Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

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bk1
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:52 pm

hoos89 wrote:
Mr. Somebody wrote:
punkyg0608 wrote:Has anyone tried to use WUSLT to negotiate with their T14? My T14 says they have a policy of negotiating only once, and I don't want to waste my chance when there's a possibility I might get into one of my WL T14s. So in this case, there kind of is something to lose by negotiating. Is there any chance a T14 is going to care about WUSTL money anyway?


It seems like everyone and their mama has Woostle $$$ on TLS. Just a gut feeling but its probably worthless


That's because most of the people on TLS are 168+ LSAT, which I believe guarantees some amount of money. This site is not exactly representative of the general population of law school applicants.


But it is representative of people who get into the T14.

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Samara
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby Samara » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:58 pm

Man, how did I not see this thread before? Extremely relevant to my interests. I am basically considering WUSTL at $84k vs. NU at sticker. Leaning towards NU mostly because I am Chicago market or bust. A lot of personal considerations are in play, but the difference in Chicago biglaw placement is playing a huge role. I got the impression at ASD that WUSTL doesn't get much attention from Chicago firms. Would y'all say that's accurate?

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby hoos89 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:08 pm

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Last edited by hoos89 on Fri Jul 04, 2014 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby punkyg0608 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:42 am

Samara wrote:Man, how did I not see this thread before? Extremely relevant to my interests. I am basically considering WUSTL at $84k vs. NU at sticker. Leaning towards NU mostly because I am Chicago market or bust. A lot of personal considerations are in play, but the difference in Chicago biglaw placement is playing a huge role. I got the impression at ASD that WUSTL doesn't get much attention from Chicago firms. Would y'all say that's accurate?


From what I can tell, if you can get biglaw from WUSTL it will likely be Chicago. NU will definitely have better chances of placing you in Chicago, but you would still have a chance from WUSTL. I remember that one of the alumni on the panel was from somewhere in Chicago, so it's possible. But if you're really Chicago or bust, I'd go with NU if I were you.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby romothesavior » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:56 am

Samara wrote:Man, how did I not see this thread before? Extremely relevant to my interests. I am basically considering WUSTL at $84k vs. NU at sticker. Leaning towards NU mostly because I am Chicago market or bust. A lot of personal considerations are in play, but the difference in Chicago biglaw placement is playing a huge role. I got the impression at ASD that WUSTL doesn't get much attention from Chicago firms. Would y'all say that's accurate?

Chicago is supposedly our top market and we do get a number of Chicago firms at our OCI, but getting biglaw in Chicago ITE is incredibly difficult. If you aren't top 10%, your odds of landing a Chicago NLJ 250 firm are very, very low. Midwestern secondaries and even big markets like NYC/D.C. were willing to dip much farther into our class than Chicago firms. It is still an absolute bloodbath up there for the non-T14 students.

It pains me to say it, but 84k here is nowhere near enough money for you to pass on NU for WUSTL if you are deadset on Chicago.

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Samara
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby Samara » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:27 am

romothesavior wrote:
Samara wrote:Man, how did I not see this thread before? Extremely relevant to my interests. I am basically considering WUSTL at $84k vs. NU at sticker. Leaning towards NU mostly because I am Chicago market or bust. A lot of personal considerations are in play, but the difference in Chicago biglaw placement is playing a huge role. I got the impression at ASD that WUSTL doesn't get much attention from Chicago firms. Would y'all say that's accurate?

Chicago is supposedly our top market and we do get a number of Chicago firms at our OCI, but getting biglaw in Chicago ITE is incredibly difficult. If you aren't top 10%, your odds of landing a Chicago NLJ 250 firm are very, very low. Midwestern secondaries and even big markets like NYC/D.C. were willing to dip much farther into our class than Chicago firms. It is still an absolute bloodbath up there for the non-T14 students.

It pains me to say it, but 84k here is nowhere near enough money for you to pass on NU for WUSTL if you are deadset on Chicago.

Thanks for the insight! I have significant WE, which as I understand can have a big impact, but if 10% is the baseline... :shock: The thing that is pulling me towards WUSTL is my non-legal field of interest, but unless my debt was near zero, it's not a viable career field. Thus, I'm gunning for biglaw and it sounds like NU is the way to go. Massive debt, here I come!

