If you do not go to a "national" school...

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Gail
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:54 pm

fogcue2 wrote:-if your lucky enough to be IP everyone in your class will hate you...


This is at the core of my heart. IP

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thisishilarious
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby thisishilarious » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:46 pm

I completely understand the importance of the home court advantage (pun intended), but how deep does this rule really run? To clarify:

I am from Portland, and want to eventually practice law in the pacific northwest. I have been admitted to Lewis and Clark and the University of Illinois, (wait-listed at Minnesota, still waiting for UW, Washington St. Louis, Vanderbilt, BU and BC). Is it really in my best interest to attend L&C over UI, dropping some 45 positions in the national raking? Believe me, I understand rankings aren't everything, but this strikes me as a significant margin. I have a hard time believing that I won't be able to work in Portland with a reputable class standing at a top 25 school just because it's out of town.

Any insight would be appreciated.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:52 pm

I would probably do L&C if I were you. Illinois is higher ranked but it's still not a national school. I would be surprised if it impresses anyone in Oregon, and you'd have to explain why you decided to up and leave the region for three years.

I think UW is probably the right move, though, if you get in.

This is coming from someone with no knowledge of the PNW specifically, but the general logic to apply here is that, yes, the rankings matter that little. Or, to be precise, they do matter but only within a market; go to the best ranked school in your region.

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20160810
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby 20160810 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:59 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Gail wrote:Taken together, I think that both of these posts are really good. Even if you weren't born and raised in the area, if you've always known that you wanted to live in the area, have family in the area, have been to the area many times, and went to law school there for the purpose of attaching yourself to the area professionally then the region shouldn't be so hard to tie yourself too.

Really depends on the market. I went to WUSTL to stay in STL and grew up like 2 hours away. Came here all the time when I was a kid and I'm a diehard Cardinal fan. For all intents and purposes, I feel like St. Louis is the market I have the most ties to, and I don't consider myself an "outsider." So I came here and got pretty good grades, made LR, worked here my 1L summer, and networked like a fiend. I seriously doubt anyone in my class can claim to have networked as hard as I did. And whaddya know? No biglaw offers in STL. Got offers in other cities where I have virtually no ties, but couldn't get them here. The firms here all wanted to know why I didn't want to work in Chicago.

I know this is just one data point, but seeing the experiences of my classmates, it seems like a pretty common occurrence. And again, it depends on the market, as different markets (and even firms within markets) will vary in their parochial-ness. Based on what people are saying ITT, it sounds like Boston isn't quite like this, while other markets are fiercely insular (Nashville, St. Louis, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, Raleigh, Florida, maybe Texas to a lesser degree, just to name a few off the top of my head).

I don't think what I (and others) are saying is all that far from what you're saying. The difference is one of degree. No one says it is impossible to get a job somewhere without ties or with minimal ties. Just that it is a lot harder. It will generally require better grades, better networking, better everything. As I said a few posts back, law school is already an uphill battle. Why would you make it harder on yourself by going to a regional school in a tough market where your ties suck? That's the point of this thread: to get people to think about this.

Add Sacramento to the list of very insular markets. I grew up there, and most of my interviews with Sac firms focused about 50/50 on (1.) the restaurant (which is locally famous) where I worked in high school and (2.) making sure I wouldn't rather be working in SF (a fear of Sac firms hiring Davis students).

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skers
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby skers » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:16 pm

thisishilarious wrote:I completely understand the importance of the home court advantage (pun intended), but how deep does this rule really run? To clarify:

I am from Portland, and want to eventually practice law in the pacific northwest. I have been admitted to Lewis and Clark and the University of Illinois, (wait-listed at Minnesota, still waiting for UW, Washington St. Louis, Vanderbilt, BU and BC). Is it really in my best interest to attend L&C over UI, dropping some 45 positions in the national raking? Believe me, I understand rankings aren't everything, but this strikes me as a significant margin. I have a hard time believing that I won't be able to work in Portland with a reputable class standing at a top 25 school just because it's out of town.

Any insight would be appreciated.


It's not like employers have US news rankings cheat sheets that they use in interviews or hiring decisions. Top 25 school is a pretty useless metric. Yes, some schools do have broad national reputations, but Illinois isn't one of those. If you want to work in the Pacific Northwest, I'd probably say go to UW or whichever school in the region gives you the most $$ (depending on where you were accepted).

