Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

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Michigan vs. Texas

Michigan
39
59%
Texas
27
41%
 
Total votes: 66

Matt Damon
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Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby Matt Damon » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:11 am

Tuition at UT would be in state and would reflect a $10,000 Scholarship. Michigan would be at sticker. I want big law. I have only lived in Texas and I think it's kind of lame but I suppose living in Dallas or Houston wouldn't be so awful. Austin would be better but I've read that the market is relatively small. COL and no state income tax is nice. I don't have much experience with big cities (i.e. cities with large legal markets) but the idea of living in one is attractive. From what I've read the culture at Michigan seems more appealing. Overall, I am leaning towards Michigan but the substantial cost difference is the hanger and has definitely caused a few sleepless nights.

Thoughts?

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:20 am

Matt Damon wrote:Tuition at UT would be in state and would reflect a $10,000 Scholarship. Michigan would be at sticker. I want big law. I have only lived in Texas and I think it's kind of lame but I suppose living in Dallas or Houston wouldn't be so awful. Austin would be better but I've read that the market is relatively small. COL and no state income tax is nice. I don't have much experience with big cities (i.e. cities with large legal markets) but the idea of living in one is attractive. From what I've read the culture at Michigan seems more appealing. Overall, I am leaning towards Michigan but the substantial cost difference is the hanger and has definitely caused a few sleepless nights.

Thoughts?


So UT is around 20k/yr and Michigan is around 45k/yr? (Not counting COL, which should be similar, maybe a little more in Austin.) I say it probably comes down to where you want to be after law school. Sounds like you're not too excited about staying in Texas. If you were, I would say that UT is the relatively easy decision. Where do you want to work after law school? What do you want to do?

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:32 am

from what I hear, AA is actually pretty expense and may cost more than Austin. I pay 600 a month and live less than 1.5 miles from the law school. I've heard AA can be a lot more than that. Can any UM people weigh in on that? Also, when thinking about where you want to practice, keep in mind that Texas has zero state income tax and I believe NY and CA are somewhere around 8.5%. NY city also has city taxes. The general COL is also a lot less overall in TX, so your big law paycheck goes a lot further.

Matt Damon
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby Matt Damon » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:44 am

I appreciate the responses. I actually did undergrad at UT so I'm familiar with Austin and the COL. I would echo your curiosity about the COL in AA. Richie had tuition figures roughly correct. Regarding your questions about after law school, I am hoping for a big law job. I've read big gov hiring is largely nonexistent, but at some point in my career I would like to get a gov job due to my interest in regulatory issues (although I'm not sure if this kind of move is possible). Richie also hit it right on head with regards to my lack of enthusiasm towards living in Texas, but I'll add that Texas COL and that fact that my family lives in Texas is a positive.

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AreJay711
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:28 am

nonprofit-prophet wrote:from what I hear, AA is actually pretty expense and may cost more than Austin. I pay 600 a month and live less than 1.5 miles from the law school. I've heard AA can be a lot more than that. Can any UM people weigh in on that?


Well, I was looking at a place for 720 a month about 5 min away. If you want to live a bit further you might be able to get cheaper but most one bedrooms are 700 -- 1000 within comfortable walking distance depending on niceness. The thing is, cheaper places tend to be in less nice areas (as far as full of undergrads) while if you go farther away west for example, they stay the same price but just get nicer and bigger.

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hung jury
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby hung jury » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:32 am

Have you tried negotiating with UT yet?

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outsidethescope
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby outsidethescope » Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:49 am

Matt Damon wrote:Tuition at UT would be in state and would reflect a $10,000 Scholarship. Michigan would be at sticker. I want big law. I have only lived in Texas and I think it's kind of lame but I suppose living in Dallas or Houston wouldn't be so awful. Austin would be better but I've read that the market is relatively small. COL and no state income tax is nice. I don't have much experience with big cities (i.e. cities with large legal markets) but the idea of living in one is attractive. From what I've read the culture at Michigan seems more appealing. Overall, I am leaning towards Michigan but the substantial cost difference is the hanger and has definitely caused a few sleepless nights.

