T-14 Back to The West Coast

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Hjones33
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T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Hjones33 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:34 pm

This might be a question that no one can truly answer but here we go anyway...

What school that is outside of the t6 but inside the t14 (excluding UC-Berk) has the best chance of getting back to the west coast?

I am particular interested in PI work, but I think this could also be useful for others for big law too. I feel like a good amount of people have to decide between schools like Penn, Michigan, Virginia, Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown, and Duke but still want to work on the West Coast. Also, since UC-Berk is not very splitter friendly, i think it is legitimate to get accepted to many schools in that range but not Berk.


Thanks for any help!

shoeshine
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby shoeshine » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:38 pm

I think your answer is that if you can't attend UC Berkeley then it really does not matter in that range. You will have an equal shot from each place and your chances will probably hinge on your ties to the west coast and your grades.

Hopefully you get into Berk or Stanford. Have you considered UCLA?

Boggs
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Boggs » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:41 pm

Having talked to several attorneys about this, I'd say Michigan or Georgetown. I'm not completely sure why, but that's the response I've gotten.

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bk1
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby bk1 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:43 pm

shoeshine wrote:if you can't attend UC Berkeley then it really does not matter in that range. You will have an equal shot from each place and your chances will probably hinge on your ties to the west coast and your grades.


This.

Look at the employers that come to their OCI, most of them have similar amounts of CA employers. At this point you should decide between them based on other things ($, secondary location preference, LRAP, personal school preference, etc).

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Hjones33
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Hjones33 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:47 pm

Appreciate the responses. I assumed they were all pretty similar, but I wanted to know if anyone else had some info that I didn't know about.

And ya I have considered Ucla. However the cost of attendance at sticker (I am from the west coast but not Cali, so no In state) is more than most of the t14 schools. Also, they don't seem to have as good of a LRAP as some of the schools I mentioned. Is there something I might be missing with my assessment of UCLA? Does it do a lot better on the West Coast compared to a school like Michigan (I know it is probably hard to determine this because of self-selection)?

bdubs
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby bdubs » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:01 pm

Michigan is probably the best bet if you had to pick just based on this metric alone (which you really shouldn't). They have a relatively dispersed base of recruiters and a large enough class to bring in a large volume.

Also, when you say "West Coast" do you mean all of WA, OR, and CA. Or just one or two of the markets (SF/SV, LA, Seattle, Portland)?

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lisjjen
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby lisjjen » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:07 pm

So let's be open-minded with the term T14. Or let's just say T15. Because Texas does well in California. And it may not do as well as USC or UCLA, but it's a more national program with better employment statistics than those other two. So there's that.

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Hjones33
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Hjones33 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:24 pm

bdubs wrote:Michigan is probably the best bet if you had to pick just based on this metric alone (which you really shouldn't). They have a relatively dispersed base of recruiters and a large enough class to bring in a large volume.

Also, when you say "West Coast" do you mean all of WA, OR, and CA. Or just one or two of the markets (SF/SV, LA, Seattle, Portland)?



I would prefer the PNW, but wouldn't be sad about Cali. I am one of those few people who like the rain (although I do have some personal ties to San Diego, but I heard that has a tiny market). I want to get into government prosecution (But who knows, that could change once in Law School, but that has really appealed to me since high school).

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Bronck
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Bronck » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:25 pm

Do you have any ties to the PNW? If not, then it's very very unlikely that you will get anything there.

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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby shoeshine » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:27 pm

Bronck wrote:Do you have any ties to the PNW? If not, then it's very very unlikely that you will get anything there.

This. The PNW is very insular.

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Hjones33
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Hjones33 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:31 pm

I am from there. I have no legal ties. Grew up there, went to undergrad there. Is that enough for a tie?

shoeshine
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby shoeshine » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:32 pm

Hjones33 wrote:I am from there. I have no legal ties. Grew up there, went to undergrad there. Is that enough for a tie?

That is perfect.

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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby lisjjen » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:34 pm

shoeshine wrote:
Bronck wrote:Do you have any ties to the PNW? If not, then it's very very unlikely that you will get anything there.

This. The PNW is very insular.


Coming from the PNW, I can tell you that's true. If you want to work in Seattle, go to UW and if you want to go to Portland, go to University of Oregon. Obviously, you can get into the PNW with a T14 degree and above median, but you're going to have to work for it. I can also tell you that you probably wouldn't be able to get it until your second summer and after your first summer, when you see how much you can make in a bigger market, it's going to be difficult to convince yourself to take 2/3rds of the pay check.

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Hjones33
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Hjones33 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:41 pm

lisjjen wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
Bronck wrote:Do you have any ties to the PNW? If not, then it's very very unlikely that you will get anything there.

This. The PNW is very insular.


