Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

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bernaldiaz
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby bernaldiaz » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:03 am

chimp wrote:
mattviphky wrote:
vivian3909 wrote:Right, I get what everyone is saying but I'm just saying, if I do well, I might become a lawyer with no debt. If I don't do well, I'll go do something else with no debt. Also, Mich is awesome but no one seems to know that its a good school outside of the law profession. Might need some convincing to let my family know its a good choice.


Do you plan on being hired by someone who isn't in the law profession? Also, you're from California, Michigan probably doesn't seem that impressive. I'm from the Midwest. Stanford seems really cool, and USC used to have a good football team. Other than that, the state schools and the state itself is crumbling. See, it's regional perspective.


USC's football team is still pretty damn good.


Unfortunately. Ruined my senior year (probably).

Real Madrid
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby Real Madrid » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:56 am

vivian3909 wrote:Thing is: Golden Gate U: full scholarship+ in my home city where I can stay with family for free

Michigan: thousands of miles away and nice scholarship but still 40k a year w/ room and board

I'm losing hair over this so...what do you think?


I hate to be rude, but if I were in charge of admissions at UMich I would find out who you are and rescind your offer of admission, because this thread is just flat-out insulting. You're seriously asking us what you should choose between a scholarship at one of the worst schools in the country versus a scholarship at one of the best schools in the country? Am I reading this correctly?

Maybe you should go to GGU. It sounds like that's what you want to hear, so go ahead and roll the dice and open up a spot for someone who actually appreciates how lucky they would be to pay sticker to go to Michigan, let alone to have your scholarship. Just know that you will regret your decision.

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homestyle28
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby homestyle28 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:22 am

NYC Law wrote:GGU
  • 95% chance you won't do well enough for a decent job that will lead to anything
  • Will have wasted 3 years of life
  • No debt, but no job, and now you're 25-26 looking for a new career
  • Black mark on your resume of a JD from a shitty school, people will assume you aren't very bright, are a flight risk, and have a terrible lawyer personality
  • School is in an AWFUL legal market, making the above problems even worse
  • Will most likely end up having to take a job in the restaurant or retail industry

Michigan
  • 80% chance or so of finding something decent
  • You still have a scholarship...
  • Should be able to carry you back to CA
  • YOUR DEBT WILL BE GONE IN 10 YEARS ANYWAY, I DONT SEE HOW THIS IS SUCH A PROBLEM
  • Even if you decide not to do law, you can take any job at all in the public sector and the debt will go away after 10 years
  • If you decide not to do law, most employers will at least understand U Mich is a very good school, and will be more open to hiring you


I spelled it out as clearly as I possibly can. If you choose GGU, god help you. You will regret it, but you will have no one to blame but yourself.


This is about right...there are legitimate reasons to choose lesser ranked schools over the t-14 (moving with a wife and kids, already have post-LS job secured, etc.) but they don't seem to be present here.

thecactus
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby thecactus » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:59 am

If the OP isn't a troll, she's incredibly, incredibly naive.

Why are you even considering going to Golden Gate...at all? Why did you even apply to Michigan? This should be a complete no-brainer.

Wanna convince your family Michigan is a good choice? Show them every law school rankings list ever created. They will all show that Michigan towers over Golden Gate in every conceivable way.

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sunynp
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby sunynp » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:06 am

The only problem I have with the below is the assumption that OP will graduate with no debt from GGU. There are good odds she will lose that scholarship. Given the level of OPs ignorance with law admissions and law schools she probably doesn't understand LRAP. What are there, about 150 or more law schools between these two choices? She doesn't get that either.
I do agree that at this point , if she still decides to go there- she will forever regret it and it will be her own damn fault.
homestyle28 wrote:
NYC Law wrote:GGU
  • 95% chance you won't do well , enough for a decent job that will lead to anything
  • Will have wasted 3 years of life
  • No debt, but no job, and now you're 25-26 looking for a new career
  • Black mark on your resume of a JD from a shitty school, people will assume you aren't very bright, are a flight risk, and have a terrible lawyer personality
  • School is in an AWFUL legal market, making the above problems even worse
  • Will most likely end up having to take a job in the restaurant or retail industry

Michigan
  • 80% chance or so of finding something decent
  • You still have a scholarship...
  • Should be able to carry you back to CA
  • YOUR DEBT WILL BE GONE IN 10 YEARS ANYWAY, I DONT SEE HOW THIS IS SUCH A PROBLEM
  • Even if you decide not to do law, you can take any job at all in the public sector and the debt will go away after 10 years
  • If you decide not to do law, most employers will at least understand U Mich is a very good school, and will be more open to hiring you


I spelled it out as clearly as I possibly can. If you choose GGU, god help you. You will regret it, but you will have no one to blame but yourself.