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Samara
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby Samara » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:33 am

punkyg0608 wrote:
Samara wrote:Man, how did I not see this thread before? Extremely relevant to my interests. I am basically considering WUSTL at $84k vs. NU at sticker. Leaning towards NU mostly because I am Chicago market or bust. A lot of personal considerations are in play, but the difference in Chicago biglaw placement is playing a huge role. I got the impression at ASD that WUSTL doesn't get much attention from Chicago firms. Would y'all say that's accurate?


From what I can tell, if you can get biglaw from WUSTL it will likely be Chicago. NU will definitely have better chances of placing you in Chicago, but you would still have a chance from WUSTL. I remember that one of the alumni on the panel was from somewhere in Chicago, so it's possible. But if you're really Chicago or bust, I'd go with NU if I were you.

Yeah, the alumni panel showed that WUSTL is strong enough to make it possible to get back to about anywhere in the country, just with varying degrees of difficulty. One of alums was doing biglaw (I think?) in San Diego, but she had ties, had to network and cold call like crazy, and may have received a diversity boost. Also, who knows what her class rank was. And I think she did law review or something.

Anyway, if law school wasn't so expensive and the market so bimodal, I might take my chances. As it is, NU looks to be the smarter choice. Thanks!

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby Unagi » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:06 am

Have you guys decided what you're gonna do???

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby punkyg0608 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:57 pm

Unagi wrote:Have you guys decided what you're gonna do???


I'm picking WUSTL! I know there are a lot of people on this site who will think I'm crazy, but after a lot of thought I decided WUSTL was the best choice.

My reasons:

- I'd be very happy to get a permanent job in St. Louis or the Midwest.

- I went to http://www.finaid.org/ and saw that if I went to my T-14 I'd end up paying $200,000+. Just knowing on graduation day that I spent a quarter of a million dollars for that degree would've killed me.

- I talked to several St. Louis (NLJ250) lawyers who said they spent big bucks on a T14 and regretted it.

- WUSTL's a damn good school, and turning down $$$ would've haunted me forever if I ever work with a WUSTL grad (which is likely).


I'm not saying my choice is right for everyone, but it's definitely right for me. Also, don't forget that TLS has a T14 bias (though with good reason), so consider your goals and try to talk to actual lawyers! Good luck everyone!

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby woeisme » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:06 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:This topic is too broad to provide helpful advice. There are distinct tiers within the T14, and the decision is going to depend on whether we're looking at YHS, CCN, or MVPBDNCG. Also, the differential between schollys were awarded at these schools and WUSTL scholly.


FTFY.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:16 pm

punkyg0608 wrote:- I talked to several St. Louis (NLJ250) lawyers who said they spent big bucks on a T14 and regretted it.


I know you've already made your decision, but it seems like there are a ton of lawyers in secondary market NLJ250 firms who feel this way. I've become a little skeptical over the years. Some of them seem to assume that they would have made biglaw anyway if they would have gone to a local school for cheap. They probably know lawyers at their firm who did that, and they think of all the extra money they would be saving. I think some others imagine how relaxing and fulfilling their lives would be if they didn't "have" to go biglaw to pay down loans. I don't know. I feel like lawyers in particular are perpetually guilty of thinking how successful / happy they would be in alternate realities. You even see it on here. I think it's much easier to find successful T14 grads with the "should have taken the money" mentality (especially if they are in secondary markets), than non-successful non-T14 grads with the "should have taken the T14" mentality. I'm not saying that one group is larger than the other. It's just that the first group is usually infinitely more visible.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby punkyg0608 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:18 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
punkyg0608 wrote:- I talked to several St. Louis (NLJ250) lawyers who said they spent big bucks on a T14 and regretted it.


I know you've already made your decision, but it seems like there are a ton of lawyers in secondary market NLJ250 firms who feel this way. I've become a little skeptical over the years. Some of them seem to assume that they would have made biglaw anyway if they would have gone to a local school for cheap. They probably know lawyers at their firm who did that, and they think of all the extra money they would be saving. I think some others imagine how relaxing and fulfilling their lives would be if they didn't "have" to go biglaw to pay down loans. I don't know. I feel like lawyers in particular are perpetually guilty of thinking how successful / happy they would be in alternate realities. You even see it on here. I think it's much easier to find successful T14 grads with the "should have taken the money" mentality (especially if they are in secondary markets), than non-successful non-T14 grads with the "should have taken the T14" mentality. I'm not saying that one group is larger than the other. It's just that the first group is usually infinitely more visible.