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Flash
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Flash » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:22 pm

IAFG wrote:
romothesavior wrote:One other possible factor that can help/hurt you in a market you have no ties to is where you're actually from. If you're from rural Nebraska, trying to get a job in some secondary market is gonna be easier than if you're from Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. An insular market is going to be more skeptical if you are from a heavily targeted market than if you're from the middle of nowhere with no legal market to speak of.

If you're from rural Nebraska you can plausibly try for STL, KC, Chicago, Omaha, Sioux Falls, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Des Moines, and still NYC. Useful if you've got it.

Finally it pays off!

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Gail
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:41 pm

thisishilarious wrote:I completely understand the importance of the home court advantage (pun intended), but how deep does this rule really run? To clarify:

I am from Portland, and want to eventually practice law in the pacific northwest. I have been admitted to Lewis and Clark and the University of Illinois, (wait-listed at Minnesota, still waiting for UW, Washington St. Louis, Vanderbilt, BU and BC). Is it really in my best interest to attend L&C over UI, dropping some 45 positions in the national raking? Believe me, I understand rankings aren't everything, but this strikes me as a significant margin. I have a hard time believing that I won't be able to work in Portland with a reputable class standing at a top 25 school just because it's out of town.

Any insight would be appreciated.


A few things.

Illinois will be dropping in the rankings. Anywhere from 27 - 35. This isn't really all that important because rankings are kind of meaningless for job prospects. Your school will place where it places, look at IUB as an example.

Illinois is not in a good spot economically. I'm not sure how much better the Chicago legal market is right now, but I know the Illinois economy is going to lag for some time, and I'm bullish on the national economy overall. Outside of Chicago, Illinois secondary markets (Joliet, Peoria, Rockford, Springfield, Cairo, Eastern St Louis, Woodstock, wherever) are just as ties driven as anyother town anywhere in the US.

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20160810
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby 20160810 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:55 pm

Gail wrote:
thisishilarious wrote:I completely understand the importance of the home court advantage (pun intended), but how deep does this rule really run? To clarify:

I am from Portland, and want to eventually practice law in the pacific northwest. I have been admitted to Lewis and Clark and the University of Illinois, (wait-listed at Minnesota, still waiting for UW, Washington St. Louis, Vanderbilt, BU and BC). Is it really in my best interest to attend L&C over UI, dropping some 45 positions in the national raking? Believe me, I understand rankings aren't everything, but this strikes me as a significant margin. I have a hard time believing that I won't be able to work in Portland with a reputable class standing at a top 25 school just because it's out of town.

Any insight would be appreciated.


A few things.

Illinois will be dropping in the rankings. Anywhere from 27 - 35. This isn't really all that important because rankings are kind of meaningless for job prospects. Your school will place where it places, look at IUB as an example.

Illinois is not in a good spot economically. I'm not sure how much better the Chicago legal market is right now, but I know the Illinois economy is going to lag for some time, and I'm bullish on the national economy overall. Outside of Chicago, Illinois secondary markets (Joliet, Peoria, Rockford, Springfield, Cairo, Eastern St Louis, Woodstock, wherever) are just as ties driven as anyother town anywhere in the US.

Unless you're referring to UCLA/USC/Vandy/WUSTL/BU, there is no such thing as a "Top 25 school."

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laxbrah420
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby laxbrah420 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:57 pm

.
Last edited by laxbrah420 on Fri Apr 20, 2012 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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vissidarte27
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby vissidarte27 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:00 pm

How far do non-married significant others stretch as far as ties go?

My partner's family is in Atlanta and she grew up there, but I have no other ties to speak of. I've been accepted to Emory with a decent scholarship and I think it may be the best option for me, but I'm concerned that I don't have enough of a connection to Atlanta to be taken seriously in the job market. (And I am tangentially concerned that explaining how my same-sex relationship ties me to Atlanta will expose me to other prejudices that may adversely affect my chances of being hired, given that sexuality-based discrimination is perfectly legal.)

(Of course, I'd prefer not to work for homophobes, but if it's between that and living in a box...)

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20160810
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby 20160810 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:00 pm

laxbrah420 wrote:
fogcue2 wrote:
-if your lucky enough to be IP, then ignore this advice, attend any T-30 you get accepted to, finish in the top 75 % of your class and you'll be fine...but everyone in your class will hate you...

Is this accurate? Do you think neuroscience would count? It's not listed as an official major but it seems pretty in-line w/ bio, chem...

