If you do not go to a "national" school...

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moneybagsphd
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby moneybagsphd » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:48 pm

romothesavior wrote:
AVBucks4239 wrote:Interview Tip #1: never, under any circumstance, take a shot at a school in that firm's region. Odds are that somebody on the hiring committee graduated from said school. Saying, "Illinois has better faculty and is higher ranked than [insert regional school]" will basically guarantee that you don't get hired.

I wholeheartedly agree. I got a lot of "Why didn't you go to SLU?" questions, especially from SLU interviewers, and that was by far the hardest question to answer during OCI. I had to give some BS answer about WUSTL being a better personal fit or something. I had to resist the urge to say "Well WUSTL is a hell of a lot better school with a hell of a lot more reach," but an answer that even hinted at SLU being inferior to WUSTL would have been inappropriate.

TBF the question is inappropriate. And it's obvious why anyone should choose WUSTL over SLU.

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acrossthelake
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby acrossthelake » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:50 pm

romothesavior wrote:
AVBucks4239 wrote:Interview Tip #1: never, under any circumstance, take a shot at a school in that firm's region. Odds are that somebody on the hiring committee graduated from said school. Saying, "Illinois has better faculty and is higher ranked than [insert regional school]" will basically guarantee that you don't get hired.

I wholeheartedly agree. I got a lot of "Why didn't you go to SLU?" questions, especially from SLU interviewers, and that was by far the hardest question to answer during OCI. I had to give some BS answer about WUSTL being a better personal fit or something. I had to resist the urge to say "Well WUSTL is a hell of a lot better school with a hell of a lot more reach," but an answer that even hinted at SLU being inferior to WUSTL would have been inappropriate.

Yeah this.

I know that top Seattle firms prefer Univ. of Washington law students over Harvard Law students. If UW>Harvard in Seattle, then I'd bet money that L&C>Illinois in Portland.

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beach_terror
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby beach_terror » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:59 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
AVBucks4239 wrote:Interview Tip #1: never, under any circumstance, take a shot at a school in that firm's region. Odds are that somebody on the hiring committee graduated from said school. Saying, "Illinois has better faculty and is higher ranked than [insert regional school]" will basically guarantee that you don't get hired.

I wholeheartedly agree. I got a lot of "Why didn't you go to SLU?" questions, especially from SLU interviewers, and that was by far the hardest question to answer during OCI. I had to give some BS answer about WUSTL being a better personal fit or something. I had to resist the urge to say "Well WUSTL is a hell of a lot better school with a hell of a lot more reach," but an answer that even hinted at SLU being inferior to WUSTL would have been inappropriate.

TBF the question is inappropriate. And it's obvious why anyone should choose WUSTL over SLU.

Even if it's obvious, there's no reason you need to take shots at lower ranked schools as a reason for going to a higher ranked school. This is just a being able to communicate with people skill, not an interview skill.

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moneybagsphd
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby moneybagsphd » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:06 pm

beach_terror wrote:Even if it's obvious, there's no reason you need to take shots at lower ranked schools as a reason for going to a higher ranked school. This is just a being able to communicate with people skill, not an interview skill.

:roll: Obviously, I understand that you have to give a diplomatic answer that doesn't disparage the interviewers alma mater.
SLU is a sub-100 school, while WUSTL is T20.

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Gail
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:33 pm

lol @ there being "good ol' boys" in the PNW.

Just the country boys going out for a Seattle brew to the internet cafe.

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IAFG
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby IAFG » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:57 pm

Gail wrote:lol @ there being "good ol' boys" in the PNW.

Just the country boys going out for a Seattle brew to the internet cafe.

Lol @ getting seattle as an outsider. Whatever you want to call it.

nouseforaname123
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby nouseforaname123 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:59 pm

Gail wrote:lol @ there being "good ol' boys" in the PNW.

Just the country boys going out for a Seattle brew to the internet cafe.


I think you took that a little bit too literally.

I should have used "local alumni network."

09042014
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby 09042014 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:21 pm

SBL wrote:
laxbrah420 wrote:
fogcue2 wrote:
-if your lucky enough to be IP, then ignore this advice, attend any T-30 you get accepted to, finish in the top 75 % of your class and you'll be fine...but everyone in your class will hate you...

