Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

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checkster
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby checkster » Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:44 pm

That's a fair point. I do think that a lot of employers are concerned with people wanting to get out of town a couple years into their position. In that respect, MU and SLU kids would have an advantage if they are from the area. But still...the aren't really comparable schools. Fine options if you want to work in MO, sure...but WashU is WashU.

Anyway, back on track. Op has great options. Good luck with wherever you end up.

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punkyg0608
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby punkyg0608 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:42 pm

Checkster and Romothesavior, thanks for all the input! For someone who is almost deadset (maybe 85%) on working in STL after law school, I was wondering if you could comment on the perceptions of STL firms. Would a T14 like Michigan have a strong advantage over WUSTL in tems of placement in STL? Or do you think that a T14 is kind of overqualifying someone for a St. Louis job and therefore WUSTL with $$$ might be a better option?

In other words, do you think it would be worth the money to get a T14 degree if I want to return to St. Louis anyway?

checkster
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby checkster » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:06 pm

If you are sure about STL, then I can't imagine turning down WUSTL with $$$ to pay for T14 unless its the very top. But that's just me...

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romothesavior
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:17 pm

^ I agree. A huge scholarship at WUSTL is worth it for sure if you want STL. Are you from STL though? If not, they may view you as an outsider. I grew up in Illinois, came to WUSTL to stay in STL, and struggled a little bit with STL firms. Makes no sense. I had a lot of STL callbacks and an offer or two, but ended up doing better outside the city and I'm not even working here in the summer.

Also, I disagree that SLU is better than WUSTL for STL.

checkster
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby checkster » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:04 pm

If you are referring to what I said, I did not mean to imply that. Obviously SLU and WashU aren't comparable. Wash gets priority, that should be obvious. I just meant a kid from STL that goes to SLU will be attractive to firms in St. Louis for the fact that it reduces the chance that they will jump ship and head off somewhere else because they don't like the region. Definitely not enough of a factor to top a WashU student though, didn't mean it as that.

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jerichosm
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby jerichosm » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:24 pm

cooooooooool

Edit: No one has been as quick to delete this comment?

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punkyg0608
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby punkyg0608 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:20 am

romothesavior wrote:^ I agree. A huge scholarship at WUSTL is worth it for sure if you want STL. Are you from STL though? If not, they may view you as an outsider. I grew up in Illinois, came to WUSTL to stay in STL, and struggled a little bit with STL firms. Makes no sense. I had a lot of STL callbacks and an offer or two, but ended up doing better outside the city and I'm not even working here in the summer.

Also, I disagree that SLU is better than WUSTL for STL.



Thank you both for being awesome! Yes, I am from St. Louis, so I'm not worried about them doubting my intentions to stay. I'm also not sure how I feel about BigLaw, so I'd rather not be forced into that option because of debt. But the prestige of the T14 is so tempting, and would open up a lot more opportunities (such as my dream of being a Supreme Court Justice :D). It's a tough decision in the end, but your advice is much appreciated!

This is a bit off topic, but do either of you have a sense of how UIUC or IUB graduates with ties to St. Louis would place in STL firms as compared to WUSTL grads? Is WUSTL far and away the best Midwest non-T14 school for St. Louis firms?

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DaftAndDirect
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby DaftAndDirect » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:28 am

Helmholtz wrote:
imadude wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Reading the "T25 Midwest OCI" thread and viewing the bloody carnage contained within would be enough to terrify me about going to school at UIUC/ND/WUSTL. I'm all for keeping debt low, but honestly, when it comes to a law degree, $100k or so is a pretty minimal chunk of potential career earnings. If you're fine with doing midlaw / small law in the Midwest, then I guess a case could be made for WUSTL. I had money at WUSTL when I was applying and I didn't even give it a second thought after a T10 acceptance arrived.


Link?


http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 3&t=161839


My first visit to the T25 midwest OCI thread was through this link from Helmholtz. I'm an Illinois alum and 0L who got a great scholly from Illinois. Reading this thread has basically wiped the school from my mind as a potential consideration over a T10 acceptance.

Granted there is some selection bias contributing to the doom and gloom (e.g., successful OCI candidates being less likely to post firm offers for fear of outting themselves), and it's also true that the anecdotal evidence in the T25 midwest thread is probably hitting a statistical dummy like me harder than it should. However, I for one have narrowed my choices down to accepting six figure debt at one of UCLA or Michigan.

