If you do not go to a "national" school...

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Ludo!
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Ludo! » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:03 pm

Gail wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:
Gail wrote:lax:

as with everything on TLS, take advice with a grain of salt (mine included). being a law student seems like a race to see who can be the most anal-retentive human being on the planet. at either UGA or uconn you'll probably get a job. it might only pay 45k to 50k a year to start, but you'll probably get a job as long as you're not in the bottom third or fourth of your class.


That's a pretty big "as long as" no?


better chance of being median.


Still not chances I would be willing to take. And if I did I would want to make sure it was in an area I had ties to.

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Gail
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:11 pm

romothesavior wrote:I was somewhat with you until that last line. But no, it is not a marginal difference, and I could find you an army of law students, recent grads, CSO employees, and hiring folks who would disagree with you. It is a bigger hurdle in interviews, and requires better grades than the hometown students.



romo, i don't mean any disrespect. i really. really don't. and i understand your position and take your statement with great weight.


that said. my anecdotal evidence has been different. i realize you have more experience with it, but when speaking to some recent grads, i expected to hear almost nothing but complete devastation. that wasn't what i heard at all. I even asked about the homerism. it was asked in every interview, more than once, but just because a question is asked doesn't mean it is the criterion. i think it's reasonable to say that you'll need better grades than your counterparts after the top 10% at UGA, but you'll not be precluded from the job.

honestly, your options out of law school seem to be pretty much the same outside of the top 20 up to the rest of tier 1.

the lines only get blurry at the margins between biglaw/gov/clerk > job > no job. That's the definition of marginal for me.


Honestly. I don't think that you won't be precluded from every job just because you're not a homer. Not even in the most parochial markets. There will be other more significant factors that you could have controlled. Not networking, not getting the best grades, interviewing poorly. You'll be precluded from some jobs because others will be more attractive, but not every job.


If you land 45k with minimal debt, you could have done much, much worse in life. This was a really bad generation to be born into. It's not because you're a law student, it's because you were born after 1980.

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Gail
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:13 pm

Ludovico Technique wrote:
Still not chances I would be willing to take. And if I did I would want to make sure it was in an area I had ties to.


But you did take that chance in one of the most competitive legal markets in the country during it's lowest point in the market.

Cali resident with biglaw from UIUC.

Top 5%, but you didn't know that going into it.

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Ludo!
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Ludo! » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:16 pm

Gail wrote:
Ludovico Technique wrote:
Still not chances I would be willing to take. And if I did I would want to make sure it was in an area I had ties to.


But you did take that chance in one of the most competitive legal markets in the country during it's lowest point in the market.

Cali resident with biglaw from UIUC.

Top 5%, but you didn't know that going into it.


Yeah because I didn't find TLS until it was too late. I got lucky but it doesn't mean it was a good idea.

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romothesavior
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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby romothesavior » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:19 pm

One other possible factor that can help/hurt you in a market you have no ties to is where you're actually from. If you're from rural Nebraska, trying to get a job in some secondary market is gonna be easier than if you're from Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. An insular market is going to be more skeptical if you are from a heavily targeted market than if you're from the middle of nowhere with no legal market to speak of.

My OP was a general rule and I'm sure there are exceptions if people want to nitpick. And again, top 5-10% from a reputable school will have lots of geographic opportunities. But you better damn well recognize that if you pick some school halfway across the country in a region you have no ties to, you are putting yourself in a hole for both the new market you're targeting and the old market you just left. It can be overcome, sure, but law school is already such a risk as it is that I have to question why you'd make it even riskier.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:22 pm

Gail wrote:
romothesavior wrote:I was somewhat with you until that last line. But no, it is not a marginal difference, and I could find you an army of law students, recent grads, CSO employees, and hiring folks who would disagree with you. It is a bigger hurdle in interviews, and requires better grades than the hometown students.



romo, i don't mean any disrespect. i really. really don't. and i understand your position and take your statement with great weight.


that said. my anecdotal evidence has been different. i realize you have more experience with it, but when speaking to some recent grads, i expected to hear almost nothing but complete devastation. that wasn't what i heard at all. I even asked about the homerism. it was asked in every interview, more than once, but just because a question is asked doesn't mean it is the criterion. i think it's reasonable to say that you'll need better grades than your counterparts after the top 10% at UGA, but you'll not be precluded from the job.

honestly, your options out of law school seem to be pretty much the same outside of the top 20 up to the rest of tier 1.

the lines only get blurry at the margins between biglaw/gov/clerk > job > no job. That's the definition of marginal for me.


