Hofstra vs. St. John's

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Jimbola
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Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby Jimbola » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:18 pm

Would commute to both schools (20 minutes to Hofstra; 45 minutes to St. John's)
$25K from Hofstra
$22,500 from St. Johns
Interested in City DA office

T-14 or gtfo ppl I already know you think these are terrible options.

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Chucky21
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby Chucky21 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:45 pm

Hofstra, they offer you more money, and the commute is shorter. btw I respect the commuting, some people just don't realize the effort it takes.

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dingbat
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby dingbat » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:04 pm

Practically speaking, St. John's and Hofstra are more or less the same thing.

According to their website, St John is $900 more expensive is a few thousand dollars more expensive (normally a negligble amount), so after taking scholarships into account, in total it's about $10k more and an additional 25 minutes of your life each day.

That should make it an easy decision

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Jimbola
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby Jimbola » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:48 pm

Yeah, I guess I just have to visit each and see what seems like the right "fit"

timbs4339
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby timbs4339 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:47 pm

Have you tried speaking to people at the DAs office and seeing where they hired their last few classes of graduates?

Have you considered CUNY? It's much lower cost with a public interest bent.

z0rk
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby z0rk » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:34 pm

I am originally from NYC, my grandfather was a St. John's alum and he was appointed a state judge by Nelson Rockefeller. As per the choice, I would say it really does matter where you want to practice. Hofstra has more pull with the Nassau County DA's office. Are you out on long island?

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NYC KID
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby NYC KID » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:27 pm

If there was a poll I would vote Hofstra. Easier commute and if you take summer classes Jones Beach is 20 minutes away. Plus they gave you more $$$ and it's the "Harvard of Long Island." An attorney who graduated from there said that. lol

RW65
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby RW65 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:08 am

I think you're better of at St. John's. If you want to work in a NYC DA's office St. John's will provide better opportunities to do that. The prosecution clinic puts 15-20 students in the Queens and Bronx DA's offices during 3L, which gives you an opportunity to work in these offices as a student attorney.

Also, although people on here view as equals, and in large part they are, St. John's has a better reputation in the LI/NYC legal community.

sgoingIP
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby sgoingIP » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:17 pm

I would take Hofstra. That is a long commute during 1L year can be hell when reading takes you forever. I think both schools will give you similar opportunity to obtain a DA's spot in NYC, but be warned those DA spots are really competitive from any school. You will need to be in top 5-10% at either school to be competitive.

Reputation wise, the only difference I heard was that St. Johns tends to have more judges on LI vs Hofstra.

RW65
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby RW65 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:28 pm

sgoingIP wrote:be warned those DA spots are really competitive from any school. You will need to be in top 5-10% at either school to be competitive.


This is completely false. In fact, everyone I know who is working in one of the NYC DA's offices next year is well outside the top 5-10%.

As for reputation, etc., see reasonable_man's post in this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=178765.

rad lulz
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby rad lulz » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:41 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lmrt
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby lmrt » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:48 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Jimbola wrote:I already know you think these are terrible options.

Yet for some reason you choose to continue...


Probably because she or he doesn't think those schools are terrible options. You don't know this person or their situation. Your standards aren't important to everybody. The poster already acknowledged they're cognizant of the arguments against attending Hofstra or St. John's. What did you hope to accomplish by posting a snarky comment?

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red_owl
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby red_owl » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:03 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Jimbola wrote:I already know you think these are terrible options.

Yet for some reason you choose to continue...

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romothesavior
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:38 pm

lmrt wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Jimbola wrote:I already know you think these are terrible options.

Yet for some reason you choose to continue...


Probably because she or he doesn't think those schools are terrible options. You don't know this person or their situation. Your standards aren't important to everybody. The poster already acknowledged they're cognizant of the arguments against attending Hofstra or St. John's. What did you hope to accomplish by posting a snarky comment?

I have said this many times: Prospective law students say they know the market is bad and that they know that such and such school is bad, etc. But most don't really get it. It is one thing to pay lip-service to the bad economy or a school's poor reputation, but it is another to actually internalize it and shape your decisionmaking based on that reality. It'd be like me (a middle class white guy who has had all the benefits of a good upbringing) saying, "Man, life sure is tough for a poor kid in the ghetto being raised by a single mom." Sure, I get that it's tough. But do I really get it? It's one thing for me to say it, it's another thing for me to internalize it and then allow that internalization to affect my decisionmaking processes and worldviews. In the same way, OP and other 0Ls can say the market is tough and jobs are scarce, but I really don't know how much this is being internalized.

Also, you are correct that I don't know this person or their situation. I don't want to presume too much about him or her because I don't know anything about them. But I don't think it would be all that ridiculous to presume that OP would like to be unemployed after law school as a lawyer. But this goal does not come to fruition for a lot of students at law schools like these. Please read this awesome post here to see what I mean.