Is this accurate? Do you think neuroscience would count? It's not listed as an official major but it seems pretty in-line w/ bio, chem...

I know plenty of IP kids at my "T25" who don't have jerbs



"IP secure" is a myth. It certainly helps (a significant amount) but there are more IP people looking than there are jobs.

thisishilarious
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby thisishilarious » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:31 pm

Thank you all for your candid responses. This is obviously a tough decision, and your opinions have been helpful in balancing the importance of regional affiliation with national ranking. It is clear that L&C is the obvious choice for getting a decent job in Portland; though I worry for my options outside the region should I ever want to go elsewhere as I imagine it is not so highly regarded outside the PNW. While some have suggested Illinois is an equally regional school, my impression from the professionals with whom I've spoken is that with hard work it will open more doors nationally- especially considering the MBA program, which does not exist at Lewis and Clark. Either way they're offering to pay for half, so I'll be happy.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for UW and Boston.

09042014
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby 09042014 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:35 pm

thisishilarious wrote:Thank you all for your candid responses. This is obviously a tough decision, and your opinions have been helpful in balancing the importance of regional affiliation with national ranking. It is clear that L&C is the obvious choice for getting a decent job in Portland; though I worry for my options outside the region should I ever want to go elsewhere as I imagine it is not so highly regarded outside the PNW. While some have suggested Illinois is an equally regional school, my impression from the professionals with whom I've spoken is that with hard work it will open more doors nationally- especially considering the MBA program, which does not exist at Lewis and Clark. Either way they're offering to pay for half, so I'll be happy.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for UW and Boston.


MBA programs outside of the M7 at TTT. In fact a U of I MBA alumni slept with me. That should prove how TTT it is.

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laxbrah420
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby laxbrah420 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:37 pm

are you really ugly?

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romothesavior
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby romothesavior » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:40 pm

Another reason you should go to law school in the region you want:

Once you settle down, develop a reputation in the legal community, and most importantly develop a book of business, it is hard to pick up and move as a lawyer. Not impossible, but certainly a lot harder than if you work in some non-law job. Lawyers sort of become institutions in a particular location, and they move around less than their non-attorney counterparts.*

Sure, it's not a big deal if you're just some young associate leaving a big firm to relocate. But once you've spent a decent chunk of time in a location (especially in private practice), your primary contacts are going to be in a particular place. Going to law school planning on working somewhere for a few years and thinking you can just pick up and leave is a lot tougher plan than just going to the location you want to wind up in in the first place. You make getting your first job more difficult than it has to be, AND you make getting your second job more difficult than it has to be.



*Note: I am just a 2L so obviously this is not based on my experience, but is based on conversations I've had with attorneys I've spoken to about the issue of relocation. I am just passing on the good word. It's also pretty backed up by just looking at people's bios; most attorneys jump around from job to job, but not many jump from city to city.

09042014
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby 09042014 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:55 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:are you really ugly?


Yes.

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No13baby
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby No13baby » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:14 pm

acrossthelake wrote:Yeah this.

I know that top Seattle firms prefer Univ. of Washington law students over Harvard Law students. If UW>Harvard in Seattle, then I'd bet money that L&C>Illinois in Portland.

Seattle is that insular even with ties? Fuuuuuuuuuuccckkkkkk.

de5igual
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby de5igual » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:22 pm

No13baby wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Yeah this.

I know that top Seattle firms prefer Univ. of Washington law students over Harvard Law students. If UW>Harvard in Seattle, then I'd bet money that L&C>Illinois in Portland.

Seattle is that insular even with ties? Fuuuuuuuuuuccckkkkkk.


i don't think it's necessarily that they prefer the local kids over HLS kids with ties. it's just that all the firms probably wish to keep some relationship with the law school, so a certain number of spots are reserved for these schools, regardless of the economy. i know in Atlanta, certain spots are always reserved for Emory and UGA students, even if it's to the detriment of T14/Vandy. i'd imagine something similar at Seattle where most spots are probably going to the top of the class at UW with everyone else (including HYS) battling it out for the remaining spots.

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acrossthelake
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby acrossthelake » Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:23 pm

f0bolous wrote:
No13baby wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Yeah this.

I know that top Seattle firms prefer Univ. of Washington law students over Harvard Law students. If UW>Harvard in Seattle, then I'd bet money that L&C>Illinois in Portland.