Good point, there are definitely two sides to the coin. I guess I forgot to include one of the most obvious factors for me though, that I'm not really gunning for Biglaw. At WUSTL I'll still have a shot at Biglaw, but if I don't get it then I'll do something else. If I really wanted Biglaw no matter what, I would've taken my T14.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby T00L » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:24 pm

Ok, I'm going to have to ask for my WUSTL deposit back....

What did it in the end? Absolutely no midwest ties AT ALL.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby rayiner » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:43 pm

This thread should be required reading ITT: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=181723

If I wanted big law, there is no amount of scholarship that would make me take a T25 over a lower T14: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2543436520.

Wash U doesn't make complete employment data available, but historically it's placement has been pretty similar to U Illinois, so let's look at that school: http://www.law.illinois.edu/career-serv ... yment-data

For C/O 2011 Illinois placed 11% in the NLJ250 (13% at Wash U). After 9 months, fully 20% were either unemployed or had an unknown employment status. Only 16% were employed in a firm of 50+ attorneys (the line where, for practical purposes, $100k+ local mid-law starts). Another 5% were in a federal clerkship. 15% were in "business/industry" which is how people who work at temp agencies are usually classified. The school doesn't even break out temporary versus permanent employment. Wash U does (http://law.wustl.edu/career_services/pages.aspx?id=9112) and for C/O 2011 only 60% of the class was employed in full-time, bar passage required permanent positions after 9 months.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:54 pm

Great thread, but the focus on the T-14 is a bit too narrow in my opinion. Should be WashUStL versus the T-18 plus BU, BC & Fordham.

WashUStL could be replaced by Vanderbilt in a similiar thread because neither law school has a significant biglaw market in its backyard. Yet, Duke & Michigan are similiar in this respect & do quite well regarding biglaw placement outside of their home territories.

At what point would anyone targeting Boston take WashUStL over BU or BC ?

Same question for those targeting Los Angeles & accepted to either UCLA or USC ?

Targeting Texas & accepted to University of Texas ?

The problem is that UCLA, USC, BU, BC, Texas & Fordham could easily be preferable over WashUStL with $84,000 ($28,000 per year) scholarship due to the strength of biglaw &, even, non-biglaw placement in their backyards.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby Samara » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:27 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Great thread, but the focus on the T-14 is a bit too narrow in my opinion. Should be WashUStL versus the T-18 plus BU, BC & Fordham.

WashUStL could be replaced by Vanderbilt in a similiar thread because neither law school has a significant biglaw market in its backyard. Yet, Duke & Michigan are similiar in this respect & do quite well regarding biglaw placement outside of their home territories.

At what point would anyone targeting Boston take WashUStL over BU or BC ?

Same question for those targeting Los Angeles & accepted to either UCLA or USC ?

Targeting Texas & accepted to University of Texas ?

The problem is that UCLA, USC, BU, BC, Texas & Fordham could easily be preferable over WashUStL with $84,000 ($28,000 per year) scholarship due to the strength of biglaw &, even, non-biglaw placement in their backyards.

wat

When choosing among peer schools, you pick the one in your region. WUSTL is the only mega-regional school in the Midwest. Why would you compare it to the other T20 schools?

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:32 pm

I have no idea why you are confused.

I am confused, however, by your use of the term "mega-regional". "Wat" does that mean ? :D

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby Samara » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:40 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I have no idea why you are confused.

I am confused, however, by your use of the term "mega-regional". "Wat" does that mean ? :D

In that it places into "the Midwest" rather than just a couple states. Compared to Notre Dame, which is regional, but a decidedly smaller region.

Regardless, why is comparing WUSTL to peer schools a needed conversation? Who is having trouble choosing WUSTL v. BC?

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:43 pm

If you believe that WashUStL is more "mega-regional" than Notre Dame, then that helps explain your confusion. (I guess that means that Notre Dame is, in your terminology "semi mega-regional"--which is a ridiculous assertion.)

Also, if you believe that WashUStL places so well throughout the Mid-West, then you haven't read all the posts in this thread.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby Nova » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:48 pm

Samara wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Great thread, but the focus on the T-14 is a bit too narrow in my opinion. Should be WashUStL versus the T-18 plus BU, BC & Fordham.

WashUStL could be replaced by Vanderbilt in a similiar thread because neither law school has a significant biglaw market in its backyard. Yet, Duke & Michigan are similiar in this respect & do quite well regarding biglaw placement outside of their home territories.

At what point would anyone targeting Boston take WashUStL over BU or BC ?

Same question for those targeting Los Angeles & accepted to either UCLA or USC ?

Targeting Texas & accepted to University of Texas ?