Honestly. I don't think that you won't be precluded from every job just because you're not a homer. Not even in the most parochial markets. There will be other more significant factors that you could have controlled. Not networking, not getting the best grades, interviewing poorly. You'll be precluded from some jobs because others will be more attractive, but not every job.


If you land 45k with minimal debt, you could have done much, much worse in life. This was a really bad generation to be born into. It's not because you're a law student, it's because you were born after 1980.

You're basically proving his point when you say an out-of-stater has to (1) get better grades than people in-state and (2) work harder to network.

We aren't saying that it's impossible to get a job if you have no ties, we are just saying it's harder. As I said in my last post, in this type of legal market, you have to be very careful when you knowingly take a risk that puts you at an inherent disadvantage to a lot of your peers.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:23 pm

romothesavior wrote:One other possible factor that can help/hurt you in a market you have no ties to is where you're actually from. If you're from rural Nebraska, trying to get a job in some secondary market is gonna be easier than if you're from Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. An insular market is going to be more skeptical if you are from a heavily targeted market than if you're from the middle of nowhere with no legal market to speak of.

If you're from rural Nebraska you can plausibly try for STL, KC, Chicago, Omaha, Sioux Falls, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Des Moines, and still NYC. Useful if you've got it.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby romothesavior » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:27 pm

IAFG wrote:
romothesavior wrote:One other possible factor that can help/hurt you in a market you have no ties to is where you're actually from. If you're from rural Nebraska, trying to get a job in some secondary market is gonna be easier than if you're from Chicago, New York, Boston, etc. An insular market is going to be more skeptical if you are from a heavily targeted market than if you're from the middle of nowhere with no legal market to speak of.

If you're from rural Nebraska you can plausibly try for STL, KC, Chicago, Omaha, Sioux Falls, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Des Moines, and still NYC. Useful if you've got it.

Yeah its like simultaneously a pro and a con. I am from the rural Midwest and was able to find some success in multiple secondaries. But if I had bad grades, it would have sucked not having a true hometown market.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:47 pm

AVBucks4239 wrote:You're basically proving his point when you say an out-of-stater has to (1) get better grades than people in-state and (2) work harder to network.

We aren't saying that it's impossible to get a job if you have no ties, we are just saying it's harder. As I said in my last post, in this type of legal market, you have to be very careful when you knowingly take a risk that puts you at an inherent disadvantage to a lot of your peers.


We agree then. I just think it's a little less damaging than others do. On TLS harder comes across as not impossible, but so close to it that you might as well forget it.

It's a difference in how large you think the margins are. Internal law school hierarchies seem to be broken into broad bands.


Top 25%, are probably OK, but have inherent risk for lack of being the top students. In a parochial market, as Grizz rad lulz coined it, those without ties after the top 24% are vulnerable to being seen as outsiders and are probably interchangeable with those with ties but at the top 26%

My position is that it's probably a small marginal difference. Others are implying that it's a larger marginal difference. I'm sure this changes for the market in question. I'll concede that the south is going to be closer to an overlap that stretches into the top 22%


Larger point is that other things matter more than where you have ties. It shouldn't make you take a much larger amount of debt just to stay in your home market.


EDIT: Then again. This is really a mechanical view of things and ties aren't in a vacuum. Some people have strong ties to a region, but not a state and they'll fight for spots at firms with people who have weaker ties, but to the specific state in question.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:52 pm

Gail wrote:
AVBucks4239 wrote:You're basically proving his point when you say an out-of-stater has to (1) get better grades than people in-state and (2) work harder to network.

We aren't saying that it's impossible to get a job if you have no ties, we are just saying it's harder. As I said in my last post, in this type of legal market, you have to be very careful when you knowingly take a risk that puts you at an inherent disadvantage to a lot of your peers.


We agree then. I just think it's a little less damaging than others do. On TLS harder comes across as not impossible, but so close to it that you might as well forget it.

It's a difference in how large you think the margins are. Internal law school hierarchies seem to be broken into broad bands.


Top 25%, are probably OK, but have inherent risk for lack of being the top students. In a parochial market, as Grizz rad lulz coined it, those without ties after the top 24% are vulnerable to being seen as outsiders and are probably interchangeable with those with ties but at the top 26%

My position is that it's probably a small marginal difference. Others are implying that it's a larger marginal difference. I'm sure this changes for the market in question. I'll concede that the south is going to be closer to an overlap that stretches into the top 22%


Larger point is that other things matter more than where you have ties. It shouldn't make you take a much larger amount of debt just to stay in your home market.