The reason people dissuade applicants from these schools isn't because of some notion of "T14 elitism." It's because people who go to schools like these have no better than a coin flip shot at ever getting a legal job. I hope you will try to internalize this reality, OP. Good luck.

lmrt
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby lmrt » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:55 pm

If rad lulz made any of those arguments, I wouldn't have said anything. As it happened, they just posted a condescending, unconstructive reply that seems unlikely to do anything but make the original poster feel bad.

In any case, good luck to all.

rad lulz
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby rad lulz » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:02 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby dingbat » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:30 pm

rad lulz wrote:
lmrt wrote:If rad lulz made any of those arguments, I wouldn't have said anything. As it happened, they just posted a condescending, unconstructive reply that seems unlikely to do anything but make the original poster feel bad.

In any case, good luck to all.

He should feel bad. He's hell bent on making a terrible decision despite claiming to know the risks. It's objectively unreasonable.


And what exactly makes it a terrible decision if he knows the risks?

This board in general is very arrogant and believes anything outside of the T14 is a recipe for disaster.
It isn't. There can be any of several reasons to go to either of these schools that are valid and intelligent.

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red_owl
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby red_owl » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:33 pm

dingbat wrote:anything outside of the T14 is a recipe for disaster.

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romothesavior
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:33 pm

dingbat wrote:And what exactly makes it a terrible decision if he knows the risks?

I walk out onto a busy interstate. For most, this would be a terrible decision. However, I know the risks, so it's not a terrible decision.

Sweet logic, eh bro?

rad lulz
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby rad lulz » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:36 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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suits00
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby suits00 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:39 pm

rad lulz wrote:
dingbat wrote:This board in general is very arrogant and believes anything outside of the T14 is a recipe for disaster.
It isn't.

I'm not at one. But Hofstra and St. John's are true bottom feeders.


For you and your goals, that may be so. For others, Hofstra or St. John's would provide them with the education and subsequent careers they desire.
Last edited by suits00 on Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:40 pm

dingbat wrote:This board in general is very arrogant and believes anything outside of the T14 is a recipe for disaster..

And again, the reason people advise against these schools has nothing to do with arrogance or elitism or anything like that. It has to do with cold hard facts. The "TLS IS A BUNCH OF T14 ELITISTS!" mantra is as old as it is false. You do realize that the two people arguing with you here (myself and rad lulz) are NOT at T14s, right?

Here's the cold hard reality: According to NALP data, only 58% of all law school graduates in the c/o 2010 found jobs as lawyers. And that isn't even the worst of it. That 58% number includes temp jobs, school-created jobs, people who got LLMs because they couldn't find an actual job, and unpaid government and PI "internships." The number of total grads getting real jobs as lawyers likely hovers around 50%. Please, before you post anymore of your objectively horrible advice and ignore everything the rest of us are saying, try to wrap your head around that statistic.

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red_owl
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby red_owl » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:45 pm

suits00 wrote:For others, Hofstra or St. John's would provide them with the education and subsequent careers they desire.


Starbucks requires a JD these days?

rad lulz
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby rad lulz » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:46 pm

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Last edited by rad lulz on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dingbat
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Re: Hofstra vs. St. John's

Postby dingbat » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:18 pm

romothesavior wrote:
dingbat wrote:This board in general is very arrogant and believes anything outside of the T14 is a recipe for disaster..

And again, the reason people advise against these schools has nothing to do with arrogance or elitism or anything like that. It has to do with cold hard facts. The "TLS IS A BUNCH OF T14 ELITISTS!" mantra is as old as it is false. You do realize that the two people arguing with you here (myself and rad lulz) are NOT at T14s, right?

Here's the cold hard reality: According to NALP data, only 58% of all law school graduates in the c/o 2010 found jobs as lawyers. And that isn't even the worst of it. That 58% number includes temp jobs, school-created jobs, people who got LLMs because they couldn't find an actual job, and unpaid government and PI "internships." The number of total grads getting real jobs as lawyers likely hovers around 50%. Please, before you post anymore of your objectively horrible advice and ignore everything the rest of us are saying, try to wrap your head around that statistic.


Cold hard fact: there are a lot of unemployed people at the moment - in every field.
That being said, about 30% of Hofstra graduates are working at real law firms (10+ attorneys) or Clerkships.
While that's not a particularly high number, if OP can get a law degree for $45k plus cost of living (How low can this be kept down), that's pretty darn cheap.
$45k for a 30% chance is better than $150k for a 50% chance.

Yes, it would be better if we could all go to a top school, but that option isn't possible for everyone. If OP really wants to pursue a law career and is willing to work hard and take a chance, then it should not be discouraged.

As long as OP isn't looking for a big payday and realizes that it's an uphill struggle, it might be a risk worth taking.
If OP said s/he really wanted to go Biglaw or straight into Academia, then clearly it's a bad idea.
However, if OP is deadset on a career in law, doesn't mind starting at the bottom, and is willing to take a chance, then who are we to say, no, you can't do it.

OP wasn't asking if he should go to law school, but rather, which of the two is a better option. Telling OP not to go to either isn't constructive at all.




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