This is about right...there are legitimate reasons to choose lesser ranked schools over the t-14 (moving with a wife and kids, already have post-LS job secured, etc.) but they don't seem to be present here.

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sunynp
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby sunynp » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:49 am

For anyone who is interested - here is the link I mentioned to the NY TImes article about Golden Gate merit scholarships. [Note: many other schools including George Washington are included in this article, GGU is not the only school that practices bait and switch merit scholarships.]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/busin ... .html?_r=1

A partial quote regarding someone who had the exact same scholarship as OP.

To keep her grant, all that Ms. Leumer had to do was maintain a grade-point average of 3.0 or above — a B or better. If she dipped below that number at the end of either the first or the second year, the letter explained, she would lose her scholarship for good.

“I didn’t give it much thought,” she said. “I didn’t think it would be a challenge.”

Her grades and test scores were well above the median at Golden Gate, which then languished in the bottom 25 percent of the U.S. News and World Report annual rankings of law schools.

How hard could a 3.0 be? Really hard, it turned out. That might have been obvious if Golden Gate published a statistic that law schools are loath to share: the number of first-year students who lose their merit scholarships. That figure is not in the literature sent to prospective Golden Gate students or on its Web site.

But it’s a number worth knowing. At Golden Gate and other law schools nationwide, students are graded on a curve, which carefully rations the number of A’s and B’s, as well as C’s and D’s, awarded each semester. That all but ensures that a certain number of students — at Golden Gate, it could be in the realm of 70 students this year — will lose their scholarships and wind up paying full tuition in their second and third years.

Why would a school offer more scholarships than it planned to renew?


What does the Dean have to say in response?


On the Golden Gate campus recently, a group of first-year students at risk of losing their scholarships were trying to make sense of the system. Most declined to be identified for this article because criticizing the school seemed, at minimum, undiplomatic. But the phrase “bait and switch” came up a lot. Several assumed that they were given what is essentially a discount to get them in the door.

“I had a friend once who told me that hunting is a sport,” said one Golden Gate merit grant winner who anticipated coming up shy of a 3.0 average. “I said, ‘Hunting is not a sport.’ He said: ‘Sure it’s a sport. It’s just that the animals don’t know they’re in a game.’ That’s what it feels like to be a law student these days. You have no idea you’re in a game.”

The school’s dean, Drucilla Stender Ramey, declined to say exactly how many students would lose their scholarships this year, suggesting that doing so would violate the privacy rights of the students. She acknowledged, though, that lost merit scholarships have been the source of much campus misery.

“Of course some students are disappointed,” she said. “I thought I’d be 5-foot-10, and I’m 4-11. But if you gave students sodium pentothal,” also known as the truth serum, “they’d say, ‘This is a new and very difficult undertaking, the school will support me as best they can and, hopefully, with hard work and good luck, I’ll be able to retain my scholarship.’”


Almost at the end of the article comes a number OP may be able to understand:

Several current Golden Gate students who arrived on merit scholarships say they expect to owe more than $100,000 if — the more pessimistic say “when” — they lose the grants. Tuition is now more than $38,000 a year. Because money is also needed for rent, food and books, the bills climb from there.

Bold added.

Like we've said OP - unlike these students in the article, you can never claim you weren't warned.

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romothesavior
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:44 am

GGU is one of the most atrociously bad schools there is. It has a horrendous reputation and they scam students with their scholarships. Just reading that article suny posted should show you what snakes they are.

OP, if you want to go waste three years, that's totally fine. Im sure it'll be fun explaining to your family why you spent three years getting a JD and have nothing to show for it. But you asked for our advice and we're giving it. Michigan is the winner by a truly enormous amount.

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skers
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby skers » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:59 am

Go to GGU and keep a blog of the experience.

