Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

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Michigan or UCLA?

Michigan
19
59%
UCLA
12
38%
Michigan, but only if you can negotiate substantial merit aid
1
3%
 
Total votes: 32

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xwing_redleader
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Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby xwing_redleader » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:31 pm

Let's assume I'll pay sticker at both schools, although I should expect some need aid from both. Because of the low cost of living in Michigan, overall cost differences at sticker seem negligible.

These are some important factors to consider:
- I'd like to work in California, preferably So-Cal.
- I'm committed to public interest work, although I'm unsure if I'd like to start that work right out of law school. I'm interested in the possibility of a judicial clerkship/biglaw for the first years out.
- Family, friends, significant other, etc. are all in So-Cal.

Mich Pros:
- Its class-run clinical programs seem to outmatch UCLA's, especially so in public interest work.
- Its LRAP program seems more lenient than UCLA's
- Being at Michigan might open more doors in this economy, especially if I'm not planning to do public interest work right out of the gate.
- Living away from So-Cal for a while, which I've always wanted to do.
- Being able to say I went to Michigan for law school.

UCLA Pros:
- Really good public interest placement, stronger than Michigan's (though perhaps that's self-selection)
- Wider variety of public-interest courses
- Close support of family, friends, significant other, etc. (I value this a lot)
- The best school in the area I'd like to make a career.
- The comfort of being somewhere I already know, not having to worry about living adjustments, etc.

I love the idea of getting out of my comfort zone and attending Mich, but it seems like I have a lot more to benefit from by attending UCLA. I feel like I fit into the atmosphere at both, so I'm less concerned about which one I will be happy at. It's more a consideration of which one is best for my future.

The central issue:
- Can Michigan offer me anything substantial enough to outweigh the fact that UCLA is located where I want to work?
- Are any factors I failed to consider?

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L’Étranger
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby L’Étranger » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:42 pm

xwing_redleader wrote:- I'd like to work in California, preferably So-Cal.


This was all I read, and based on it -> UCLA is the way to go.

ahnhub
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby ahnhub » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:59 pm

You sound like you're considering law firm work initially, even though you want to do PI. How confident are you in your ability to go out, hustle and find a job on your own, if on-campus interviews don't snag you an offer?

A significantly higher percentage of Michigan 2Ls are going to come out of OCI with a biglaw offer--somewhere on the order of 60%+ of the class (maybe more). A 2L at UCLA told me OCI is improving slowly, but you still need to be top quarter to be confident in your chances, and at least top 1/2 to even have a shot.

Outside of that, if you want to PI or clerkship in SoCal I think UCLA probably has Michigan beat out. And if the only Biglaw you'd consider is SoCal Biglaw, IMO it's a wash.

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xwing_redleader
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby xwing_redleader » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:12 am

ahnhub wrote:You sound like you're considering law firm work initially, even though you want to do PI. How confident are you in your ability to go out, hustle and find a job on your own, if on-campus interviews don't snag you an offer?

A significantly higher percentage of Michigan 2Ls are going to come out of OCI with a biglaw offer--somewhere on the order of 60%+ of the class (maybe more). A 2L at UCLA told me OCI is improving slowly, but you still need to be top quarter to be confident in your chances, and at least top 1/2 to even have a shot.

Outside of that, if you want to PI or clerkship in SoCal I think UCLA probably has Michigan beat out. And if the only Biglaw you'd consider is SoCal Biglaw, IMO it's a wash.


I'd like to believe that I could hustle my way into biglaw, but I imagine most people would like to believe that. With Michigan's placement numbers, would it be easier to secure biglaw at Mich even considering that I'd have to hustle my way into LA from 2,000 miles away?

All that said, if I'm offered a great PI gig out the gate, I might give that priority over biglaw anyway.

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quiver
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby quiver » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:51 am

If both sticker I'd say Mich. You have all of the pros of going to Mich with all the ties to the area you want to work. Mich's LRAP is among the best (since you want to do PI), they have better overall firm placement (although I'm not sure how their socal firm placement compares), and they are excellent in the clerkship department. That said, I'm wondering how you got into Mich without any $ at all at UCLA. If UCLA threw some money at you I think the two are basically equal (depending on the amount).

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padawanphil
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby padawanphil » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:51 am

Retake?

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dproduct
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby dproduct » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:07 am

Did you go to ugrad at UCLA/USC/LMU etc.?

