2013 Rankings

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lessthanjake
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby lessthanjake » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Yale will always be the top school, barring seismic methodological changes, for the same reason that Irvine is going to be a top 30 school despite having a largely non-existent reputation to date: US News severely advantages small schools, with small class sizes and high faculty-student ratios.


Small schools DO get a big help in the USNWR rankings. If you're small, you have a lower student/faculty ratio and a lower acceptance rate, both helping the rankings. However, it's unclear to me whether that's a real problem with the rankings. Smaller classes tend to do better than expected in things like clerkships and academia. We can look at just the top few schools to see this. Yale is undoubtedly an incredible law school, but I truly doubt they'd be getting SUCH a higher percentage of their class into Article III clerkships and academia than Harvard if they weren't like a third of the size. Similarly, I don't think Stanford would have similar clerkship and academia percentages as Harvard if they weren't so small. Lastly, Chicago does the best in academia amongst the CCN group, likely because it is small. Small classes mean more interaction with faculty which likely means faculty pulling for the student more for things like clerkships and academia. This is a real advantage that just isn't reflected in the peer assessment and lawyer rankings.

t14fanboy
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby t14fanboy » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:46 pm

What in the world does small school size have to do with low acceptance rate? Shitty schools have high acceptance rates and low yields.

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dingbat
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby dingbat » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:33 pm

lessthanjake wrote:Lastly, Chicago does the best in academia amongst the CCN group, likely because it is small.

I just figured it's because students at Columbia and NYU are mostly there because they're gunning for NY Biglaw
I guess I was wrong.

005618502
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby 005618502 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:51 am

Green Glass Windows wrote:Just glancing at UCI's LSN for this year so far, it doesn't seem like their numbers will be up to par with the schools in the t20 or even with their numbers from previous years. Numbers wise, UCI seems more in range with schools at the bottom of the t30. Of course, this could all change based on their initial ranking. By the way, have we determined that it will definitely be ranked this year? I'm now insanely curious as to what that ranking will be, especially considering it's one of my better offers this cycle.


It is very unlikely they will be ranked this cycle. I think people are saying it will be another year before they are ranked

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bernaldiaz
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby bernaldiaz » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:57 am

Shouldn't they be out very soon?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:59 am

bernaldiaz wrote:Shouldn't they be out very soon?


March 13th.

lessthanjake
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby lessthanjake » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:20 am

t14fanboy wrote:What in the world does small school size have to do with low acceptance rate? Shitty schools have high acceptance rates and low yields.


All things being equal, a school will have a lower acceptance rate if it is filling a smaller class. Imagine if Harvard randomly decided to cut their class size in half. They'd have to accept half as many people to fill their class. Do you think they'd get half as many applications too? Of course not. The acceptance rate would just go down.

I just figured it's because students at Columbia and NYU are mostly there because they're gunning for NY Biglaw
I guess I was wrong.


I don't know if this is sarcasm, but you are right, there probably is some element of self-selection determining why Columbia/NYU do worse than Chicago in academia, but I truly think the small class size plays a part.

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dingbat
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby dingbat » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:11 am

lessthanjake wrote:
t14fanboy wrote:What in the world does small school size have to do with low acceptance rate? Shitty schools have high acceptance rates and low yields.


All things being equal, a school will have a lower acceptance rate if it is filling a smaller class. Imagine if Harvard randomly decided to cut their class size in half. They'd have to accept half as many people to fill their class. Do you think they'd get half as many applications too? Of course not. The acceptance rate would just go down.

I just figured it's because students at Columbia and NYU are mostly there because they're gunning for NY Biglaw
I guess I was wrong.


I don't know if this is sarcasm, but you are right, there probably is some element of self-selection determining why Columbia/NYU do worse than Chicago in academia, but I truly think the small class size plays a part.

I love your logic (inference) Unfortunately it doesn't account for the TTTTs that have very small class sizes, or the fact that half the T6 have ginormous classes. Do you think that if Cooleys were to cut their class by 75%, they would suddenly shoot up the rankings?
I can see an argument made the other way, but if a school like Chicago were to gradually increase their class size (over many years) I doubt they'd experience any significant drop, if any.

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bk1
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby bk1 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:01 am

dingbat wrote:I can see an argument made the other way, but if a school like Chicago were to gradually increase their class size (over many years) I doubt they'd experience any significant drop, if any.


Well it depends. As it stands right now, the disparities in USNWR raw scores among the T14 are mainly function of per student spending. If Chicago could ramp up spending accordingly then yeah they'd be fine, but if spending stayed static they likely wouldn't.

Case2L
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby Case2L » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:53 pm

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... w-rankings

Looks like they're up now. Texas is officially T14.

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Bronck
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby Bronck » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:56 pm

Case2L wrote:http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

Looks like they're up now. Texas is officially T14.


Lol what? Those are the old ones. It even says "Ranked in 2011" at the top.

83947368
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby 83947368 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:57 pm

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Last edited by 83947368 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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5ky
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby 5ky » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:58 pm

Case2L wrote:http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

Looks like they're up now. Texas is officially T14.