Thoughts?


I am making this decision too! I am not a Texas native, though my parents now live there and it would be nice to live close to them. Because of their move, TX would be a lot cheaper. I have a similar scholarship. However, the "culture shock" of Texas society makes me lean a little more towards Michigan. UT feels more "sink or swim; you're on your own" to me whereas Mich people seem to be more collaborative. Plus, where I grew up is very similar to the midwest, and I think I'd be happier. I also didn't love the area around UT. It might have been because a man dressed in a blue towel followed me for four blocks before I noticed him and I was super creeped out. (This definitely has more to do with my ability to notice people than the safety of Austin, however.)

Have you visited UT? I didn't like the art (small thing; I know.) and the campus just didn't feel right. That said, both times I visited, the campus was empty. I'm sure it feels friendlier when there are people around! Austin is a pretty cool town and being in the capital city has advantages. (one alum I know of ran for a state seat while completing his 1L. WOW!)

Lemme know what you decide! Good luck!

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romothesavior
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:01 am

It really comes down to where you want to work. You want Texas? Stay there. You wanna go to the east coast or something? Go to Michigan.

Also, by all accounts, the "culture" doesn't get much better than Austin. I liked AA, but compared to Austin? I dunno about that.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:12 am

outsidethescope wrote:
I am making this decision too! I am not a Texas native, though my parents now live there and it would be nice to live close to them. Because of their move, TX would be a lot cheaper. I have a similar scholarship. However, the "culture shock" of Texas society makes me lean a little more towards Michigan. UT feels more "sink or swim; you're on your own" to me whereas Mich people seem to be more collaborative. Plus, where I grew up is very similar to the midwest, and I think I'd be happier. I also didn't love the area around UT. It might have been because a man dressed in a blue towel followed me for four blocks before I noticed him and I was super creeped out. (This definitely has more to do with my ability to notice people than the safety of Austin, however.)

Have you visited UT? I didn't like the art (small thing; I know.) and the campus just didn't feel right. That said, both times I visited, the campus was empty. I'm sure it feels friendlier when there are people around! Austin is a pretty cool town and being in the capital city has advantages. (one alum I know of ran for a state seat while completing his 1L. WOW!)

Lemme know what you decide! Good luck!


1) The law school isn't the prettiest. In terms of functionality, I have zero complaints. But if you are someone who needs to be in or around pretty buildings (both inside and out), well UT won't be able to deliver on that front.

2) While I can't compare UT to Michigan, I can say that I found UT to be very helpful my 1L year in terms of figuring things out. The small group of ~25 for 2 class first semester (LRW and one substantive class) and then 1 class second semester (LRW) is helpful for getting a core group you can relate to. (The societies help accomplish that goal too.) The mentor program can be very helpful, though it can depend on your mentor (my mentor was great, which is more the norm). TA's can be really helpful too, if you are in a class where the professor has them (I only know 3 professors, though, that have them).

3) I've never had any issues whatsoever with safety around the law school. I think the worst crime that will occur on occasion would be bikes being stolen.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:22 am

Matt Damon wrote:I appreciate the responses. I actually did undergrad at UT so I'm familiar with Austin and the COL. I would echo your curiosity about the COL in AA. Richie had tuition figures roughly correct. Regarding your questions about after law school, I am hoping for a big law job. I've read big gov hiring is largely nonexistent, but at some point in my career I would like to get a gov job due to my interest in regulatory issues (although I'm not sure if this kind of move is possible). Richie also hit it right on head with regards to my lack of enthusiasm towards living in Texas, but I'll add that Texas COL and that fact that my family lives in Texas is a positive.


A relatively safe bet for you would be to choose UT and try to shoot for a job in Austin/Dallas/Houston (though Austin will be difficult unless you have the grades and you can interview well). Your debt will be less than michigan, but you still have a good shot at biglaw. (You could also try to interview out of state, say NYC, which happens before OCI occurs at UT. I know plenty of people with offers for NYC before going through OCI. But you might hurt your chances a little with TX firms if you strike out in NYC and then tell them you were interviewing outside of TX. TX firms can be paranoid like that.)