Seattle is that insular even with ties? Fuuuuuuuuuuccckkkkkk.


i don't think it's necessarily that they prefer the local kids over HLS kids with ties. it's just that all the firms probably wish to keep some relationship with the law school, so a certain number of spots are reserved for these schools, regardless of the economy. i know in Atlanta, certain spots are always reserved for Emory and UGA students, even if it's to the detriment of T14/Vandy. i'd imagine something similar at Seattle where most spots are probably going to the top of the class at UW with everyone else (including HYS) battling it out for the remaining spots.


To be fair, it's also because HLS students do a horrible job accepting offers extended.

To put numbers to it:
Note: I'm going to obscure these numbers and the firms.
In 2009, there were ~60 total bids for the 9 Seattle firms that came to Harvard OCI (this is fairly low, Ropes & Gray-Boston often nets over 70 bids by itself). There were probably a lot of duplicates involved, but I have no way of separating out individuals. The highest number of bids was 16 for one firm, however, suggesting around 16 people. After the lottery & add period, there were still ~60 interviews. There were three total callbacks at 3 firms, basically 3 of the biggest ones in Seattle. One offer was extended, and then rejected.

In 2010, there ~50 total bids, with the most for any single firm being 9, making me think there are maybe only 9 individuals. After the lottery(no adds were done, apparently), 35 interviews, with the most being 7 at one firm. After that, five callbacks were extended, among similar, though not the exact same three firms. All 5 callbacks were accepted and 3 offers were extended. All three offers were rejected.

In 2011, I had a friend who really wanted Seattle. I don't know how many callbacks were received, but my friend received one offer reallyyy long after the callback (and after expiring deadlines at other firms) and accepted a V5 firm before they ever got back to my friend.

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skers
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby skers » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:49 pm

No13baby wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Yeah this.

I know that top Seattle firms prefer Univ. of Washington law students over Harvard Law students. If UW>Harvard in Seattle, then I'd bet money that L&C>Illinois in Portland.

Seattle is that insular even with ties? Fuuuuuuuuuuccckkkkkk.


PNW is renowned for being an insular as fuck, tough market to crack for most types of entry level employment.

The thing to keep in mind with PNW is there really just aren't nearly as many jobs available as there are in other markets. It's just a really competitive market. If you're PNW or bust, then stay in the region. Otherwise, with good grades, coming from a t13, you'll still stand a solid chance come OCI (especially if you stayed in the PNW for UG).

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thexfactor
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby thexfactor » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:32 am

moneybagsphd wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
AVBucks4239 wrote:Interview Tip #1: never, under any circumstance, take a shot at a school in that firm's region. Odds are that somebody on the hiring committee graduated from said school. Saying, "Illinois has better faculty and is higher ranked than [insert regional school]" will basically guarantee that you don't get hired.

I wholeheartedly agree. I got a lot of "Why didn't you go to SLU?" questions, especially from SLU interviewers, and that was by far the hardest question to answer during OCI. I had to give some BS answer about WUSTL being a better personal fit or something. I had to resist the urge to say "Well WUSTL is a hell of a lot better school with a hell of a lot more reach," but an answer that even hinted at SLU being inferior to WUSTL would have been inappropriate.

TBF the question is inappropriate. And it's obvious why anyone should choose WUSTL over SLU.



no it isn't obvious to them.... Bryan Cave takes more SA from SLU(6) than WUSTL(5). I heard for other STL based firms, the placement rate is generally pretty equal between SLU and WUSTL grads.

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beachbum
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby beachbum » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:47 pm

thexfactor wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
AVBucks4239 wrote:Interview Tip #1: never, under any circumstance, take a shot at a school in that firm's region. Odds are that somebody on the hiring committee graduated from said school. Saying, "Illinois has better faculty and is higher ranked than [insert regional school]" will basically guarantee that you don't get hired.

I wholeheartedly agree. I got a lot of "Why didn't you go to SLU?" questions, especially from SLU interviewers, and that was by far the hardest question to answer during OCI. I had to give some BS answer about WUSTL being a better personal fit or something. I had to resist the urge to say "Well WUSTL is a hell of a lot better school with a hell of a lot more reach," but an answer that even hinted at SLU being inferior to WUSTL would have been inappropriate.