Michigan gives you better BigLaw chances. If you have significant ties to the LA market, Michigan will increase your odds of landing SoCal BigLaw at OCI.

Look at it like this: UCLA gives you a better chance at work (somewhere/somehow) in SoCal.
Michigan gives you a better chance at the BEST job in the SoCal.

FWIW: I have friends at Mich/UVA who went to UCLA and they all had multiple offers from LA firms and did their summer internships here. They were both slightly above median, but having gone to ugrad in LA made the LA Firms really interested in them.

If both are Sticker, go to Michigan. It gives you the best chances at paying off your loans and securing a top job.

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xwing_redleader
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby xwing_redleader » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:13 am

dproduct wrote:Did you go to ugrad at UCLA/USC/LMU etc.?

Michigan gives you better BigLaw chances. If you have significant ties to the LA market, Michigan will increase your odds of landing SoCal BigLaw at OCI.

Look at like this: UCLA gives you a better chance at work (somewhere/somehow) in SoCal.
Michigan gives you a better chance at the BEST job in the SoCal.

FWIW: I have friends at Mich/UVA who went to UCLA and they all had multiple offers from LA firms and did their summer internships here. They were both slightly above median, but having gone to ugrad in LA made the LA Firms really interested in them.

If both are Sticker, go to Michigan. It gives you the best chances at paying off your loans and securing a top job.


I actually went to one of those three, and was born and raised here in LA, so that's a big yes. Would that be considered significant ties?

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dproduct
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby dproduct » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:17 am

xwing_redleader wrote:
dproduct wrote:Did you go to ugrad at UCLA/USC/LMU etc.?

Michigan gives you better BigLaw chances. If you have significant ties to the LA market, Michigan will increase your odds of landing SoCal BigLaw at OCI.

Look at like this: UCLA gives you a better chance at work (somewhere/somehow) in SoCal.
Michigan gives you a better chance at the BEST job in the SoCal.

FWIW: I have friends at Mich/UVA who went to UCLA and they all had multiple offers from LA firms and did their summer internships here. They were both slightly above median, but having gone to ugrad in LA made the LA Firms really interested in them.

If both are Sticker, go to Michigan. It gives you the best chances at paying off your loans and securing a top job.


I actually went to one of those three, and was born and raised here in LA, so that's a big yes. Would that be considered significant ties?


Precisely. Actually you have: ugrad in LA, family base, (Permanent Address even? Put that on your resume when you hand it out to LA firms.) That is exactly what ties are. Michigan is the safer bet. It has national prestige, has strong placement and from what I can gather, a really great place to spend 3 years.

Michigan.

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xwing_redleader
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby xwing_redleader » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:20 am

quiver wrote:If both sticker I'd say Mich. You have all of the pros of going to Mich with all the ties to the area you want to work. Mich's LRAP is among the best (since you want to do PI), they have better overall firm placement (although I'm not sure how their socal firm placement compares), and they are excellent in the clerkship department. That said, I'm wondering how you got into Mich without any $ at all at UCLA. If UCLA threw some money at you I think the two are basically equal (depending on the amount).


8) I was a reach at both schools, so I assume that's why I was offered no scholly at either. That said, I'm definitely planning to bring up Michigan when I begin negotiating my offer from UCLA. I come from a low-income background, so CoA is going to have to play a factor in all this.

ahnhub
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby ahnhub » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:24 am

xwing_redleader wrote: I'd like to believe that I could hustle my way into biglaw, but I imagine most people would like to believe that. With Michigan's placement numbers, would it be easier to secure biglaw at Mich even considering that I'd have to hustle my way into LA from 2,000 miles away?

All that said, if I'm offered a great PI gig out the gate, I might give that priority over biglaw anyway.


I'm an 0L like you, but consensus holds that, outside of OCI, it is much easier to network in the location you want to work. Plenty of Cali firms come to Michigan OCI, but it's still much tougher to get than NY Biglaw because the market's so much smaller. That's why I called SoCal Biglaw a wash--you'd probably have to do about as well at either school to get it. But it's still possible to make connections--you can go to Michigan and do your 1L summer job in Cali, for instance. I guess if you were willing to consider NY Biglaw, at least for a couple of years, as an option, I would vote for Michigan. You'd be very competitive for that from Michigan at median.

I've gotten the impression that it's possible to find a high-paying job at a firm in SoCal outside of OCI, and that the UCLA name has a lot of pull in the market--as much if not more so than many T-14s. Maybe you could ask someone on one of those UCLA Student Answering Questions sections.