So here's one data-point that's saying no to $$$ at T25 midwest.

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romothesavior
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby romothesavior » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:31 pm

punkyg0608 wrote:Thank you both for being awesome! Yes, I am from St. Louis, so I'm not worried about them doubting my intentions to stay. I'm also not sure how I feel about BigLaw, so I'd rather not be forced into that option because of debt. But the prestige of the T14 is so tempting, and would open up a lot more opportunities (such as my dream of being a Supreme Court Justice :D). It's a tough decision in the end, but your advice is much appreciated!

This is a bit off topic, but do either of you have a sense of how UIUC or IUB graduates with ties to St. Louis would place in STL firms as compared to WUSTL grads? Is WUSTL far and away the best Midwest non-T14 school for St. Louis firms?

I don't. Anecdotally, I know one guy at UIUC working in STL this summer. That's all I've got. They definitely don't compete as well here as WUSTL does.

If you aren't set on biglaw, are from St. Louis, and have a huge scholarship to WUSTL, then I think WUSTL is the way to go. If you were less sure about STL or were really gunning for NYC/DC biglaw, then it becomes a tougher decision. Oh, and unless your T14 is Harvard or Yale, you can probably forget about being a Supreme Court justice. :lol:

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punkyg0608
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby punkyg0608 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:22 pm

romothesavior wrote:
punkyg0608 wrote:Thank you both for being awesome! Yes, I am from St. Louis, so I'm not worried about them doubting my intentions to stay. I'm also not sure how I feel about BigLaw, so I'd rather not be forced into that option because of debt. But the prestige of the T14 is so tempting, and would open up a lot more opportunities (such as my dream of being a Supreme Court Justice :D). It's a tough decision in the end, but your advice is much appreciated!

This is a bit off topic, but do either of you have a sense of how UIUC or IUB graduates with ties to St. Louis would place in STL firms as compared to WUSTL grads? Is WUSTL far and away the best Midwest non-T14 school for St. Louis firms?

I don't. Anecdotally, I know one guy at UIUC working in STL this summer. That's all I've got. They definitely don't compete as well here as WUSTL does.

If you aren't set on biglaw, are from St. Louis, and have a huge scholarship to WUSTL, then I think WUSTL is the way to go. If you were less sure about STL or were really gunning for NYC/DC biglaw, then it becomes a tougher decision. Oh, and unless your T14 is Harvard or Yale, you can probably forget about being a Supreme Court justice. :lol:


Thanks for the advice! I'm thinking I will probably end up choosing WUSTL after all (unless UIUC gives me $$$$)! I don't think this is necessarily the right choice for everyone, especially those who want to end up on the coasts. But you're right, with St. Louis being my end goal anyway there's no justifying the debt of a T14.

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thexfactor
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby thexfactor » Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:54 am

The thing I find funny about WUSTL is that they seem to be working really hard on placement on the east coast. IMO I think they should be focusing on the midwest first. There are plenty of non chicago biglaw/midlaw firms in the midwest that pay a good salary. WUSTL needs to start focusing on those firms by bringing them to OCI. IE WUSTL OCI only had 1 cleveland firm( jones day), 1 Pittsburgh firm and 1 Detroit firm. I think WUSTL should start working on east coast placement only after they dominate the midwest.


While I've gotten some lawyers who were confused about a school called "washington university IN SAINT LOUIS", I also think that WUSTL's "prestige" is increasing and its market penetration is def getting better.

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romothesavior
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby romothesavior » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:26 pm

thexfactor wrote:The thing I find funny about WUSTL is that they seem to be working really hard on placement on the east coast. IMO I think they should be focusing on the midwest first. There are plenty of non chicago biglaw/midlaw firms in the midwest that pay a good salary. WUSTL needs to start focusing on those firms by bringing them to OCI. IE WUSTL OCI only had 1 cleveland firm( jones day), 1 Pittsburgh firm and 1 Detroit firm. I think WUSTL should start working on east coast placement only after they dominate the midwest.