If you're literally talking about going to your school's home market, i agree with you to a point; it's not impossible. If you're talking about trying to be from CT, attend UGa and then get a job in Boston, you're in a lot more trouble.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:06 pm

IAFG wrote:If you're literally talking about going to your school's home market, i agree with you to a point; it's not impossible. If you're talking about trying to be from CT, attend UGa and then get a job in Boston, you're in a lot more trouble.


Oh no. I meant that if he's from CT and goes to Georgia, the two states that he'll land a job in are either Connecticut or Georgia. Any other state shouldn't be considered.


And I think, with the assumption that he does have decent grades, the job market won't be quite as hard in Georgia as TLS makes it out to be.

Obviously the caution that you have a small probability of making those top grades stands.

A lot of qualifiers, but that's life.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:09 pm

Gail wrote:
IAFG wrote:If you're literally talking about going to your school's home market, i agree with you to a point; it's not impossible. If you're talking about trying to be from CT, attend UGa and then get a job in Boston, you're in a lot more trouble.


Oh no. I meant that if he's from CT and goes to Georgia, the two states that he'll land a job in are either Connecticut or Georgia. Any other state shouldn't be considered.


And I think, with the assumption that he does have decent grades, the job market won't be quite as hard in Georgia as TLS makes it out to be.

Obviously the caution that you have a small probability of making those top grades stands.

A lot of qualifiers, but that's life.

Well TLSers really only consider it a "job" if it's six figures and is at a NALP firm, so I think a lot of talking past each other goes on.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby splitbrain » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:15 pm

Just saying thank you to TLS because that was definitely not my mentality before this cycle.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby superhands » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:23 pm

romothesavior wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Also, in many secondary markets, it will be difficult to get a job there if you are not from there or have significant ties to the region, even if you go to the regional school.

Ah yes, I should have included this in my OP.

Relocating for law school is usually a bad idea. Relocating for law school to go to a mediocre T2/3 school in order to break into some hyper-parochial market? Just awful.


Shhh. Don't let the out-of-state kids at my regional school know. They are subsidizing my in-state tuition.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:26 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:36 pm

rad lulz wrote:I don't think that's what I'm saying at all. What does this even mean.


Alright. RC fail. I thought what you were saying is that you're up the creek for being at a regional school without being from the region. Whether you're in these ranges or not.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:46 pm

Gail wrote:
rad lulz wrote:I don't think that's what I'm saying at all. What does this even mean.


Alright. RC fail. I thought what you were saying is that you're up the creek for being at a regional school without being from the region. Whether you're in these ranges or not.

Not what I'm saying. But you're gonna have a much harder time.

Just as an example, I knew a dude who graded onto LR at UF. Yeah, the market sucks, but it's not that bad for LR UF people. Got one offer from a hail mary in the spring. Blames it directly on being from OOS.

It's not like tacking on percentages to your GPA, because legal hiring doesn't work that way, especially not in non-biglaw hiring. After you miss that biglaw boat, grades matter so much less, and it's just a morass of random people. Lawyers like people whom they know, people they can relate to, people who they've had shared experiences with. Small firms especially don't want to hire someone who they don't think has staying power. And as Romo said, the bias is in government too. So yeah, you might meet the right people as an OOS dude in a parochial region get employed, whatever, but the people who are from there already have a big 'ol head start.

The only place I can think of where being OOS will all but preclude you from getting hired is probably SC. Combination of rampant homerism, hilariously depressed market, and the ultimate good 'ol boy network. From the people I know there, the small firms just basically hire people's kids who they know and whatnot.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby 20160810 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:42 pm

A corollary to this: Lawyers usually have pretty OK bullshit detectors, so unless you can do it plausibly, don't fake ties in your cover letters. "I have a couple friends in Des Moines and I've heard it's a killer spot" won't cut it.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:54 pm

Another corollary: If your options are all regional schools, then don't go to law school until you figure out where you'd like to live afterward. If you really don't know whether you'd rather live in Maine or Texas or Mississippi or Kentucky or New Jersey, then go live your life for a few years, because you aren't ready to make a six-figure financial commitment.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:31 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Another corollary: If your options are all regional schools, then don't go to law school until you figure out where you'd like to live afterward. If you really don't know whether you'd rather live in Maine or Texas or Mississippi or Kentucky or New Jersey, then go live your life for a few years, because you aren't ready to make a six-figure financial commitment.


