Any help thinning my list is appreciated

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IAFG
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby IAFG » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:36 pm

sjcourtney wrote:well be that as it may, I do not plan on taking the LSAT again as I feel like I did just fine.

You did fine for life but you did poorly in the context of the economy and your GPA. You're on the brink of making a terrible life choice.

Geaux12
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby Geaux12 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:40 pm

IAFG wrote: You're on the brink of making a terrible life choice.


I have to agree. You can't blindly accrue six figures in debt to attend a highly regional school in an area in which you have no connections. Recipe for disaster. Retake or choose another career path.

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top30man
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby top30man » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:56 pm

Geaux12 wrote:
IAFG wrote: You're on the brink of making a terrible life choice.


I have to agree. You can't blindly accrue six figures in debt to attend a highly regional school in an area in which you have no connections. Recipe for disaster. Retake or choose another career path.

I have to agree as well. I retook a score in the low to mid 160s. Now im t14 secure. In the 160s and up a single point or two makes a huge difference.

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romothesavior
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:45 am

sjcourtney wrote:well be that as it may, I do not plan on taking the LSAT again as I feel like I did just fine.

I really want to encourage you to rethink this. I was in your shoes a few years ago (from Illinois, scored a 162, looked at some similar schools, etc.), but decided to retake and it changed my life immeasurably. As a current law student, I can tell you that all of these schools on your list are really not good choices for you. We live in a legal economy where only about 1/2 graduates finds a job as an actual lawyer, and most of those jobs do not pay well. You are looking at a real uphill battle at all of these places, and you need a better school if you want to pursue your dream of being a lawyer.

I really think a retake is your best choice. I know "conventional wisdom" outside of these forums says that a 161 is great and that going to law school is a great investment, but it really is not for the majority of students. Everything you think you know about law school is either flat out wrong at worst, and substantially misinformed at best. Going to law school is not a terrible decision, but you need to put yourself in the best position to succeed, and that means minimizing risk by going to a better school or getting a big scholarship. If you'd like to PM me, please do so and I'd be happy to share some more of my personal experience with it.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby AVBucks4239 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:20 am

As somebody who was in your shoes who chose to suck it up, put law school off for a year and retake, I'd advise that you do the same. It sucks, but it's the best decision you'll make. During my year off:

(1) I improved my LSAT score enough to get a $12k scholarship/year to a strong regional school similar to the ones you've listed (no scholarship offer before retaking). I did well first semester and it will be difficult for me to lose my scholarship, so this decision will save me $36,000 in tuition alone.

(2) I moved back home and got a job in collections for $12.50 an hour. Sounds terrible, and it was, but that has been a great conversation piece in every interview. More importantly, by living at home, I saved about $12,000. That moves my total up to $48,000 saved.

(3) Most importantly, I used that time to do what people here call "0L prep." I didn't read any supplements, but I did read "1L of a Ride," "Getting to Maybe," "Law School Confidential," and also every guide to success here on TLS. I read all of these multiple times and created a strategy going into law school. This allowed me to hit the ground running from the first day of class when most people don't know what they're doing until October. I attribute this more than anything else to finishing where I did in my class.

Long story short, swallow your pride, get a better score (it's not just possible, it's probable if you put in the time), and re-apply and get scholarships. You've got one life to live, and you don't want at least 1/4 of it being clouded by terrible debt that could have been avoided.

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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby sjcourtney » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:50 pm

Ok just to clarify, I did get scholarships from each school. The smallest being 7500 a year from kansas. I haven't heard scholly info from marquette as of today.. I have been workin 2 jobs for plus years so I will not wait another year. I have money saved up so I'm just fine. You were all no help whatsoever in distinguishing between schools but that's ok ill choose on my own. Thanks for the "advice" though as it was fun to read.

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romothesavior
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:07 pm

It is hard to distinguish the schools because they are all so similar. They are all mediocre (or sub-par) hyper-regional schools. The question to this kind of question is normally, "Wherever you have ties." But you are from Illinois, admittedly have ties to none of these schools, and none of these schools are in Illinois.

What do you want us to tell you? The schools are all pretty bad for someone from Illinois. So go wherever is cheapest, and enjoy unemployment in 3 years.

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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby bobbyh1919 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:21 pm

sjcourtney wrote:Ok just to clarify, I did get scholarships from each school. The smallest being 7500 a year from kansas. I haven't heard scholly info from marquette as of today.. I have been workin 2 jobs for plus years so I will not wait another year. I have money saved up so I'm just fine. You were all no help whatsoever in distinguishing between schools but that's ok ill choose on my own. Thanks for the "advice" though as it was fun to read.