This is a good point and I agree with it. We want so badly to be a national school that we forget to try to dominate our region. Why do schools like BU, Fordham, and GW beat us in job placement? Because they place well into their local market, not because they are more national. What good does it do our classmates if some V10 comes to campus (like Sullivan & Cromwell, which was oh-so-exciting a few years ago :roll: ) if we can't get anyone outside the top 5-10% in there? We should be placing stronger into Kansas City, Ohio, Indianapolis, and even our own St. Louis market. Of course, it helps BU, Fordham, and GW that their home markets are huge, but we could do better in the Midwest.

On the flip side though, I have noticed that we do a good pretty good job of putting students into secondary markets that they have ties to, even without top of the class grades. I think this is because for some of these secondary market firms, they aren't getting flooded with resumes like they are in NYC, D.C., etc. and we are one of the highest ranked schools they are getting resumes from. A secondary biglaw firm in Tampa or San Diego or something isn't getting many resumes from people at WUSTL. I know two people going back to Florida, a good number going back to Dallas (I think almost everyone I know from Texas has a job there), a guy going to San Diego, another going to Colorado, one going to a mid-sized Pittsburgh firm, etc. These firms will usually at least talk to someone with a WUSTL degree and hometown ties.

But thexfactor is right, we need to bolster our presence in the Midwest first and foremost. I think we've done that to some degree. I had offers from some firms that really surprised me, and interviewed with a lot of firms that probably just started doing OCI at WUSTL a few years ago. But there is a lot more work to be done. We should be kicking ass in KC and STL, and should be placing strongly into Indianapolis, Ohio, Milwaukee, etc.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby thexfactor » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:32 pm

romothesavior wrote:
thexfactor wrote:The thing I find funny about WUSTL is that they seem to be working really hard on placement on the east coast. IMO I think they should be focusing on the midwest first. There are plenty of non chicago biglaw/midlaw firms in the midwest that pay a good salary. WUSTL needs to start focusing on those firms by bringing them to OCI. IE WUSTL OCI only had 1 cleveland firm( jones day), 1 Pittsburgh firm and 1 Detroit firm. I think WUSTL should start working on east coast placement only after they dominate the midwest.

This is a good point and I agree with it. We want so badly to be a national school that we forget to try to dominate our region. Why do schools like BU, Fordham, and GW beat us in job placement? Because they place well into their local market, not because they are more national. What good does it do our classmates if some V10 comes to campus (like Sullivan & Cromwell, which was oh-so-exciting a few years ago :roll: ) if we can't get anyone outside the top 5-10% in there? We should be placing stronger into Kansas City, Ohio, Indianapolis, and even our own St. Louis market. Of course, it helps BU, Fordham, and GW that their home markets are huge, but we could do better in the Midwest.

On the flip side though, I have noticed that we do a good pretty good job of putting students into secondary markets that they have ties to, even without top of the class grades. I think this is because for some of these secondary market firms, they aren't getting flooded with resumes like they are in NYC, D.C., etc. and we are one of the highest ranked schools they are getting resumes from. A secondary biglaw firm in Tampa or San Diego or something isn't getting many resumes from people at WUSTL. I now two people going back to Florida, a good number going back to Dallas (I think almost everyone I know from Texas has a job there), a guy going to San Diego, another going to Colorado, one going to a mid-sized Pittsburgh firm, etc.

But thexfactor is right, we need to bolster our presence in the Midwest first and foremost. I think we've done that to some degree. I had offers from some firms that really surprised me, and interviewed with a lot of firms that probably just started doing OCI at WUSTL a few years ago. But there is a lot more work to be done. We should be kicking ass in KC and STL, and should be placing strongly into Indianapolis, Ohio, Milwaukee, etc.


Working on their placement rate out in NY or DC wouldn't help the students below the top 20% or so. They need to start thinking about the people who are at median.
WUSTL should start working for the "99%ers not just the 1%ers"

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punkyg0608
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby punkyg0608 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:13 pm

Is anyone else close to making their decisions on WUSTL vs. T14? I'm really leaning toward WUSTL at this point, pending my ASW visit this weekend. What's everyone else thinking?

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby clarion » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:45 pm

punkyg0608 wrote:Is anyone else close to making their decisions on WUSTL vs. T14? I'm really leaning toward WUSTL at this point, pending my ASW visit this weekend. What's everyone else thinking?