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hoos89
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby hoos89 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:56 am

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Last edited by hoos89 on Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MichelFoucault
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby MichelFoucault » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:03 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:Go to GGU and keep a blog of the experience.


Cr

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MachineLemon
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby MachineLemon » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:14 am

vivian3909 wrote:Right, I get what everyone is saying but I'm just saying, if I do well, I might become a lawyer with no debt. If I don't do well, I'll go do something else with no debt. Also, Mich is awesome but no one seems to know that its a good school outside of the law profession. Might need some convincing to let my family know its a good choice.


This is no guarantee. You may do well, but still end up in a horrible job/no job. The quality and quantity of opportunities at Mich are dramatically better. Also, if you lose your scholarship--a very real possibility given the curve--your JD will not be free and you'll be doubly screwed.

What your family thinks is not relevant. You are an adult making an important career decision. If they have questions, explain to them the significant differences between the T14 and other law schools.

Do not waste three years of your life on a TTTT. Only 30% of 2009 GGU grads found full-time legal employment. See the fourth pie chart:

--LinkRemoved--

asdflawyer
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby asdflawyer » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:21 am

Lincoln wrote:This has to be a troll. Just has to be. And the area of law is completely irrelevant to making this decision.


+1. The way the OP phrased the question just screamed troll to me. If OP wanted people to fall for it at least say T2 full-ride vs t14. That would actually have been believable.

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zanda
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby zanda » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:31 am

I (and many others) took t6 over full ride at UCLA. That's arguably a tough call. Tier 4 vs. T14 is not.

bobbyh1919
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby bobbyh1919 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:39 am

Would've liked to see a poll here. Would've really driven the point home.

lawlcat4179
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby lawlcat4179 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:12 am

Going to Golden Gate would be one of the most atrocious decisions of your life.

If you are seriously petrified of debt, here should be your 5 step plan.

1. Send out an app to Wash U St Louis (deadline is March 1st).
2. Enjoy the full ride they'll inevitably give you.
3. Spend your summers in San Fran so you can move back at graduation
4. Profit
5. Send me a commission check for saving you from making such a terrible decision

But in all seriousness, the OP has to be a troll. No one with numbers that high thinks about GGU.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby TaipeiMort » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:34 am

There could be several good reasons to attend GGU over UMich:

1) You want to become a stay at home dad/mom, and have always wanted a legal education that allow you to do some pro-bono work on the side.

2) You are a Bay Area T1 MBA student who never plans to practice law, but thinks the context will make them a better executive.

3) You have family circumstances that wont let you leave the bay area, can't get Berkeley and Stanford, and don't want to go to Hastings or McGeorge with debt, and want to practice in an area that doesn't require a pedigree, and already have local contacts to help you get off your feet as a solo.

4) You have saved up 60+k of advertising budget. This would allow you to break into personal injury and make $$$. This is especially true if you have ethnic, religious, or other demographic ties that can win you clients, or undergraduate marketing experience.

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sunynp
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby sunynp » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:06 am

TaipeiMort wrote:There could be several good reasons to attend GGU over UMich:

1) You want to become a stay at home dad/mom, and have always wanted a legal education that allow you to do some pro-bono work on the side.

2) You are a Bay Area T1 MBA student who never plans to practice law, but thinks the context will make them a better executive.

3) You have family circumstances that wont let you leave the bay area, can't get Berkeley and Stanford, and don't want to go to Hastings or McGeorge with debt, and want to practice in an area that doesn't require a pedigree, and already have local contacts to help you get off your feet as a solo.

4) You have saved up 60+k of advertising budget. This would allow you to break into personal injury and make $$$. This is especially true if you have ethnic, religious, or other demographic ties that can win you clients, or undergraduate marketing experience.


This is stupid. There is no good reason to go to this terrible school even for free. With stipulations, it is even more than a joke. She can easily end up with at least 5 figures of debt from GGU.

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DaftAndDirect
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby DaftAndDirect » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:38 am

NYC Law wrote:
SnowDude wrote:
NYC Law wrote:If you're serious, going to GGU will be the 2nd worst decision of your life (the worst being the decision to go to law school)

Isn't that a bit extreme? I mean, she would be debt free. That's a plus. Yes, I recognize that Golden Gate is at the bottom of the law school ladder. Isn't graduating debt free with no job prospects better than graduating from a T14 with $200,000 in debt and no job prospects? This is an honest question, by the way.