Michigan maximizes your chances of biglaw and gives you a better shot at choosing your location. But it's going to be a lot more debt. You'll be committing yourself to shooting for biglaw and working in biglaw until your debt is mostly paid off. If the debt is worth the flexibility, I would choose Michigan. If you are debt averse and/or want to stay in TX, then choose UT. Hard to say much more.

General scholarship advice: I would try to leverage money out of Michigan with the instate rate+money from UT. If that works, then use the money you were able to leverage from michigan to see if UT will offer more. Prob a low chance of either working, but it's worth the effort.

Matt Damon
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby Matt Damon » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:58 am

romothesavior wrote:It really comes down to where you want to work. You want Texas? Stay there. You wanna go to the east coast or something? Go to Michigan.

Also, by all accounts, the "culture" doesn't get much better than Austin. I liked AA, but compared to Austin? I dunno about that.


I've been in Austin for the last 4 years doing my undergrad so I think, or at least I hope, I've experienced the "culture". I agree with you in that Austin is a sweet place to be. I actually was referring culture of the law school. Of course, this is only from what I've gathered from reading.
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
outsidethescope wrote:
I am making this decision too! I am not a Texas native, though my parents now live there and it would be nice to live close to them. Because of their move, TX would be a lot cheaper. I have a similar scholarship. However, the "culture shock" of Texas society makes me lean a little more towards Michigan. UT feels more "sink or swim; you're on your own" to me whereas Mich people seem to be more collaborative. Plus, where I grew up is very similar to the midwest, and I think I'd be happier. I also didn't love the area around UT. It might have been because a man dressed in a blue towel followed me for four blocks before I noticed him and I was super creeped out. (This definitely has more to do with my ability to notice people than the safety of Austin, however.)

Have you visited UT? I didn't like the art (small thing; I know.) and the campus just didn't feel right. That said, both times I visited, the campus was empty. I'm sure it feels friendlier when there are people around! Austin is a pretty cool town and being in the capital city has advantages. (one alum I know of ran for a state seat while completing his 1L. WOW!)

Lemme know what you decide! Good luck!


1) The law school isn't the prettiest. In terms of functionality, I have zero complaints. But if you are someone who needs to be in or around pretty buildings (both inside and out), well UT won't be able to deliver on that front.

2) While I can't compare UT to Michigan, I can say that I found UT to be very helpful my 1L year in terms of figuring things out. The small group of ~25 for 2 class first semester (LRW and one substantive class) and then 1 class second semester (LRW) is helpful for getting a core group you can relate to. (The societies help accomplish that goal too.) The mentor program can be very helpful, though it can depend on your mentor (my mentor was great, which is more the norm). TA's can be really helpful too, if you are in a class where the professor has them (I only know 3 professors, though, that have them).

3) I've never had any issues whatsoever with safety around the law school. I think the worst crime that will occur on occasion would be bikes being stolen.


I actually walked over to the law school between my classes last week. Definitely not impressive, but I don't think that's important to me. Also, I'm def. going to take your advice regarding negotiating.

wolverine10
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby wolverine10 » Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:49 am

I go to Michigan undergrad and COL is rather expensive. I live fairly far and I pay 620 a month. You can easily pay 800-900 a month depending on where you live. That being said I absolutely love Ann Arbor it's amazing.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:20 pm

wolverine10 wrote:I go to Michigan undergrad and COL is rather expensive. I live fairly far and I pay 620 a month. You can easily pay 800-900 a month depending on where you live. That being said I absolutely love Ann Arbor it's amazing.

See, I find this odd. Unless you're living in a really nice flat in a fancy loft, there's no way you should be paying $800-900. I live less than a 3 minute walk from the law school in the heart of campus, and I pay $690/month for my bedroom in a great 3BR place. And that's a higher figure than I've heard from any of my friends (most of whom pay 450-550), unless somebody is living in Zaragon or somewhere like that. My girlfriend lives even closer to the law school and she's only paying $600, utilities included.