I know plenty of IP kids at my "T25" who don't have jerbs

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laxbrah420
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby laxbrah420 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:01 pm

are they in the bottom 25%?

nouseforaname123
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby nouseforaname123 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:06 pm

thisishilarious wrote:I completely understand the importance of the home court advantage (pun intended), but how deep does this rule really run? To clarify:

I am from Portland, and want to eventually practice law in the pacific northwest. I have been admitted to Lewis and Clark and the University of Illinois, (wait-listed at Minnesota, still waiting for UW, Washington St. Louis, Vanderbilt, BU and BC). Is it really in my best interest to attend L&C over UI, dropping some 45 positions in the national raking? Believe me, I understand rankings aren't everything, but this strikes me as a significant margin. I have a hard time believing that I won't be able to work in Portland with a reputable class standing at a top 25 school just because it's out of town.

Any insight would be appreciated.


The following was posted earlier in the thread:

--LinkRemoved--

T-14 + L&C accounted for 22 of the 28 non-exchange Summer Associates in Portland for 2011. Of the remaining 6 spots, 3 went to students attending PNW regional schools (Washington & Williamette).
Last edited by nouseforaname123 on Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:06 pm

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

thisishilarious
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby thisishilarious » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:25 pm

nouseforaname123 wrote:
The following was posted earlier in the thread:

--LinkRemoved--

T-14 + L&C accounted for 22 of the 28 non-exchange Summer Associates in Portland for 2011. Of the remaining 6 spots, 3 went to students attending PNW regional schools (Washington & Williamette).


I saw this. The question is: how many people applied for those positions and from what schools? I imagine a TON of L&C people wanted those spots and didn't get in. And how many people from schools like UI wanted to come to Portland for the summer? None. Obviously going to UI I wouldn't be as competitive as say, someone from Yale, but I can't imagine not being as competitive as someone from L&C. Especially with a decent class standing and significant ties to the city including owning a house, etc.

I think people are overlooking the value firms place on people with different perspectives. Often those attending schools outside a given region can appear more attractive than those more homogenous with other applicants from the "go-to" regional school. This is based on my personal experience with several large law firms throughout the west coast.

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Gail
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:31 pm

thisishilarious wrote:I think people are overlooking the value firms place on people with different perspectives. Often those attending schools outside a given region can appear more attractive than those more homogenous with other applicants from the "go-to" regional school. This is based on my personal experience with several large law firms throughout the west coast.


I don't want to be mean, but...

I really don't think that's the case at all, actually. Hiring partners probably don't look at it that way. And besides, a different perspective? A law school in Illinois is going to teach literally the same stuff as a law school in Oregon. It's not a question of perspective, it's a question of network. Urbana-Champaign doesn't have a network in the PNW.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:32 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

thisishilarious
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby thisishilarious » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:39 pm

rad lulz wrote:The do like people from the non-flagship. But generally, it's people with ties who go to better, regional school. People with, say, FL ties who go to UGA and then try to come back get asked really uncomfortable questions about why they went to UGA when FL is just as good. It makes you look like a flight risk. FL firms jump at the dude with FL ties who went to Vandy, however.


This makes a lot of sense to me. However, in my case it's not tough to explain: UI has a much more impressive faculty, is a higher ranked school, and most importantly for me, has an MBA program. If you can't explain your reasons for going to a better school in a different region, you're probably not a very convincing person and should consider a different profession. I'm kidding of course, but seriously.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby cinephile » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:50 pm

thisishilarious wrote:
rad lulz wrote:The do like people from the non-flagship. But generally, it's people with ties who go to better, regional school. People with, say, FL ties who go to UGA and then try to come back get asked really uncomfortable questions about why they went to UGA when FL is just as good. It makes you look like a flight risk. FL firms jump at the dude with FL ties who went to Vandy, however.


This makes a lot of sense to me. However, in my case it's not tough to explain: UI has a much more impressive faculty, is a higher ranked school, and most importantly for me, has an MBA program. If you can't explain your reasons for going to a better school in a different region, you're probably not a very convincing person and should consider a different profession. I'm kidding of course, but seriously.


But if your interviewer is an alum of L&C, how does it sound to them to say UIUC is high ranked with more "impressive" faculty? The dual MBA program sounds legit, but there are tons of schools that do that, probably a local school does that too. I mean, the choice is yours, go where you want. But be prepared for the reality of what it's like when you try to go back.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby nouseforaname123 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:07 pm

thisishilarious wrote:I think people are overlooking the value firms place on people with different perspectives. Often those attending schools outside a given region can appear more attractive than those more homogenous with other applicants from the "go-to" regional school. This is based on my personal experience with several large law firms throughout the west coast.


