wrote:Also, in many secondary markets, it will be difficult to get a job there if you are not from there or have significant ties to the region, even if you go to the regional school.

:?:

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IAFG
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:40 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:
IAFG wrote:No one is saying that, you idiot. They're saying, don't be from CT, go to school in GA, and then expect a job in CA (and on top of that a job in GA might be a hard sell).

rad lulz wrote:Also, in many secondary markets, it will be difficult to get a job there if you are not from there or have significant ties to the region, even if you go to the regional school.

:?:

That wasn't your hypo. You ARE from your target market.

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pugilistjd
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby pugilistjd » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:40 pm

IAFG wrote:You seem to hold your own bullshit in high esteem. Some markets just aren't having it, no matter how clever you think you're being.

I'm not sure why you are addressing me personally. I'm relocating to a school in a state where half of my family has lived for over a century and I have an alumni cousin who is name partner at a small firm. These aren't strongest ties in the world, but they are ties nonetheless and I wouldn't relocate without them. I was just surprised that no explanation could be given to convince a secondary-market employer that you aren't a flight risk without evoking ties. Stop and think next time before you shift into TLS herp derp mode and try to peg the special 0L snowflake.
Last edited by pugilistjd on Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

keg411
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby keg411 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:43 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
keg411 wrote:OP's advice is super 100% credited. I want to tell every 0L to stay home and go to their local state school if they can't crack the T14. Law School definitely is not the time to decide you want to live elsewhere... it's just too risky, IMO.

I do think if you go to a national school (i.e. T14) and have top grades AND are an awesome interviewer, you can get a job in a region you've never been before (I know people who cracked Boston and SF and Chicago without ties), but I think those situations are rare (minus NYC of course; you don't need ties to NYC).



I think the "you don't need ties to NYC" common wisdom isn't the full story. NYC firms were skeptical as fuck about me. I think having strong ties to an area, then going to school in that area will make NYC firms look at your ties. So if you are from CA, and went to Boalt, NYC firms will ask about it.


I'll just say that I know more than a handful of people with zero NYC ties that got NYC BigLaw offers. It's certainly possible they were asked about it and just did a good job explaining.

But even I got asked "Why NYC" and I'm from about 20 minutes outside NYC. But I didn't feel like the question made me think they were skeptical; it was just a question. I even got asked "Why NJ" in an interview with an NJ firm that was literally down the street from my house :lol:.
Last edited by keg411 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:45 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:46 pm

pugilistjd wrote:
IAFG wrote:You seem to hold your own bullshit in high esteem. Some markets just aren't having it, no matter how clever you think you're being.

I'm not sure why you are addressing me personally. I'm relocating to a school in a state where half of my family has lived for over a century and I have an alumni cousin who is name partner at a small firm. These aren't strongest ties in the world, but they are ties nonetheless and I wouldn't relocate without them. I was just surprised that no explanation could be given to convince an secondary-market employer that you aren't a flight risk without evoking ties. Stop and think next time before you shift into TLS herp derp mode and try to peg the special 0L snowflake.

Okay, you seem to hold other people's ability to bullshit in high esteem. Here's the root of the problem: the supply of qualified candidates is immense. They can give you the benefit of the doubt, or turn to the huge stack of candidates with credentials that makes them peers to you and better ties. Yes, some people do manage to BS their ways into secondaries, but it's nothing to bet six figure student loan debt on.

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flem
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby flem » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:47 pm

rad lulz wrote:
NoleMatt wrote:
NoleMatt wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Where do you want to work?


I'm flexible (I realize that's probably a poor answer) but if I had to name my first choice I would say Atlanta. With that said, I would be extremely happy in Nashville, Chapel Hill and several other southern cities.


What do you think rad? Bad idea based on my answer or not?

I know a lot about ATL and Nashville.

ATL: cares about ties, but just being from the South is generally good enough. The problem is, the market in terms of large firms is a slaughterhouse. They are obsessed with high grades, or at least were this past year.



Credited

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laxbrah420
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby laxbrah420 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:48 pm

IAFG wrote:
laxbrah420 wrote:
IAFG wrote:No one is saying that, you idiot. They're saying, don't be from CT, go to school in GA, and then expect a job in CA (and on top of that a job in GA might be a hard sell).

rad lulz wrote:Also, in many secondary markets, it will be difficult to get a job there if you are not from there or have significant ties to the region, even if you go to the regional school.