TBF the question is inappropriate. And it's obvious why anyone should choose WUSTL over SLU.



no it isn't obvious to them.... Bryan Cave takes more SA from SLU(6) than WUSTL(5). I heard for other STL based firms, the placement rate is generally pretty equal between SLU and WUSTL grads.


? I thought BC's most recent class was 2 SLU students and 5 WUSTL?

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romothesavior
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:01 pm

beachbum wrote:? I thought BC's most recent class was 2 SLU students and 5 WUSTL?

The "STL firms prefer SLU kids over WUSTL kids" argument isn't true. First, from what I've seen the big firms in town have more WUSTL lawyers, and if one year a certain firm had more SLU than WUSTL I would write it off as a fluke.

But even if it were the case that class sizes were evenly split between the two schools or even slightly in SLU's favor, you have to account for self-selection. At WUSTL, most of our top 5-10% students are going to Vault firms in NYC, D.C, Chicago, etc. Few people at SLU are getting firm jobs outside of STL, so basically the people who get firm jobs from there are the top 5% people. If STL firms are willing to dip down to our top quarter or third to hire us, but only into the top 5-10% at SLU, then it doesn't really make sense to say they prefer SLU students.

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thexfactor
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby thexfactor » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:21 pm

romothesavior wrote:
beachbum wrote:? I thought BC's most recent class was 2 SLU students and 5 WUSTL?

The "STL firms prefer SLU kids over WUSTL kids" argument isn't true. First, from what I've seen the big firms in town have more WUSTL lawyers, and if one year a certain firm had more SLU than WUSTL I would write it off as a fluke.

But even if it were the case that class sizes were evenly split between the two schools or even slightly in SLU's favor, you have to account for self-selection. At WUSTL, most of our top 5-10% students are going to Vault firms in NYC, D.C, Chicago, etc. Few people at SLU are getting firm jobs outside of STL, so basically the people who get firm jobs from there are the top 5% people. If STL firms are willing to dip down to our top quarter or third to hire us, but only into the top 5-10% at SLU, then it doesn't really make sense to say they prefer SLU students.


That placement number was from last year I think....
Romo you are right that yes if all things are equal, they would prob rather take a WUSTL grad. I think the difference is that they don't value WUSTL as much as they should. IE. They might be willling to go top 10% at SLU but might dip down to top 15% at WUSTL. In Detroit, firms might consider only top 10% of Wayne or MSU grads but they are willing to go below median to grab Umich grads.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby horrorbusiness » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:15 pm

romothesavior wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Also, in many secondary markets, it will be difficult to get a job there if you are not from there or have significant ties to the region, even if you go to the regional school.

Ah yes, I should have included this in my OP.

Relocating for law school is usually a bad idea.


Southern californian seeking biglaw is accepted into UCLA and Cornell, and highly unlikely to recieve any aid. In this case you'd suggest..?

I'm assuming Cornell, though ITT it's been considered a regional school thus far.

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acrossthelake
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:24 pm

horrorbusiness wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Also, in many secondary markets, it will be difficult to get a job there if you are not from there or have significant ties to the region, even if you go to the regional school.

Ah yes, I should have included this in my OP.

Relocating for law school is usually a bad idea.


Southern californian seeking biglaw is accepted into UCLA and Cornell, and highly unlikely to recieve any aid. In this case you'd suggest..?

I'm assuming Cornell, though ITT it's been considered a regional school thus far.


UCLA.

rad lulz
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:26 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
horrorbusiness wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Also, in many secondary markets, it will be difficult to get a job there if you are not from there or have significant ties to the region, even if you go to the regional school.

Ah yes, I should have included this in my OP.

Relocating for law school is usually a bad idea.


Southern californian seeking biglaw is accepted into UCLA and Cornell, and highly unlikely to recieve any aid. In this case you'd suggest..?

I'm assuming Cornell, though ITT it's been considered a regional school thus far.


UCLA.

I wouldn't pay sticker for UCLA. Or Cornell actually, but Cornell is far and away the better choice if you just want to get a job that will enable you to repay those loans in a timely fashion.

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JoeFish
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby JoeFish » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:27 pm

acrossthelake wrote:UCLA.


I agree, UCLA, if you want to stay in CA. But, yeah, I also agree that whether it's a good idea to go to UCLA at sticker is debatable at best.




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