If you do not go to a "national" school...

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bne2103
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby bne2103 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:37 pm

romothesavior wrote:... then go to a reputable law school in the region in which you want to practice for a reasonable price. The end.

Not sure why this is rocket science, but it seems like a billion "Pepperdine w/$ vs. W&L vs. UF?" threads have popped up lately. Seriously people, are you pulling these schools out of a hat? Do you have no direction in life, or is it that you don't understand the nature of legal hiring, or both?


As a person who recently posted one of these threads, I'll say that I can't hear this advice enough... It's hard to hear but its what I, and perhaps most others like me, need to hear.

The situation in my personal life has me in a bit of limbo where I can't say for sure where I'll want to practice / be able to practice once that situation settles down. I guess that, if this is true, I will be putting off law school until I figure that out. In the meantime, I'll retake and try to crack the T14 for whatever thats worth. Thanks to OP and others.

rad lulz
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:55 pm

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rad lulz
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 2:58 pm

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Gail
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:24 pm

I don't get why going to the local school isn't a strong enough tie.


Like I'm really gunning for Boston Biglaw after attending the University of Iowa. What? What's the purpose of this homerism?

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johansantana21
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby johansantana21 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:27 pm

rad lulz wrote:
keg411 wrote:(minus NYC of course; you don't need ties to NYC).

NYC seemed more suspicious of outsiders this year. Maybe they got the sense they were everyone's backup. Examples I know of personally:

1. Southern guy, southern UG, southern law school (UT/Vandy), minority, good grades, multiple offers elsewhere, no NYC offers.
2. Basically the same as #1, but with WE
3. Midwestern guy, midwestern UG, midwestern T14, WE, IP, no NYC offers, Chi biglaw
4. Midwestern girl, midwestern UG, midwestern T14, WE, no NYC offers, biglaw offers elsewhere

If your resume screams another region or hints that NYC is your backup, you may have some trouble, but admittedly, it's a lot easier to break into than basically any other market.


You forgot the most important example. Your own. I know you got dat NYC dings rad bro.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:30 pm

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:33 pm

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romothesavior
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby romothesavior » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:35 pm

Gail wrote:I don't get why going to the local school isn't a strong enough tie.


Like I'm really gunning for Boston Biglaw after attending the University of Iowa. What? What's the purpose of this homerism?

There are good reasons for it, which Rad just elaborated on a little.

But even if it was completely irrational (and sometimes it is, as I learned the hard way) there is not much that can be done. Its similar to those who lament the prestige-whoring that goes on with hiring. Yeah it is kind of lame and maybe its not the best system, but it is the reality of the profession we chose. Better that people come to terms with it and understand that before going in, which is why I made this little PSA (that and boredom).

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NoleMatt
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby NoleMatt » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:35 pm

I'm from north Florida but have no interest in any Florida schools. I'm looking at applying to Emory, UGA, UNC, and Vandy, but don't have any ties to those areas. According to this argument I'm making a horrible choice, right? Because I wont be attending a T14 school and I wont have any ties to the region I end up going to school.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:36 pm

NoleMatt wrote:I'm from north Florida but have no interest in any Florida schools. I'm looking at applying to Emory, UGA, UNC, and Vandy, but don't have any ties to those areas. According to this argument I'm making a horrible choice, right? Because I wont be attending a T14 school and I wont have any ties to the region I end up going to school.

Where do you want to work?

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romothesavior
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby romothesavior » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:38 pm

NoleMatt wrote:I'm from north Florida but have no interest in any Florida schools. I'm looking at applying to Emory, UGA, UNC, and Vandy, but don't have any ties to those areas. According to this argument I'm making a horrible choice, right? Because I wont be attending a T14 school and I wont have any ties to the region I end up going to school.

Nah not terrible, but still risky. Those are decent schools with some reach. Still pretty regional but hopefully they can get you a job someplace. I'd go for cheap though, ideally to Vanderbilt since it will open by far the most doors.

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Nestico87
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Nestico87 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:39 pm

Is WUSTL considered a national or a regional school?

For example, could I go to WUSTL, do well, and then clerk for a western state supreme court or federal district court judge? i.e. clerk for the Idaho or Utah supreme court?

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Gail
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:41 pm

rad lulz wrote:Who's more likely to leave the firm before he becomes profitable, the dude from Boston, or the dude from halfway across the country?



If the percentage of likelihood is higher by .01% for the law student to split from Iowa for Boston than it is for the Iowa native, then is it really much of a difference? Neither person is getting Boston from a regional midwestern school.

That's just such an irrational way for law firms to think. Regional school is regional. Alabama grad isn't getting to Chicago even if their top 25% student has his whole little heart set on it.

I agree that people like others from their region simply because they're familiar with the names of their region though. It still seems irrational though.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby JusticeHarlan » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:42 pm

rad lulz wrote:Anecdotally, people from Boston who go to BC/BU do better with Boston biglaw than people not from Boston, though it's still achievable if you're not from Boston, obviously.

I don't know if this is really the case. I know people from the Midwest, New York, Texas, etc. who had no ties to Boston other than going to law school here, didn't spend their 1L summers here, and wound up with offers from Boston firms. They all had the grades, WE, journal, personality, etc. of course. It seems like if you have those, and go to BC/BU, you'll be fine, and if you don't, it doesn't matter where you have ties.