The problem is that UCLA, USC, BU, BC, Texas & Fordham could easily be preferable over WashUStL with $84,000 ($28,000 per year) scholarship due to the strength of biglaw &, even, non-biglaw placement in their backyards.

wat

When choosing among peer schools, you pick the one in your region. WUSTL is the only mega-regional school in the Midwest. Why would you compare it to the other T20 schools?


I would think UMN would fall into the "T20 mega-regional school in the midwest" catagory too.

You make a fair point. This thread is specifically about WUSTL, but the broader question would seem to be T14 @ sticker vs T30 with $$$.

CWolf brings up a legit, albeit different, circumstance.... Where does one draw the line picking WUSTL with $$$ vs the T30 in your prefered region with sticker or a much less substancial scholarship?

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:50 pm

Yes, but the T-30 law schools do not all encompass significant biglaw markets as do BC, BU, USC, UCLA, Fordham & Texas.

P.S. As a sidenote, WashUStL has bought it's way up in the USNews undergraduate rankings through generous scholarship offers. While that strategy, combined with superb undergraduate departments, works for college & university ratings, it is not as easily done with respect to law schools due to the nature of legal hiring & placement.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby T00L » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:58 pm

FWIW - I'm taking Texas $ (oos) over WUSTL $$$. I think its the right call b/c I am interested in biglaw and I have no ties to the midwest, where - from what I gather - employers are very wary when considering outsiders...

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:19 pm

Samara wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:I have no idea why you are confused.

I am confused, however, by your use of the term "mega-regional". "Wat" does that mean ? :D

In that it places into "the Midwest" rather than just a couple states. Compared to Notre Dame, which is regional, but a decidedly smaller region.

Regardless, why is comparing WUSTL to peer schools a needed conversation? Who is having trouble choosing WUSTL v. BC?


I doubt WUSTL is more "MEGA-regional" than Norte Dame. It's OCI list looks just as good. Hell, it's probably not better than Illinois, Wisconsin, or Minnesota (just that people from Minn hardly go to U of I and vice versa). WashU is a rankings overperformer because the school (in all fields) whores itself to USNEWS.

FWIW, I would reserve a term like mega-regional for Vandy, Texas, UCLA/USC. Because they are probably as good as the lower T14 in their home markets, but not everywhere else.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby A shot in the dark » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:25 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Samara wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:I have no idea why you are confused.

I am confused, however, by your use of the term "mega-regional". "Wat" does that mean ? :D

In that it places into "the Midwest" rather than just a couple states. Compared to Notre Dame, which is regional, but a decidedly smaller region.

Regardless, why is comparing WUSTL to peer schools a needed conversation? Who is having trouble choosing WUSTL v. BC?


I doubt WUSTL is more "MEGA-regional" than Norte Dame. It's OCI list looks just as good. Hell, it's probably not better than Illinois, Wisconsin, or Minnesota (just that people from Minn hardly go to U of I and vice versa). WashU is a rankings overperformer because the school (in all fields) whores itself to USNEWS.


Actually, Wash U (I am a student there, for full disclosure) is not quite a rankings whore. It dropped this year in the rankings specifically because it started reporting employment data more honestly. The Dean basically held a meeting to tell students about what was happening- the upshot was that honest reporting was going to be costly in the rankings. So, at least right now, I think Wash U is slightly underrated in that regard.

09042014
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:58 pm

A shot in the dark wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Samara wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:I have no idea why you are confused.

I am confused, however, by your use of the term "mega-regional". "Wat" does that mean ? :D

In that it places into "the Midwest" rather than just a couple states. Compared to Notre Dame, which is regional, but a decidedly smaller region.

Regardless, why is comparing WUSTL to peer schools a needed conversation? Who is having trouble choosing WUSTL v. BC?


I doubt WUSTL is more "MEGA-regional" than Norte Dame. It's OCI list looks just as good. Hell, it's probably not better than Illinois, Wisconsin, or Minnesota (just that people from Minn hardly go to U of I and vice versa). WashU is a rankings overperformer because the school (in all fields) whores itself to USNEWS.


Actually, Wash U (I am a student there, for full disclosure) is not quite a rankings whore. It dropped this year in the rankings specifically because it started reporting employment data more honestly. The Dean basically held a meeting to tell students about what was happening- the upshot was that honest reporting was going to be costly in the rankings. So, at least right now, I think Wash U is slightly underrated in that regard.


I'll give WashU credit for giving out accurate data, but WashU as a Uni is known for rank whoring.




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