SBL wrote:A corollary to this: Lawyers usually have pretty OK bullshit detectors, so unless you can do it plausibly, don't fake ties in your cover letters. "I have a couple friends in Des Moines and I've heard it's a killer spot" won't cut it.


Taken together, I think that both of these posts are really good. Even if you weren't born and raised in the area, if you've always known that you wanted to live in the area, have family in the area, have been to the area many times, and went to law school there for the purpose of attaching yourself to the area professionally then the region shouldn't be so hard to tie yourself too.

If it just happens to be the place that you go to law school, it would seem harder to sell that. Though I still think that three years of living should qualify you to know enough about the area that others can assume you'd want to stay.


Going to school in one area away from your home in another while trying to get a job in a third separate place without ties seems really hard to me though.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby IAFG » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:34 pm

Gail, bare in mind, OCI is after 1 year of living there, not 3.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby Gail » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:40 pm

IAFG wrote:Gail, bare in mind, OCI is after 1 year of living there, not 3.


I know. But OCI is about biglaw, for the most part, who might not care as much, though they still may care. I was more referencing the smaller firms that will care more about ties and aren't going to be hiring until later on.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:41 pm

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby romothesavior » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:43 pm

Gail wrote:Taken together, I think that both of these posts are really good. Even if you weren't born and raised in the area, if you've always known that you wanted to live in the area, have family in the area, have been to the area many times, and went to law school there for the purpose of attaching yourself to the area professionally then the region shouldn't be so hard to tie yourself too.

Really depends on the market. I went to WUSTL to stay in STL and grew up like 2 hours away. Came here all the time when I was a kid and I'm a diehard Cardinal fan. For all intents and purposes, I feel like St. Louis is the market I have the most ties to, and I don't consider myself an "outsider." So I came here and got pretty good grades, made LR, worked here my 1L summer, and networked like a fiend. I seriously doubt anyone in my class can claim to have networked as hard as I did. And whaddya know? No biglaw offers in STL. Got offers in other cities where I have virtually no ties, but couldn't get them here. The firms here all wanted to know why I didn't want to work in Chicago.

I know this is just one data point, but seeing the experiences of my classmates, it seems like a pretty common occurrence. And again, it depends on the market, as different markets (and even firms within markets) will vary in their parochial-ness. Based on what people are saying ITT, it sounds like Boston isn't quite like this, while other markets are fiercely insular (Nashville, St. Louis, Cincinnati, Milwaukee, Raleigh, Florida, maybe Texas to a lesser degree, just to name a few off the top of my head).

I don't think what I (and others) are saying is all that far from what you're saying. The difference is one of degree. No one says it is impossible to get a job somewhere without ties or with minimal ties. Just that it is a lot harder. It will generally require better grades, better networking, better everything. As I said a few posts back, law school is already an uphill battle. Why would you make it harder on yourself by going to a regional school in a tough market where your ties suck? That's the point of this thread: to get people to think about this.

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Re: If you do not go to a "national" school...

Postby fogcue2 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:50 pm

Not to add to the exceptions too much (I don't want to convince anyone to go away for law school and then come back unless you have to. I'm in that situation and have had to work much harder than classmates at the same level, but should end up ok), but I've heard from some partners that if you can justify in an interview you'll be ok.

-examples, a T-30 outside the region without a comparable school in the region (Most firms in Vegas aren't looking to heavily at UNLV, and T-30's with ties tend to get interviews and offers in Denver, Phoenix, Portland, Seattle, Miami, Kansas City, San Diego, etc.

-Also, if you choose a T-30 with a large scholarship over sticker price at the local T-30 or T1 (and they wouldn't budge on money), explain that in an interview and the partners that I have talked to say that with the price of Law School today that's a justified reason. Ditto, if you have other justified reasons that you can sell in an interview (this does not mean going somewhere because you read in Newsweek that they are #2 in Bird Law, that makes you look like an idiot).

-Last a few non-T-14's do have slightly stronger alumni that can help get you back to where your from. From what I've heard (BYU if you are part of the dominant religion, and Notre Dame seem to be a little less regional if you are good at networking with alums)

-Again these are things that can justify leaving if you plan to come back to where you have ties. If you live in Chicago and going to GW and deciding that you want to work in LA, that's still going to be a pretty uphill sale and probably not the best life choice

-if your lucky enough to be IP, then ignore this advice, attend any T-30 you get accepted to, finish in the top 75 % of your class and you'll be fine...but everyone in your class will hate you...




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