:?:

That wasn't your hypo. You ARE from your target market.

uga's target market is connecticut?

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NoleMatt
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby NoleMatt » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:49 pm

rad lulz wrote:
NoleMatt wrote:
NoleMatt wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Where do you want to work?


I'm flexible (I realize that's probably a poor answer) but if I had to name my first choice I would say Atlanta. With that said, I would be extremely happy in Nashville, Chapel Hill and several other southern cities.


What do you think rad? Bad idea based on my answer or not?

I know a lot about ATL and Nashville.

ATL: cares about ties, but just being from the South is generally good enough. The problem is, the market in terms of large firms is a slaughterhouse. They are obsessed with high grades, or at least were this past year.

Nashville: from Vanderbilt, it's easier to get a job outside Nashville than in Nashville without preexisting Nash ties.. It's super competitive because a lot of Vandy kids would entertain the idea of staying, given the option. It's possible, but very improbable. And grades aren't sufficient. Fit with individual firms is BIG. Ex. I know a dude who got a job with a Nash big firm. Dude had good grades, minority, wanted to do white collar (which was growing at the firm), had the experience to back it up, and is a pretty fratty guy (fratty firm). With good grades, it will be definitely easier for you to get a biglaw jerb in FL.

NC: not a ton of experience personally, but I know it's real parochial. One of the dudes I came up with on TLS went to NC from OOS and has been having a hell of a time.


Thanks a lot for the insight. I'd be interested to hear your take on Emory: at what price should I start considering going there (you would probably recommend not paying sticker?), what your think my prospects might be after graduating and how portable a JD from there would be.

Thanks again.
Last edited by NoleMatt on Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:50 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:
IAFG wrote:That wasn't your hypo. You ARE from your target market.

uga's target market is connecticut?

No, you personally come from CT, which makes your ties almost unassailable if CT is YOUR target market.

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IAFG
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:52 pm

keg411 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
keg411 wrote:OP's advice is super 100% credited. I want to tell every 0L to stay home and go to their local state school if they can't crack the T14. Law School definitely is not the time to decide you want to live elsewhere... it's just too risky, IMO.

I do think if you go to a national school (i.e. T14) and have top grades AND are an awesome interviewer, you can get a job in a region you've never been before (I know people who cracked Boston and SF and Chicago without ties), but I think those situations are rare (minus NYC of course; you don't need ties to NYC).



I think the "you don't need ties to NYC" common wisdom isn't the full story. NYC firms were skeptical as fuck about me. I think having strong ties to an area, then going to school in that area will make NYC firms look at your ties. So if you are from CA, and went to Boalt, NYC firms will ask about it.


I'll just say that I know more than a handful of people with zero NYC ties that got NYC BigLaw offers. It's certainly possible they were asked about it and just did a good job explaining.

But even I got asked "Why NYC" and I'm from about 20 minutes outside NYC. But I didn't feel like the question made me think they were skeptical; it was just a question. I even got asked "Why NJ" in an interview with an NJ firm that was literally down the street from my house :lol:.

It's not that you need ties to NY, it's that having super strong ties to somewhere else can be suspicious. If you're talking about fellow Mich students, pretty much all of them have already shown their willingness to uproot themselves for opportunity. DF, who has never lived outside of IL, has not shown that.

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laxbrah420
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby laxbrah420 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:52 pm

did you misread my first post? i said would you really pick uconn over georgia? right now, im leaning uga over uconn. id rather work in atl than nyc, but id rather work in stamford than macon.
is that a bad choice?

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IAFG
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:54 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:did you misread my first post? i said would you really pick uconn over georgia? right now, im leaning uga over uconn. id rather work in atl than nyc, but id rather work in stamford than macon.
is that a bad choice?

I'm totally baffled. I don't think I misread anything. You have unassailable ties to CT. Neither school is very likely to get you a city you don't have ties to, but there's no "ties" issue with going home, no matter where you go to school.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby keg411 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:58 pm

IAFG wrote:It's not that you need ties to NY, it's that having super strong ties to somewhere else can be suspicious. If you're talking about fellow Mich students, pretty much all of them have already shown their willingness to uproot themselves for opportunity. DF, who has never lived outside of IL, has not shown that.


That certainly makes sense then.

Also, I disagree with romo that WUSTL is a national or quasi-national school. And I still stand by my "T14* or state school w/$$$" stance.