Those are last year's, chief

cdelgado
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby cdelgado » Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:58 pm

Case2L wrote:http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings

Looks like they're up now. Texas is officially T14.

Image

Case2L
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby Case2L » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:02 pm

Damn - I guess I didn't even look at last year's rankings! :oops: I had no idea Texas was in the top 14! I've been out of law school for a few years, so I quit paying attention.

Case2L
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby Case2L » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:03 pm

US News will now have to stop the presses and drop Case a few points for my comment...

071816
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby 071816 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:35 pm

bk1 wrote:
dingbat wrote:I can see an argument made the other way, but if a school like Chicago were to gradually increase their class size (over many years) I doubt they'd experience any significant drop, if any.


Well it depends. As it stands right now, the disparities in USNWR raw scores among the T14 are mainly function of per student spending. If Chicago could ramp up spending accordingly then yeah they'd be fine, but if spending stayed static they likely wouldn't.


Its so retarded that usnews rewards schools for being inefficient with their spending.

Hold up. Are you a mod now?

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junm
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby junm » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:41 pm

Tag... Hoping to see GW go up

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traehekat
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby traehekat » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:50 pm

Dropping in for the annual "fluctuations in rankings don't matter because employers don't care about them" post.

Although, I am a LITTLE curious to see what happens to Illinois after that whole admissions data scandal.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:18 am

The $$$ per student has got to be the worst part about USNEWS. No single factor has contributed more to the rising cost of a JD, and thus the crushing debt.

lessthanjake
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby lessthanjake » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:28 am

dingbat wrote:
lessthanjake wrote:
t14fanboy wrote:What in the world does small school size have to do with low acceptance rate? Shitty schools have high acceptance rates and low yields.


All things being equal, a school will have a lower acceptance rate if it is filling a smaller class. Imagine if Harvard randomly decided to cut their class size in half. They'd have to accept half as many people to fill their class. Do you think they'd get half as many applications too? Of course not. The acceptance rate would just go down.

I just figured it's because students at Columbia and NYU are mostly there because they're gunning for NY Biglaw
I guess I was wrong.


I don't know if this is sarcasm, but you are right, there probably is some element of self-selection determining why Columbia/NYU do worse than Chicago in academia, but I truly think the small class size plays a part.

I love your logic (inference) Unfortunately it doesn't account for the TTTTs that have very small class sizes, or the fact that half the T6 have ginormous classes. Do you think that if Cooleys were to cut their class by 75%, they would suddenly shoot up the rankings?
I can see an argument made the other way, but if a school like Chicago were to gradually increase their class size (over many years) I doubt they'd experience any significant drop, if any.


The things that are helped by small class size (acceptance rate, spending per student, student/faculty ratio) account for only 16.75% of the ranking. If Cooley cut their class by 75%, they'd definitely get higher scores in those things, but the fact that those three things do not comprise a massive part of the ranking would stop them from shooting up the rankings very much; their reputation scores and job numbers would still be bad.

And half the T6 have big classes, but they're ranked highly because of massive reputation and employment scores. They don't do badly in acceptance rate, student/faculty ratio, and spending because they are big schools with a lot of resources that many kids apply to, but that's why I said "all things being equal." A big class size won't make a fantastic school get a low ranking, but it could leave it behind a school of similar quality with a smaller class.

If Chicago increased their class size gradually, I don't think there would be a significant drop. If they were able to hire some more faculty and ramp up their spending alongside the increasing class size, then they'd likely be fine. They'd likely end up with a slightly higher student/faculty ratio and a bit less spending person student. Meanwhile a bigger class WOULD lower their acceptance rate, and I personally think they'd find it hard to keep their LSAT/GPA medians steady with a significantly bigger class, even if it were done gradually. As such, I imagine it might hurt them a little bit (but in the possibly going 5th -> 6th sorta way, not a dramatic way). I do think their academia numbers would start to look significantly worse though.

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flyingduck
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby flyingduck » Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:20 am

Not sure if it's been posted but theres a countdown clock on the US News website. I guess the rankings come out on Thursday.

bobbyh1919
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby bobbyh1919 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:09 am

flyingduck wrote:Not sure if it's been posted but theres a countdown clock on the US News website. I guess the rankings come out on Thursday.


Yeah that countdown suggests around midnight on Thursday. Wonder if they moved it back or if people were just throwing around an inaccurate date.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:11 am

bobbyh1919 wrote:
flyingduck wrote:Not sure if it's been posted but theres a countdown clock on the US News website. I guess the rankings come out on Thursday.


Yeah that countdown suggests around midnight on Thursday. Wonder if they moved it back or if people were just throwing around an inaccurate date.


http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/c ... h-march-13

pret
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Re: Predicting 2013 Rankings

Postby pret » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:12 am

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... aw-schools

1. Columbia University (NY)
2. Harvard University (MA)
3. New York University
4. Stanford University (CA)
5. University of California--Berkeley
6. University of Chicago
7. University of Michigan--Ann Arbor
8. University of Pennsylvania
9. University of Virginia
10. Yale University (CT)

ABC order of the top 10!
Last edited by pret on Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:14 am, edited 3 times in total.




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