Matt Damon
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby Matt Damon » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:47 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
wolverine10 wrote:I go to Michigan undergrad and COL is rather expensive. I live fairly far and I pay 620 a month. You can easily pay 800-900 a month depending on where you live. That being said I absolutely love Ann Arbor it's amazing.

See, I find this odd. Unless you're living in a really nice flat in a fancy loft, there's no way you should be paying $800-900. I live less than a 3 minute walk from the law school in the heart of campus, and I pay $690/month for my bedroom in a great 3BR place. And that's a higher figure than I've heard from any of my friends (most of whom pay 450-550), unless somebody is living in Zaragon or somewhere like that. My girlfriend lives even closer to the law school and she's only paying $600, utilities included.


So it's common to pay between $600-700 for a place walking distance? Also, do people in AA commute by bike? I'll add that in my personal experience with Austin rent, decent places that are in North Campus (walking distance or on the school shuttle route) are between $600-750 although it is conceivable to find something under $600.

Do you think (in terms of grades) a difference in employment outlook exists between the schools for someone sitting around the (a) 25th percentile, (b) median, and (c) 75th percentile?

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:13 pm

Matt Damon wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
wolverine10 wrote:I go to Michigan undergrad and COL is rather expensive. I live fairly far and I pay 620 a month. You can easily pay 800-900 a month depending on where you live. That being said I absolutely love Ann Arbor it's amazing.

See, I find this odd. Unless you're living in a really nice flat in a fancy loft, there's no way you should be paying $800-900. I live less than a 3 minute walk from the law school in the heart of campus, and I pay $690/month for my bedroom in a great 3BR place. And that's a higher figure than I've heard from any of my friends (most of whom pay 450-550), unless somebody is living in Zaragon or somewhere like that. My girlfriend lives even closer to the law school and she's only paying $600, utilities included.


So it's common to pay between $600-700 for a place walking distance? Also, do people in AA commute by bike? I'll add that in my personal experience with Austin rent, decent places that are in North Campus (walking distance or on the school shuttle route) are between $600-750 although it is conceivable to find something under $600.

Do you think (in terms of grades) a difference in employment outlook exists between the schools for someone sitting around the (a) 25th percentile, (b) median, and (c) 75th percentile?


I think that bottom 25% are about the same. Probably a bit better to be median at Michigan (though I've heard rumors about median michigan people struggling pretty badly). The difference for top quarter kids will be that those at UM will have an easier time getting top vault firms, but top 25% at UT shouldn't have trouble getting vault firms either, albeit, not top vault firms.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:24 pm

nonprofit-prophet wrote:I think that bottom 25% are about the same. Probably a bit better to be median at Michigan (though I've heard rumors about median michigan people struggling pretty badly). The difference for top quarter kids will be that those at UM will have an easier time getting top vault firms, but top 25% at UT shouldn't have trouble getting vault firms either, albeit, not top vault firms.


I heavily doubt that bottom quarter at Michigan and UT are "about the same". Although I'm talking more about jobs outside of Texas.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby lawyerwannabe » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:58 pm

Matt Damon wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
wolverine10 wrote:I go to Michigan undergrad and COL is rather expensive. I live fairly far and I pay 620 a month. You can easily pay 800-900 a month depending on where you live. That being said I absolutely love Ann Arbor it's amazing.

See, I find this odd. Unless you're living in a really nice flat in a fancy loft, there's no way you should be paying $800-900. I live less than a 3 minute walk from the law school in the heart of campus, and I pay $690/month for my bedroom in a great 3BR place. And that's a higher figure than I've heard from any of my friends (most of whom pay 450-550), unless somebody is living in Zaragon or somewhere like that. My girlfriend lives even closer to the law school and she's only paying $600, utilities included.