Coming from the PNW, I can tell you that's true. If you want to work in Seattle, go to UW and if you want to go to Portland, go to University of Oregon. Obviously, you can get into the PNW with a T14 degree and above median, but you're going to have to work for it. I can also tell you that you probably wouldn't be able to get it until your second summer and after your first summer, when you see how much you can make in a bigger market, it's going to be difficult to convince yourself to take 2/3rds of the pay check.



Only problem with Oregon and LC is that they don't give a lot of scholarship money. It is hard for me to justify going to a tier two school with at most a 1/2 scholarship over a t-14 with a good LRAP. Also about the 2/3 pay check, I plan on getting into the government/PI (Then again I understand I have to be flexible).

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lisjjen
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby lisjjen » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:43 pm

Hjones33 wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
Bronck wrote:Do you have any ties to the PNW? If not, then it's very very unlikely that you will get anything there.

This. The PNW is very insular.


Coming from the PNW, I can tell you that's true. If you want to work in Seattle, go to UW and if you want to go to Portland, go to University of Oregon. Obviously, you can get into the PNW with a T14 degree and above median, but you're going to have to work for it. I can also tell you that you probably wouldn't be able to get it until your second summer and after your first summer, when you see how much you can make in a bigger market, it's going to be difficult to convince yourself to take 2/3rds of the pay check.



Only problem with Oregon and LC is that they don't give a lot of scholarship money. It is hard for me to justify going to a tier two school with at most a 1/2 scholarship over a t-14 with a good LRAP. Also about the 2/3 pay check, I plan on getting into the government/PI (Then again I understand I have to be flexible).


Which T14?

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Hjones33
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Hjones33 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:48 pm

Well I am not applying till next year because I am retaking in June. I know people hate hypos, but the original question was more open and I felt like could contribute to others in the future as well.

I am pt'ing in the high 160s with my testmasters class still to do this spring and i have a solid gpa and am a URM (NA).


EDIT: Also, a school in particular that I have always been fond of is Michigan (and it doesn't hurt what people have added in this thread). If I get a 168-173 (I know big if, bit definitely plausible as I am already pting at 168), I believe I would have a good shot at multiple schools in the 7-14 range.
Last edited by Hjones33 on Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

acrossthelake
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:49 pm

lisjjen wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
Bronck wrote:Do you have any ties to the PNW? If not, then it's very very unlikely that you will get anything there.

This. The PNW is very insular.


Coming from the PNW, I can tell you that's true. If you want to work in Seattle, go to UW and if you want to go to Portland, go to University of Oregon. Obviously, you can get into the PNW with a T14 degree and above median, but you're going to have to work for it. I can also tell you that you probably wouldn't be able to get it until your second summer and after your first summer, when you see how much you can make in a bigger market, it's going to be difficult to convince yourself to take 2/3rds of the pay check.


I've actually found from personal experience and from other friends that you can do really well at a top school like Harvard, get really good opportunities outside the Pacific Northwest, and get shut out of Seattle despite growing up there. I know people who've ended up at V3 firms who got nothing in Seattle, despite it being their very top choice market. I like Seattle, but I'm not going to be wasting my bids there.

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Hjones33
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Hjones33 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:54 pm

acrossthelake wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
shoeshine wrote:
Bronck wrote:Do you have any ties to the PNW? If not, then it's very very unlikely that you will get anything there.

This. The PNW is very insular.


Coming from the PNW, I can tell you that's true. If you want to work in Seattle, go to UW and if you want to go to Portland, go to University of Oregon. Obviously, you can get into the PNW with a T14 degree and above median, but you're going to have to work for it. I can also tell you that you probably wouldn't be able to get it until your second summer and after your first summer, when you see how much you can make in a bigger market, it's going to be difficult to convince yourself to take 2/3rds of the pay check.


I've actually found from personal experience and from other friends that you can do really well at a top school like Harvard, get really good opportunities outside the Pacific Northwest, and get shut out of Seattle despite growing up there. I know people who've ended up at V3 firms who got nothing in Seattle, despite it being their very top choice market. I like Seattle, but I'm not going to be wasting my bids there.



Wow, even from Harvard, plus growing up there? Thanks for the info. While I am more interested in Portland, it is probably similar there too. (Once again, I am interested in the whole West Coast. But if I was going to rate I would say Portland>Seattle>Cali).

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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:59 pm

Hjones33 wrote:
Wow, even from Harvard, plus growing up there? Thanks for the info. While I am more interested in Portland, it is probably similar there too. (Once again, I am interested in the whole West Coast. But if I was going to rate I would say Portland>Seattle>Cali).