There is nothing to distinguish these schools. They are all regional schools that generally require ties to get a job. If you want to distinguish them in any way, see how much money you get, how much it could cost to live in each area, and then visit them and see what fits you best. But none of these schools are going to magically rise from the list and establish itself as a clear front runner.

rad lulz
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:25 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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acrossthelake
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:37 pm

sjcourtney wrote:Ok just to clarify, I did get scholarships from each school. The smallest being 7500 a year from kansas. I haven't heard scholly info from marquette as of today.. I have been workin 2 jobs for plus years so I will not wait another year. I have money saved up so I'm just fine. You were all no help whatsoever in distinguishing between schools but that's ok ill choose on my own. Thanks for the "advice" though as it was fun to read.


Everyone was giving you advice that they were trying to be helpful with.

Have you been reading the NY Times at all about the state of the law economy? Or you know, the general collapse of the economy? There are people on this website who went to much better schools on this list and got good grades who graduated without a job. I think the numbers are something like 35,000 jobs for new graduates, and 45,000 graduates each year, and it filters by school. Those at the top will get jobs, those at the bottom will not. I personally know 3Ls at the likes of Harvard without jobs (and no, not abnormally mean or awkward people either). I wouldn't go to the schools you listed if I was paid to do so(well, unless the pay was pretty nice)--it'd be throwing away 3 years of my life to graduate without a job (I have no ties to any of those markets).

rad lulz
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:46 pm

OP, here's a statement on the state of the legal market (from the venerable Grizz, RIP):

Grizz wrote:Dear Prospective Entrant,

The reality is, only 58% of law grads get full time jobs that require bar passage. Not all these jobs even pay. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=176606&p=5146995#p5146995. Assuming that 10% of all incoming entrants don't want to practice (99% of people at my school do, incidentally), law school was already a bad decision for at least 1/3 of all grads. They will never work as lawyers. Those that don't get jobs come disproportionally from lower-ranked schools. http://balkin.blogspot.com/2011/09/sobering-numbers-law-graduates-who-do.html. Meanwhile, average law school indebtedness nears $100k. http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2011/11/law-school-debt-bubble.html.

There's a lot of emphasis placed on big law firms here because that's the surest way to pay down that big debt. If you miss out on the big law boat, you'll likely start at about $50k. http://www.nalp.org/salarycurve_classof2010#curve2 (keep in mind that a lot of those jobs in the trough, $95k+, are big firms in smaller markets). This is, of course, if you are one of the lucky few that gets a legal job at all.

Meanwhile, law schools are lying to you, telling stories of 90%+ grads employed 9 months after graduation, with the implication that they are all getting jobs as lawyers. They use salary statistics from a small, successful portion of the class with the implication that this small segment represent the whole. http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2011/01/harperdeception.html; http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/ (look at the data clearinghouse). Why are they doing this? To get a nice cut of easy federal student loan dollars, as the government is lending to students without regard for their ability to repay. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/17/business/law-school-economics-job-market-weakens-tuition-rises.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=davidsegal.

So no, it's not elitism that makes me warn off people from less regarded schools, but rather simple economic realities of this noble profession. I read this article the other day, and I was struck about the actual nobility in how Lord, Day & Lord ran their practice. http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/02/nyregion/oldest-law-firm-is-courtly-loyal-and-defunct.html. Those were the good 'ol days. Now, prospective entrants to the profession are lied to and saddled with massive loans from the get-go. Telling someone not to take out $200k of debt for a school like Stetson is pretty sound economic advice. $50k debt? Okay, maybe that's not so bad. If someone wants to go to a school that has bad employment outcomes, go ahead, be my guest, I hope it works out for them. Nowhere did I say that law could not be rewarding. But from many schools, many grads will end up getting a nonlegal job they could have gotten with just their undergrad degree, except they'll be $100k in non-dischargeable student loan debt lighter.

Sincerely,
Grizz

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romothesavior
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:07 pm

acrossthelake wrote: I think the numbers are something like 35,000 jobs for new graduates, and 45,000 graduates each year

It is actually about 25,000 (based on c/o 2010), and a good chunk of those are temp jobs, school-created jobs, and unpaid "internships." I'm also not sure how LLMs are factored in, but they are usually either not counted in the pool or they are counted as employment, which is ridiculous since most people who get LLMs do so because they have no job.

Enjoy the legal market, OP.

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Michaela
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby Michaela » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:13 pm

Did OP ever say what the stips on these schollys are? I know some tend to ignore this (I know I did but have miraculously beat the 3.0 odds so far) but 0Ls IT IS A BIG DEAL YOU HAVE A BIG CHANCE OF LOSING YOUR $$$!

Sm Firm Hiring P
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby Sm Firm Hiring P » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:14 pm

romothesavior wrote:
acrossthelake wrote: I think the numbers are something like 35,000 jobs for new graduates, and 45,000 graduates each year

It is actually about 25,000 (based on c/o 2010), and a good chunk of those are temp jobs, school-created jobs, and unpaid "internships." I'm also not sure how LLMs are factored in, but they are usually either not counted in the pool or they are counted as employment, which is ridiculous since most people who get LLMs do so because they have no job.