Or am I wrong, here? :?


Eh, with this drastic of a difference it's an objectively horrible choice to go to GGU.

1) GGU, like almost all other T4s, have tough stipulations on the scholarship. So there's a good chance she'll lose the scholarship anyway.

2) Even if you're going debt free, there are still opportunity costs. If you're going to spend 3 years in law school just to come out without a job you may as well not even go and work instead.

3) Drastic difference in job prospects (obviously). There's a very good chance she'll be able to get a job that pays off the debt or qualifies for LRAP/PSLF coming out of Michigan, so the debt will be a non-issue in 10 years or less.


I am so sick of people using the opportunity cost argument.

a.) It is a WILDLY incalculable cost if you try to apply it to a group since the actual opportunities out of undergrad will vary significantly based on an individual's background.

b.) Proponents of the opportunity cost argument regularly fail to recognize that the money that you use to pay your living expenses should NOT be factored in to opportunity cost. Reason being that you would have these expenses REGARDLESS of whether you're working to earn an income, or investing your time in a legal education (the major exception here being if you are able to minimize expenses by living with your parents after undergrad). When you borrow money to pay for your living expenses, you are essentially choosing to increase the cost (via accrued interest) of your living expenses in exchange for the option to defer cash payment until after graduation. So if you actually have opportunity costs in the first place via decent job prospects, then anywhere from 12 to 25k per year can and should be subtracted from your opportunity cost calculation (figures based on my living expenses in Chicago for the last two years which fell somewhere in this range and is pretty average for young professionals living in non-rich neighborhoods).

Point B TLDR: Taking point A in to consideration, if you actually are in a position to calculate your opportunity costs (e.g., you have opportunities) then perform the following: [(After Tax Salary - Living Expenses) X Three + Accrued Interest On Amount Borrowed for Living Expenses]. That's your opportunity cost for going to law school. (Noted that calculation simplifies away pre-tax benefit of contributions to Roth IRA and 401k)

Sry for the long and very off-topic post but this grinds my f*cking gears.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby TaipeiMort » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:55 am

sunynp wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:There could be several good reasons to attend GGU over UMich:

1) You want to become a stay at home dad/mom, and have always wanted a legal education that allow you to do some pro-bono work on the side.

2) You are a Bay Area T1 MBA student who never plans to practice law, but thinks the context will make them a better executive.

3) You have family circumstances that wont let you leave the bay area, can't get Berkeley and Stanford, and don't want to go to Hastings or McGeorge with debt, and want to practice in an area that doesn't require a pedigree, and already have local contacts to help you get off your feet as a solo.

4) You have saved up 60+k of advertising budget. This would allow you to break into personal injury and make $$$. This is especially true if you have ethnic, religious, or other demographic ties that can win you clients, or undergraduate marketing experience.


This is stupid. There is no good reason to go to this terrible school even for free. With stipulations, it is even more than a joke. She can easily end up with at least 5 figures of debt from GGU.


I was just trying to find some sunlight here. I guess GGU's predatory scholarships negate pretty much every reason to go (except for the Personal injury example). I'm pretty sure she/he could find a non-predatory state school that could give better scholarship stips.

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20130312
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby 20130312 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:58 am

MICHIGAN AND DON'T LOOK BACK.

It amazes me that some people still don't grasp the concept of ITE.

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bk1
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:00 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:There could be several good reasons to attend GGU over UMich:

1) You want to become a stay at home dad/mom You want to stay at home with dad/mom forever

Fixt.

nkp007
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby nkp007 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:19 pm

MichelFoucault wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:Go to GGU and keep a blog of the experience.


Cr


Go to GGU. Blog about experience. Help write a follow-up NY Times article. Use article as part of admissions materials to get into Michigan as a transfer.