So it's common to pay between $600-700 for a place walking distance? Also, do people in AA commute by bike? I'll add that in my personal experience with Austin rent, decent places that are in North Campus (walking distance or on the school shuttle route) are between $600-750 although it is conceivable to find something under $600.

Do you think (in terms of grades) a difference in employment outlook exists between the schools for someone sitting around the (a) 25th percentile, (b) median, and (c) 75th percentile?


I agree that if you want to work in Texas then choose UT (probably better for Texas market and lower COA). However, UM will be better for every other market and will give you a new experience since you attended UT undergrad but this will come at a much higher price tag.

As to your employment outlook question, I believe that bottom 25% is bad at both schools. Median at UM will still probably give you a fighting chance at BigLaw, while median at UT I am less sure about. And top 25% at both schools will give you solid employment prospects. The only difference being that at UM you will have more opportunities for employment with elite law firms. The same can probably not be said for UT.

Note: voted UM because you seem unsure where you want to end up and it gives you the most flexibility and transportation going forward.

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:07 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
nonprofit-prophet wrote:I think that bottom 25% are about the same. Probably a bit better to be median at Michigan (though I've heard rumors about median michigan people struggling pretty badly). The difference for top quarter kids will be that those at UM will have an easier time getting top vault firms, but top 25% at UT shouldn't have trouble getting vault firms either, albeit, not top vault firms.


I heavily doubt that bottom quarter at Michigan and UT are "about the same". Although I'm talking more about jobs outside of Texas.


I guess what I'm getting at is that they're both screwed. They certainly aren't getting market paying big-law jobs. I would think that any prestige bump bottom quarter at Mich may get is probably a wash since UT has a far better local markets. My hunch is that when you're bottom quarter, access to robust local markets is a bigger benefit than prestige.

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:08 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:
Matt Damon wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
wolverine10 wrote:I go to Michigan undergrad and COL is rather expensive. I live fairly far and I pay 620 a month. You can easily pay 800-900 a month depending on where you live. That being said I absolutely love Ann Arbor it's amazing.

See, I find this odd. Unless you're living in a really nice flat in a fancy loft, there's no way you should be paying $800-900. I live less than a 3 minute walk from the law school in the heart of campus, and I pay $690/month for my bedroom in a great 3BR place. And that's a higher figure than I've heard from any of my friends (most of whom pay 450-550), unless somebody is living in Zaragon or somewhere like that. My girlfriend lives even closer to the law school and she's only paying $600, utilities included.


So it's common to pay between $600-700 for a place walking distance? Also, do people in AA commute by bike? I'll add that in my personal experience with Austin rent, decent places that are in North Campus (walking distance or on the school shuttle route) are between $600-750 although it is conceivable to find something under $600.

Do you think (in terms of grades) a difference in employment outlook exists between the schools for someone sitting around the (a) 25th percentile, (b) median, and (c) 75th percentile?


I agree that if you want to work in Texas then choose UT (probably better for Texas market and lower COA). However, UM will be better for every other market and will give you a new experience since you attended UT undergrad but this will come at a much higher price tag.

As to your employment outlook question, I believe that bottom 25% is bad at both schools. Median at UM will still probably give you a fighting chance at BigLaw, while median at UT I am less sure about. And top 25% at both schools will give you solid employment prospects. The only difference being that at UM you will have more opportunities for employment with elite law firms. The same can probably not be said for UT.

Note: voted UM because you seem unsure where you want to end up and it gives you the most flexibility and transportation going forward.


I agree with all of this.

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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby 83947368 » Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:45 am

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Last edited by 83947368 on Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Texas w/ $ or Michigan at sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:30 pm

nonprofit-prophet wrote:I guess what I'm getting at is that they're both screwed. They certainly aren't getting market paying big-law jobs. I would think that any prestige bump bottom quarter at Mich may get is probably a wash since UT has a far better local markets. My hunch is that when you're bottom quarter, access to robust local markets is a bigger benefit than prestige.


Bottom quarter at Michigan is definitely not screwed for market paying jobs. However, if you mean NYC or DC biglaw then you're probably correct on that.




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