I didn't do undergrad there, but yes, plus undergrad happens too.
I'm suspicious it's a yield-protection thing. For the one callback I had there they were grilling me like crazy about why us, why Seattle in a way that a callback in a different, much more competitive market, didn't. I got a single screener(which turned into a callback) out of the Seattle firms I applied to for the summer, though it's admittedly just 1L. And while I don't want to get very specific about my grades, I was above median.

I'd be more inclined to dismiss it as a "1L" thing, if it hadn't happened to my friend during 2L OCI. If you look at Harvard's EIP statistics, I think there might be like one offer a year the past few years, market-wide(which typically gets turned down).

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Hjones33
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Hjones33 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:57 pm

Very interesting. Weird. Alright thanks for the info. If anyone has anything else it would be very appreciated.

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Campagnolo
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Campagnolo » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:18 pm

I'm from Portland and headed for an east-coast T14 with the goal of coming back home eventually. We'll see what happens. It may be that you have to work in NYC for a handful of years before coming home. Talk to people. Just look 'em up on the firm website and cold call them. Most are receptive. Talk to friends of friends of neighbors of ex-girlfriends' cousins. Meet lawyers in town who have gone through it and can help you sort through your options. You just have to realize that the Portland market is teeny tiny.

It's curious that you think L+C is stingy with money. In fact, they are quite generous once you start getting above their 75% marks. Oregon gives out 15k/year scholarships that damn near cover all of tuition if you're in state.

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Hjones33
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Hjones33 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:32 pm

Campagnolo wrote:I'm from Portland and headed for an east-coast T14 with the goal of coming back home eventually. We'll see what happens. It may be that you have to work in NYC for a handful of years before coming home. Talk to people. Just look 'em up on the firm website and cold call them. Most are receptive. Talk to friends of friends of neighbors of ex-girlfriends' cousins. Meet lawyers in town who have gone through it and can help you sort through your options. You just have to realize that the Portland market is teeny tiny.

It's curious that you think L+C is stingy with money. In fact, they are quite generous once you start getting above their 75% marks. Oregon gives out 15k/year scholarships that damn near cover all of tuition if you're in state.



Thanks for the advice. I thought reading lawschoolnumbers that they were pretty stingy. I should be above their 75% in the LSAT and above their median GPA, but not 75%. Are you going to try to get back after law school or try to get back eventually like you said with no real urgency? Are you looking for biglaw or gov't? Do you think being in government would make it different (and yes I know about the freeze in hiring at the moment and its tough everywhere for gov)? Because the government market wouldn't really be teeny because wouldn't it just be comparable to the population size? Sorry, I know I asked a ton of questions and I made an assumption on that last question with nothing to back up the claim, but would appreciate any advice/ help. Thanks anyways!

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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby acrossthelake » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:37 pm

Hjones33 wrote:

Thanks for the advice. I thought reading lawschoolnumbers that they were pretty stingy. I should be above their 75% in the LSAT and above their median GPA, but not 75%. Are you going to try to get back after law school or try to get back eventually like you said with no real urgency? Are you looking for biglaw or gov't? Do you think being in government would make it different (and yes I know about the freeze in hiring at the moment and its tough everywhere for gov)? Because the government market wouldn't really be teeny because wouldn't it just be comparable to the population size? Sorry, I know I asked a ton of questions and I made an assumption on that last question with nothing to back up the claim, but would appreciate any advice/ help. Thanks anyways!


A lot of the good government jobs expect that have a couple years of experience first. This might work for you if you go PI-->govt, though.

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Hjones33
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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby Hjones33 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:00 am

Thanks AcrossTheLake. Reading this website a lot the past few months makes it seem like the good government jobs does take a few years of experience. When you say good though, do you mean federal positions? Does someone usually need multiple years of experience before getting hired into a DA's office (assuming not a huge city like NYC, DC, Chicago, etc.)? I also know that with the government hiring freeze it has made the government positions pretty hard to get.

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Re: T-14 Back to The West Coast

Postby acrossthelake » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:34 am

Hjones33 wrote:Thanks AcrossTheLake. Reading this website a lot the past few months makes it seem like the good government jobs does take a few years of experience. When you say good though, do you mean federal positions? Does someone usually need multiple years of experience before getting hired into a DA's office (assuming not a huge city like NYC, DC, Chicago, etc.)? I also know that with the government hiring freeze it has made the government positions pretty hard to get.


I'll admit I've mostly only looked into federal stuff, like USAO, so I can't speak much to more state-level local stuff. I do know that in general, if you want to stay in PI, then doing law firm work first disadvantages you over people who were PI all the way from the beginning.

Of the little I know, I sat next to an NYU grad on the way back to Boston after visiting NYC one weekend who was moving to work in the public defender's office in one of the suburbs around here I barely recognize, and she gave me the impression that the job search had been quite difficult, particularly due to the hiring freeze. I don't know much about something like the DA's office or one out in like a smaller city in Oregon.




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