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wallflower1987
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby wallflower1987 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:28 pm

I honestly do not believe you that debt is even part of your consideration. You just cannot bring yourself to break up with your family for law school, and you are scared to leave home. As others have mentioned, Michigan is good enough to carry you back to Cali in 3 years if that is what you still want, but it will also provide a lot of other opportunities. Sure, GG is right there and you will never have to leave, but on the other hand, you will never be able to leave, either. Not to mention, you will be much more highly regarded in most circles, including most in SanFran, coming out of Michigan. Consider the starting market salaries of associates at major firms in major cities: it is LIKELY, not possible, that you would be giving up 90-100,000 PER YEAR after school while working the SAME number of billable hours. Give that five years, and that half a million dollar difference (with possible bonuses) would easily wipe out whatever concerns you had about the debt. Assume your career will last 25+ years, and that is several million hypothetical dollars. All of that would be assuming debt assistance, IBR and school programs did not exist, which they do. Coming out of Michigan with even $1 million in debt, your payments would be capped according to your income if you stay with federal loans, which should not be difficult since it is law school and you had no undergrad debt.

Like I said, I do not believe you. You seem scared to take the admittedly big step of moving across the country. I will be doing just that in a few months, most likely, as I will probably wind up at mid Tier 1 or high Tier 2 in NYC or DC... I do not have the numbers to get into Michigan (2.9, 167), so my opportunities will not be as unlimited as yours. If you got into Michigan, go. Do not sit and wonder what to do. Unless you get a similar offer in Cali (highly possible, I would think), there is no decision to be made here. Except to grow up, and that we cannot help you with. It is going to be hard to go, but don't turn down this amazing opportunity out of fear. You are clearly not stupid, judging by your purported GPA and LSAT, but GG would be a very stupid choice for somebody with your numbers and alternatives. Some people will have to go there because they have no other superior choices; your other choice is so superior, this all seems like a joke. Don't miss out because you are afraid of change.

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wallflower1987
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby wallflower1987 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:33 pm

I should add, I am from South Dakota, and our only law school (USD) is Tier 4... however, it dominates the (tiny) South Dakota legal market. GG does not even have that; a degree there is NO guarantee you will be given preferential treatment even in your own back yard. Almost the opposite, some here seem to think. Getting into Michigan at all is huge. Getting a scholarship is bigger. Don't be an idiot. Go to Michigan. If this were Michigan vs. Minnesota or something, fine, debate that. But it isn't. Go to Michigan.

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DaftAndDirect
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Re: Choosing Tier 4 over t14. Should I do it?

Postby DaftAndDirect » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:50 am

wallflower1987 wrote:I honestly do not believe you that debt is even part of your consideration. You just cannot bring yourself to break up with your family for law school, and you are scared to leave home. As others have mentioned, Michigan is good enough to carry you back to Cali in 3 years if that is what you still want, but it will also provide a lot of other opportunities. Sure, GG is right there and you will never have to leave, but on the other hand, you will never be able to leave, either. Not to mention, you will be much more highly regarded in most circles, including most in SanFran, coming out of Michigan. Consider the starting market salaries of associates at major firms in major cities: it is LIKELY, not possible, that you would be giving up 90-100,000 PER YEAR after school while working the SAME number of billable hours. Give that five years, and that half a million dollar difference (with possible bonuses) would easily wipe out whatever concerns you had about the debt. Assume your career will last 25+ years, and that is several million hypothetical dollars. All of that would be assuming debt assistance, IBR and school programs did not exist, which they do. Coming out of Michigan with even $1 million in debt, your payments would be capped according to your income if you stay with federal loans, which should not be difficult since it is law school and you had no undergrad debt.

Like I said, I do not believe you. You seem scared to take the admittedly big step of moving across the country. I will be doing just that in a few months, most likely, as I will probably wind up at mid Tier 1 or high Tier 2 in NYC or DC... I do not have the numbers to get into Michigan (2.9, 167), so my opportunities will not be as unlimited as yours. If you got into Michigan, go. Do not sit and wonder what to do. Unless you get a similar offer in Cali (highly possible, I would think), there is no decision to be made here. Except to grow up, and that we cannot help you with. It is going to be hard to go, but don't turn down this amazing opportunity out of fear. You are clearly not stupid, judging by your purported GPA and LSAT, but GG would be a very stupid choice for somebody with your numbers and alternatives. Some people will have to go there because they have no other superior choices; your other choice is so superior, this all seems like a joke. Don't miss out because you are afraid of change.


kapow




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