I'm still holding out hope for a scholarship of some sort from GULC or (at the very least, an acceptance) from Cornell. I think if I get into Cornell or get money at GULC of any sort I'll probably have to pass on the 120k from WUSTL :( since I'm really unsure of where I want to practice and could use the flexibility that a T14 provides.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby rad lulz » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:55 pm

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby hoos89 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:57 pm

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby rad lulz » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:58 pm

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby ketchup » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:31 pm

punkyg0608 wrote:Is anyone else close to making their decisions on WUSTL vs. T14? I'm really leaning toward WUSTL at this point, pending my ASW visit this weekend. What's everyone else thinking?


I'm pretty seriously considering Michigan at sticker over $114,000 to Wash U. Considering I'm from St. Louis, I think all of my relatives think I'm crazy. I'm waiting for ASW but any pittance from Michigan would seal the deal.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:37 pm

rad lulz wrote:
hoos89 wrote:120k is a lot to give up for the lower T14.

This, especially for some weird notion of "mobility."

I wouldn't take a lower T14 for mobility, because I don't see them as any more mobile than a T20 like WUSTL. The reason you take a lower T14 over WUSTL (if that is the choice you make) is for better job prospects, and firm job prospects in particular.

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby clarion » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:16 pm

romothesavior wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
hoos89 wrote:120k is a lot to give up for the lower T14.

This, especially for some weird notion of "mobility."

I wouldn't take a lower T14 for mobility, because I don't see them as any more mobile than a T20 like WUSTL. The reason you take a lower T14 over WUSTL (if that is the choice you make) is for better job prospects, and firm job prospects in particular.


Well, I do have ties to South Florida (born and raised and am currently doing my undergrad in N FL), but I'm not sure if I would want to come back down, or work somewhere in the northeast. (At a firm job might I add). I've heard that GULC and Cornell in particular (for some reason?) have really good ties to the South Florida market, but maybe that's mistaken? Additionally, I've heard the S FL market is hard to get into if you're not from either a T14 or a Florida school (particularly UF or FSU). So when I say "portability", that's kind of where I was coming from. But hey. Maybe that's completely off-base.

And like I said, this decision to go to GULC over WUSTL with 120 is primarily based on the stipulation that GULC offers me some money. I did get that scholarship email a few weeks ago or whatever, so I'm hoping that it was a good sign that something is coming my way.

Edit: Also, I'm really interested in International Law (used to be really interested in International AND IP until I began to read more and more about technical degrees being favored for those looking to really succeed in IP) which GULC has really great opportunities for.

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punkyg0608
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby punkyg0608 » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:28 pm

ketchup wrote:
punkyg0608 wrote:Is anyone else close to making their decisions on WUSTL vs. T14? I'm really leaning toward WUSTL at this point, pending my ASW visit this weekend. What's everyone else thinking?


I'm pretty seriously considering Michigan at sticker over $114,000 to Wash U. Considering I'm from St. Louis, I think all of my relatives think I'm crazy. I'm waiting for ASW but any pittance from Michigan would seal the deal.


I'm also from St. Louis, and my family thinks I'm crazy for even considering Michigan at this point. What's your thought process here? I'm guessing you're not interested in returning to St. Louis after law school?

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punkyg0608
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby punkyg0608 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:59 pm

Has anyone tried to use WUSLT to negotiate with their T14? My T14 says they have a policy of negotiating only once, and I don't want to waste my chance when there's a possibility I might get into one of my WL T14s. So in this case, there kind of is something to lose by negotiating. Is there any chance a T14 is going to care about WUSTL money anyway?

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Mr. Somebody
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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby Mr. Somebody » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:00 pm

punkyg0608 wrote:Has anyone tried to use WUSLT to negotiate with their T14? My T14 says they have a policy of negotiating only once, and I don't want to waste my chance when there's a possibility I might get into one of my WL T14s. So in this case, there kind of is something to lose by negotiating. Is there any chance a T14 is going to care about WUSTL money anyway?


It seems like everyone and their mama has Woostle $$$ on TLS. Just a gut feeling but its probably worthless

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Re: Thread for those considering WUSTL with $$$ over T-14

Postby hoos89 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:23 pm

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