Did you apply to Berkeley? I imagine PI in California would be easiest to get from there.

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quiver
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby quiver » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:28 am

xwing_redleader wrote:
quiver wrote:If both sticker I'd say Mich. You have all of the pros of going to Mich with all the ties to the area you want to work. Mich's LRAP is among the best (since you want to do PI), they have better overall firm placement (although I'm not sure how their socal firm placement compares), and they are excellent in the clerkship department. That said, I'm wondering how you got into Mich without any $ at all at UCLA. If UCLA threw some money at you I think the two are basically equal (depending on the amount).


8) I was a reach at both schools, so I assume that's why I was offered no scholly at either. That said, I'm definitely planning to bring up Michigan when I begin negotiating my offer from UCLA. I come from a low-income background, so CoA is going to have to play a factor in all this.
Hmm ok. Well like I said, if both are at sticker I'd go with Mich in a heartbeat; you have everything you need to get back to socal.

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xwing_redleader
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby xwing_redleader » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:32 am

ahnhub wrote:
xwing_redleader wrote: I'd like to believe that I could hustle my way into biglaw, but I imagine most people would like to believe that. With Michigan's placement numbers, would it be easier to secure biglaw at Mich even considering that I'd have to hustle my way into LA from 2,000 miles away?

All that said, if I'm offered a great PI gig out the gate, I might give that priority over biglaw anyway.


I'm an 0L like you, but consensus holds that, outside of OCI, it is much easier to network in the location you want to work. Plenty of Cali firms come to Michigan OCI, but it's still much tougher to get than NY Biglaw because the market's so much smaller. That's why I called SoCal Biglaw a wash--you'd probably have to do about as well at either school to get it. But it's still possible to make connections--you can go to Michigan and do your 1L summer job in Cali, for instance. I guess if you were willing to consider NY Biglaw, at least for a couple of years, as an option, I would vote for Michigan. You'd be very competitive for that from Michigan at median.

I've gotten the impression that it's possible to find a high-paying job at a firm in SoCal outside of OCI, and that the UCLA name has a lot of pull in the market--as much if not more so than many T-14s. Maybe you could ask someone on one of those UCLA Student Answering Questions sections.

Did you apply to Berkeley? I imagine PI in California would be easiest to get from there.


I've had the chance to speak to UCLA students who were in my same boat, choosing between UCLA and Mich. They said exactly what you relayed, which is that--although Michigan definitely provides the opportunities--there is still a lot of extra hustling involved when you're on the other side of the map. Other UCLA students said the fact that I want to do public interest in So-Cal makes it a no-brainer for UCLA.

Also, dinged at Berkeley, so no option to attend there.

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xwing_redleader
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby xwing_redleader » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:36 am

quiver wrote:
xwing_redleader wrote:
quiver wrote:If both sticker I'd say Mich. You have all of the pros of going to Mich with all the ties to the area you want to work. Mich's LRAP is among the best (since you want to do PI), they have better overall firm placement (although I'm not sure how their socal firm placement compares), and they are excellent in the clerkship department. That said, I'm wondering how you got into Mich without any $ at all at UCLA. If UCLA threw some money at you I think the two are basically equal (depending on the amount).


8) I was a reach at both schools, so I assume that's why I was offered no scholly at either. That said, I'm definitely planning to bring up Michigan when I begin negotiating my offer from UCLA. I come from a low-income background, so CoA is going to have to play a factor in all this.
Hmm ok. Well like I said, if both are at sticker I'd go with Mich in a heartbeat; you have everything you need to get back to socal.


Thanks for the opinion. I've yet to visit Mich, so their ASW might make or break my decision.

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dproduct
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby dproduct » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:36 am

OP: I haven't done much research into UCLA's LRAP/IBR but I know that Michigan's is fantastic. That should be something you seriously look into if money is a problem.

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xwing_redleader
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Re: Michigan vs. UCLA (with poll!)

Postby xwing_redleader » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:42 am

dproduct wrote:OP: I haven't done much research into UCLA's LRAP/IBR but I know that Michigan's is fantastic. That should be something you seriously look into if money is a problem.


UCLA's LRAP is definitely legit, and on par with Mich, except for the fact that UCLA is limited to public interest fields. It covers you full up to $60,000, and is on a sliding scale up to $80,000, on par with Mich. I definitely have to go over the smaller details, for sure.




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