Enjoy the legal market, OP.



The perception in my market about LLM is exactly as stated (even viewed as "couldn't get jobs") and it carries very little value to firms at the moment.

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acrossthelake
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby acrossthelake » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:16 pm

romothesavior wrote:
acrossthelake wrote: I think the numbers are something like 35,000 jobs for new graduates, and 45,000 graduates each year

It is actually about 25,000 (based on c/o 2010), and a good chunk of those are temp jobs, school-created jobs, and unpaid "internships." I'm also not sure how LLMs are factored in, but they are usually either not counted in the pool or they are counted as employment, which is ridiculous since most people who get LLMs do so because they have no job.

Enjoy the legal market, OP.


Ohh thanks for the update. I was going off of an old post from thesealocust(reliable dude, but it was an old post).

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby AVBucks4239 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:39 pm

sjcourtney wrote:Ok just to clarify, I did get scholarships from each school. The smallest being 7500 a year from kansas. I haven't heard scholly info from marquette as of today.. I have been workin 2 jobs for plus years so I will not wait another year. I have money saved up so I'm just fine. You were all no help whatsoever in distinguishing between schools but that's ok ill choose on my own. Thanks for the "advice" though as it was fun to read.

Let me get this straight. You asked a bunch of anonymous people on a message board for advice concerning a very personal decision by providing grossly incomplete information. People then gave you advice based on the limited information you provided by using their (1) personal experience, (2) knowledge of the legal market, and (3) probably a combination of both. You didn't get the answer you wanted to hear, mostly because you provided vague information, and now you are upset that said anonymous people "were of no help whatsoever."

Seriously, get a grip.

sjcourtney
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby sjcourtney » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:02 am

lol no no I honestly do appreciate any advice or help I can get and I know that you guys are just trying to give me solid info. I am 90 percent sure Im going to Marquette for the sports law program but thanks for the help

rad lulz
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:06 am

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:10 am

rad lulz wrote:
sjcourtney wrote:lol no no I honestly do appreciate any advice or help I can get and I know that you guys are just trying to give me solid info. I am 90 percent sure Im going to Marquette for the sports law program but thanks for the help

That's not a good idea. Specialty programs are pretty worthless, and Marquette is an also-ran in its market.

One of the least selective (among the decently paying) firms in Wisconsin told me they need 10% min from Marquette.

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IAFG
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby IAFG » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:11 am

sjcourtney wrote:lol no no I honestly do appreciate any advice or help I can get and I know that you guys are just trying to give me solid info. I am 90 percent sure Im going to Marquette for the sports law program but thanks for the help

How many people per year do you suppose get jobs in sports law? I know of two Northwestern grads in the past 5 years.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:18 am

sjcourtney wrote:lol no no I honestly do appreciate any advice or help I can get and I know that you guys are just trying to give me solid info. I am 90 percent sure Im going to Marquette for the sports law program but thanks for the help

I'm as big of a sports fan as you could be and I wouldn't even touch my school's sports law program (and it's a pretty good one). Choosing a law school for a specialty program is like choosing a girl for having nice fingernails.

Now, I'm not saying you shouldn't go to Marquette. If you like that school, like the legal market there, like other stuff about it, then go ahead. But good Lord please don't choose it because it has a good sports law program.

071816
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby 071816 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:19 am

didn't know there were programs for sports law...sounds like a gimmick.

rad lulz
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:20 am

chimp wrote:didn't know there were programs for sports law...sounds like a gimmick.

Ding ding ding! It is.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:22 am

Plus, believe it or not, sports law is HIGHLY competitive. Every guy who lettered in football/basketball/baseball thinks, "Wouldn't it be sweet to be an agent/general manager/executive for a pro sports athlete/team?" Because of this reason, most of the jobs are already taken and the people who have them aren't letting them go any time soon.

For example, my school (Cleveland Marshall) partners with the other school in town (Case Western) to form the Great Lakes Sports Academy. They work with all the pro-sports teams in Cleveland and every minor league team in Ohio. This year, they accepted 45 TOTAL students from both schools. From those 45, there will be a writing competition to earn a TOTAL of 8 unpaid externships. Those externships are not guaranteed to lead to full time employment AT ALL.

Basically, sports law programs are something you fuck around with 1L summer/early 2L until you realize no full time jobs actually exist.
Last edited by AVBucks4239 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Any help thinning my list is appreciated

Postby romothesavior » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:37 am

OP, you are about to do the career/financial equivalent of walking out onto a busy interstate with a blindfold on. You might make it across, but it is damn foolish.

As a fellow downstate Illinoisan, I hope you do well. But if I were placing bets, my money would be firmly against you having a good job at graduation in three years.




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