While firms probably do value "educational" diversity up to a certain point, I don't think it is enough to justify attending a regional law school in a different part of the country over a regional school that is clearly feeding the market you want to get into.

Do you believe that there wasn't a law student with good academic standing from Portland at a school like UI/IUB/WUSTL/Emory/Wake that didn't apply to those firms?

thisishilarious wrote:This makes a lot of sense to me. However, in my case it's not tough to explain: UI has a much more impressive faculty, is a higher ranked school, and most importantly for me, has an MBA program.


LOL @ law firms giving a shit about any of those things.

Here's the problem with what you want to do: You have no trump card. You have no T-14 prestige and you don't get the benefit of the local good ole boy network that wants to take care of its school.

And no, you aren't going to bullshit your way through a callback interview. The lawyers who will interview you have very strong bullshit detectors.

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skers
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby skers » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:19 pm

thisishilarious wrote:
rad lulz wrote:The do like people from the non-flagship. But generally, it's people with ties who go to better, regional school. People with, say, FL ties who go to UGA and then try to come back get asked really uncomfortable questions about why they went to UGA when FL is just as good. It makes you look like a flight risk. FL firms jump at the dude with FL ties who went to Vandy, however.


This makes a lot of sense to me. However, in my case it's not tough to explain: UI has a much more impressive faculty, is a higher ranked school, and most importantly for me, has an MBA program. If you can't explain your reasons for going to a better school in a different region, you're probably not a very convincing person and should consider a different profession. I'm kidding of course, but seriously.


What's the point in asking advice if you're just going to ignore it and do whatever you can to justify the choice you've already made? If you want to go outside the PNW for school, cool, it appears that you have your reasons. Just know that there isn't a single hiring committee that is going to be squirting over UI's ranking and you haven't really given any benefit you get from going to UIUC given the state of legal hiring at the moment and the general difficulty in getting jobs in the PNW for anyone, ties or not. Are you getting any money from UIUC?

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Ludo!
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Ludo! » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:35 pm

I go to Illinois, dear god don't go to Illinois over L&C if you know for sure you want to go back to Portland. It's probably possible, especially if you have good grades, but why would you take such an unnecessary risk? What if you end up below median. Have you ever been to places in Illinois besides Chicago? Would you be happy with a life of shitlaw in Decatur?

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romothesavior
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby romothesavior » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:38 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:I go to Illinois, dear god don't go to Illinois over L&C if you know for sure you want to go back to Portland. It's probably possible, especially if you have good grades, but why would you take such an unnecessary risk? What if you end up below median. Have you ever been to places in Illinois besides Chicago? Would you be happy with a life of shitlaw in Decatur?

As someone who has spent a considerable amount of time in Decatur, let me tell you that the answer to this question is objectively no. For everyone. In all circumstances.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby AVBucks4239 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:41 pm

thisishilarious wrote:
rad lulz wrote:The do like people from the non-flagship. But generally, it's people with ties who go to better, regional school. People with, say, FL ties who go to UGA and then try to come back get asked really uncomfortable questions about why they went to UGA when FL is just as good. It makes you look like a flight risk. FL firms jump at the dude with FL ties who went to Vandy, however.


This makes a lot of sense to me. However, in my case it's not tough to explain: UI has a much more impressive faculty, is a higher ranked school, and most importantly for me, has an MBA program. If you can't explain your reasons for going to a better school in a different region, you're probably not a very convincing person and should consider a different profession. I'm kidding of course, but seriously.

Interview Tip #1: never, under any circumstance, take a shot at a school in that firm's region. Odds are that somebody on the hiring committee graduated from said school. Saying, "Illinois has better faculty and is higher ranked than [insert regional school]" will basically guarantee that you don't get hired.

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romothesavior
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby romothesavior » Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:45 pm

AVBucks4239 wrote:Interview Tip #1: never, under any circumstance, take a shot at a school in that firm's region. Odds are that somebody on the hiring committee graduated from said school. Saying, "Illinois has better faculty and is higher ranked than [insert regional school]" will basically guarantee that you don't get hired.

I wholeheartedly agree. I got a lot of "Why didn't you go to SLU?" questions, especially from SLU interviewers, and that was by far the hardest question to answer during OCI. I had to give some BS answer about WUSTL being a better personal fit or something. I had to resist the urge to say "Well WUSTL is a hell of a lot better school with a hell of a lot more reach," but an answer that even hinted at SLU being inferior to WUSTL would have been inappropriate.




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