(Not to say that biglaw is easy to get from here, just that going to law school here seems to be sufficient ties for the firms in Boston. My own anecdotes, of course.)

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beezy08
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby beezy08 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:45 pm

This argument seems to be very geared towards Biglaw/firm jobs. What if that's not what you want? Does the whole ties thing still apply if you wanna work for the DA or PD's office (or would it apply more)? Mostly just curious.
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beachbum
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby beachbum » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:46 pm

This whole discussion of NYC becoming more cautious has me a little worried. My goal is to land in the Midwest (St. Louis/Chicago), but I was banking on NYC being a viable Plan B.

(Everything on my resume - including my internship this coming summer - is Missouri/Illinois, with the exception of my southern law school. Ruh-roh.)

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NoleMatt
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby NoleMatt » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:46 pm

rad lulz wrote:Where do you want to work?


I'm flexible (I realize that's probably a poor answer) but if I had to name my first choice I would say Atlanta. With that said, I would be extremely happy in Nashville, Chapel Hill and several other southern cities.

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romothesavior
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby romothesavior » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:46 pm

Nestico87 wrote:Is WUSTL considered a national or a regional school?

For example, could I go to WUSTL, do well, and then clerk for a western state supreme court or federal district court judge? i.e. clerk for the Idaho or Utah supreme court?

Like I said on the last page, we are quasi-national. Our grads disburse quite a bit. Of my group of friends, one is going to NYC, two are going to Florida, one to Atlanta, one to Cali, one to Boston, one to Pittsburgh, one to Texas, one to D.C. and I'm going to a secondary Midwest market, just to name a few. We place pretty broadly. No idea how we do in the markets you mentioned. I'd imagine you will have to do a lot more legwork than most.

Our biggest issue isn't national reach, its firm placement. Our big firm placement is quite poor.

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NoleMatt
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby NoleMatt » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:48 pm

romothesavior wrote:
NoleMatt wrote:I'm from north Florida but have no interest in any Florida schools. I'm looking at applying to Emory, UGA, UNC, and Vandy, but don't have any ties to those areas. According to this argument I'm making a horrible choice, right? Because I wont be attending a T14 school and I wont have any ties to the region I end up going to school.

Nah not terrible, but still risky. Those are decent schools with some reach. Still pretty regional but hopefully they can get you a job someplace. I'd go for cheap though, ideally to Vanderbilt since it will open by far the most doors.


Trust me, I would blow a goat to go to Vandy "for cheap". Unfortunately I don't think that will be in the cards with my numbers (Taking LSAT in June but 3.3 LSAC GPA, 2+ years WE, internship w/lobbying firm here in Tallahassee)

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:49 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Anecdotally, people from Boston who go to BC/BU do better with Boston biglaw than people not from Boston, though it's still achievable if you're not from Boston, obviously.

I don't know if this is really the case. I know people from the Midwest, New York, Texas, etc. who had no ties to Boston other than going to law school here, didn't spend their 1L summers here, and wound up with offers from Boston firms. They all had the grades, WE, journal, personality, etc. of course. It seems like if you have those, and go to BC/BU, you'll be fine, and if you don't, it doesn't matter where you have ties.

(Not to say that biglaw is easy to get from here, just that going to law school here seems to be sufficient ties for the firms in Boston. My own anecdotes, of course.)

No I agree with you. It's not as parochial as other places where not being from the area will all but preclude you entirely (South Carolina).

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romothesavior
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby romothesavior » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:50 pm

beezy08 wrote:This argument seems to be very geared towards Biglaw. What if that's not what you want? Does the whole ties thing still apply if you wanna work for the DA or PD's office? Mostly just curious.

From what I've seen, yes. I was just talking to a 3L who worked at a prosecutor's office during the summer who was passed up for a full time gig. The job went to the son of one of the named partner's in town. That can be the sort of thing you're up against.

Most of the people who get these jobs seem to be locals, from what I've anecdotally witnessed. My opinion may be a little skewed by the fact that I'm in one of the very most parochial markets on earth. But be wary.

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laxbrah420
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby laxbrah420 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:51 pm

so whilst interviewing in a southern market, would you recommend taking off a wall street summer internship

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:01 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:so whilst interviewing in a southern market, would you recommend taking off a wall street summer internship

No.

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NoleMatt
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby NoleMatt » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:03 pm

NoleMatt wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Where do you want to work?


I'm flexible (I realize that's probably a poor answer) but if I had to name my first choice I would say Atlanta. With that said, I would be extremely happy in Nashville, Chapel Hill and several other southern cities.


What do you think rad? Bad idea based on my answer or not?

09042014
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:20 pm

keg411 wrote:OP's advice is super 100% credited. I want to tell every 0L to stay home and go to their local state school if they can't crack the T14. Law School definitely is not the time to decide you want to live elsewhere... it's just too risky, IMO.

I do think if you go to a national school (i.e. T14) and have top grades AND are an awesome interviewer, you can get a job in a region you've never been before (I know people who cracked Boston and SF and Chicago without ties), but I think those situations are rare (minus NYC of course; you don't need ties to NYC).



I think the "you don't need ties to NYC" common wisdom isn't the full story. NYC firms were skeptical as fuck about me. I think having strong ties to an area, then going to school in that area will make NYC firms look at your ties. So if you are from CA, and went to Boalt, NYC firms will ask about it.




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