*Obviously it depends on career goals, and the T14 shouldn't totally be lumped together... and there are going to be circumstances where someone is a "special snowflake" and uprooting isn't the worst thing in the world. I just think of this as good advice for the "average" 0L that asks a "where should I go" that was phrased like the original post.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:00 pm

NoleMatt wrote:Thanks a lot for the insight. I'd be interested to hear your take on Emory: at what price should I start considering going there (you would probably recommend not paying sticker?), what your think my prospects might be after graduating and how portable a JD from there would be.

I'd take out maybe $100k debt for Emory, and about the same for Vandy. Sticker isn't a great idea. It's more defensible at Vanderbilt, but I still probably wouldn't. They both give out a lot of $ though.

Just like everyone has been saying, portable to the places you have ties, won't likely open many doors outside of those places.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby moonman157 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:02 pm

I know this may be a tough question to answer, but is Boston considered a region that requires ties to crack? I'm not from there, but I love the city, and BU/BC are two of my top choices. Thanks.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby romothesavior » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:07 pm

keg411 wrote:Also, I disagree with romo that WUSTL is a national or quasi-national school. And I still stand by my "T14* or state school w/$$$" stance.

To each their own, but you really have zero evidence to back this with. NLJ 250 placement does not equal national reach. I also think the T14 line, which is a great one for determining job prospects overall, is not all that meaningful when it comes to drawing lines based on geographic reach. Cornell is no less geographically limited than Vanderbilt. Hell, I'd say Vandy's geographic reach is a lot better than some of the lower T14.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby skers » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:07 pm

moonman157 wrote:I know this may be a tough question to answer, but is Boston considered a region that requires ties to crack? I'm not from there, but I love the city, and BU/BC are two of my top choices. Thanks.


Someone else can probably answer this better, but I would assume that BU/BC would demonstrate solid ties for Boston.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:08 pm

keg411 wrote:
IAFG wrote:It's not that you need ties to NY, it's that having super strong ties to somewhere else can be suspicious. If you're talking about fellow Mich students, pretty much all of them have already shown their willingness to uproot themselves for opportunity. DF, who has never lived outside of IL, has not shown that.


That certainly makes sense then.

Also, I disagree with romo that WUSTL is a national or quasi-national school. And I still stand by my "T14* or state school w/$$$" stance.

*Obviously it depends on career goals, and the T14 shouldn't totally be lumped together... and there are going to be circumstances where someone is a "special snowflake" and uprooting isn't the worst thing in the world. I just think of this as good advice for the "average" 0L that asks a "where should I go" that was phrased like the original post.

I'd much rather go to Vanderbilt with ties than any state school in GA, FL, AL, NC, etc. I'd want money at Vanderbilt, obviously, but ya. I'd probably rather be at UT than those state schools, too.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:08 pm

moonman157 wrote:I know this may be a tough question to answer, but is Boston considered a region that requires ties to crack? I'm not from there, but I love the city, and BU/BC are two of my top choices. Thanks.

Look on the previous page.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby moonman157 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:09 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:
moonman157 wrote:I know this may be a tough question to answer, but is Boston considered a region that requires ties to crack? I'm not from there, but I love the city, and BU/BC are two of my top choices. Thanks.


Someone else can probably answer this better, but I would assume that BU/BC would demonstrate solid ties for Boston.


Ok thanks, I probably had the wrong idea of what constituted "ties."

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IAFG
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:09 pm

romothesavior wrote:Hell, I'd say Vandy's geographic reach is a lot better than some of the lower T14.

This is reeeeeally hard to say when you have no idea what self-selection looks like. How many people are trying and failing to get a market other than NY from Cornell?

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Ludo! » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:10 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:did you misread my first post? i said would you really pick uconn over georgia? right now, im leaning uga over uconn. id rather work in atl than nyc, but id rather work in stamford than macon.
is that a bad choice?


Do you have any other ties to Atlanta other than going to uga? If not, you could potentially be making a huge mistake. It's possible to end up in a kind of no-man's land where your home state wonders why you left if you wanted to work in that state and your law school's state is suspicious that you will want to go back home, and you end up not getting offers in either. It's not guaranteed that it will happen, but it's a risk to be aware of. I was lucky enough to end up in the market that my law school feeds into despite having no other ties to the state, but believe me the geography came up in every single interview in both markets and I might have been screwed if I didn't have compelling reasons why I wanted to be in my firm's market. I also had the benefit of being in the top 5%, if I had worse grades who knows what would have happened.




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