.

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school should I attend?

HLS
17
22%
Chicago
55
72%
UVA
3
4%
Michigan
1
1%
 
Total votes: 76

User avatar
hung jury
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:52 am

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby hung jury » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:57 am

Even if you are in the top end of Harvard grants you'll still be looking at more than 100k difference, even before you factor in COL differences. And grades will be a lot less stressful if you're graduating close to debt free. I have a hard time imagining a scenario that makes Harvard competitive absent a significant tie Cambridge (e.g. spouse with a job there). Particularly since this is a named scholarship at a small school--they will take care of you and employers will see the fancy scholarship.

Take the money.

User avatar
Zelda
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:06 am

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby Zelda » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:47 pm

.
Last edited by Zelda on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Xifeng
Posts: 2562
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:59 pm

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby Xifeng » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:55 pm

UChicago is in Hyde Park, and we actually have a very beautiful campus. And Harvard's campus is also in a kind of urban-ish environment. I'd say visit both, but don't just assume that Harvard=campus and Chicago≠campus.

It sounds like you want to go to Harvard and want people to tell you that's fine. People do do it all the time, so if you really want Harvard more than Chicago, go for it. But definitely visit both before you make any final decisions.

User avatar
Zelda
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:06 am

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby Zelda » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:00 pm

.
Last edited by Zelda on Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby IAFG » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:03 pm

Zelda wrote:I wish it was a little more balanced :), but still.

It's unbalanced for a good reason. You have to understand that six figure debt is incredibly limiting. Even if it's true that HLS can open more doors than Chicago (in reality, they're opening the same doors with slightly different amounts of force), nothing can compete with the freedom of not having six figure debt.

If you're really trying to say you want to spend $100k+ on the experience of being on the Harvard campus, I think you need to stop and look at some loan payment calculators and think about how much money a month for the next 10 years that is worth to you.

User avatar
Xifeng
Posts: 2562
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:59 pm

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby Xifeng » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:05 pm

Zelda wrote:
Xifeng wrote:UChicago is in Hyde Park, and we actually have a very beautiful campus. And Harvard's campus is also in a kind of urban-ish environment. I'd say visit both, but don't just assume that Harvard=campus and Chicago≠campus.

It sounds like you want to go to Harvard and want people to tell you that's fine. People do do it all the time, so if you really want Harvard more than Chicago, go for it. But definitely visit both before you make any final decisions.


So the law school at Chicago isn't only the big building they show in all of their flyers etc...? Or are you talking about the undergrad campus.


That's the law school building, but the main campus is like 5 minutes away. People go there to study and whatnot all the time, it's really accessible/awesome to get away from the law school building sometimes.

User avatar
Zelda
Posts: 193
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:06 am

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby Zelda » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:08 pm

IAFG wrote:
Zelda wrote:I wish it was a little more balanced :), but still.

It's unbalanced for a good reason. You have to understand that six figure debt is incredibly limiting. Even if it's true that HLS can open more doors than Chicago (in reality, they're opening the same doors with slightly different amounts of force), nothing can compete with the freedom of not having six figure debt.

If you're really trying to say you want to spend $100k+ on the experience of being on the Harvard campus, I think you need to stop and look at some loan payment calculators and think about how much money a month for the next 10 years that is worth to you.


This is good advice. Thank you.

HLS doesn't even have the financial aid application available yet. I will fill it out the day I get it becomes available, but I know I am not going to have a lot of time WITH all of the information to make a decision. I will only have 2 days after Chicago's ASW.

User avatar
Doorkeeper
Posts: 4872
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:25 pm

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby Doorkeeper » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:15 pm

IAFG wrote:
Zelda wrote:I wish it was a little more balanced :), but still.

It's unbalanced for a good reason. You have to understand that six figure debt is incredibly limiting. Even if it's true that HLS can open more doors than Chicago (in reality, they're opening the same doors with slightly different amounts of force), nothing can compete with the freedom of not having six figure debt.

If you're really trying to say you want to spend $100k+ on the experience of being on the Harvard campus, I think you need to stop and look at some loan payment calculators and think about how much money a month for the next 10 years that is worth to you.


I agree with all of this. Anything that is attainable with a Harvard JD is also attainable with a Chicago JD: V10, academia, prestigious clerkships, fed gov, etc. That $200k difference is really just paying for adjusting the odds a bit, plus the prestige. It's up to you whether that's worth it for you, but I would be hard pressed to be able to justify such a choice.

Obviously this chances if Harvard gives you significant fin aid, but that is yet to be seen.

Transferthrowaway
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:40 am

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby Transferthrowaway » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:27 pm

Xifeng wrote:
Zelda wrote:
Xifeng wrote:UChicago is in Hyde Park, and we actually have a very beautiful campus. And Harvard's campus is also in a kind of urban-ish environment. I'd say visit both, but don't just assume that Harvard=campus and Chicago≠campus.

It sounds like you want to go to Harvard and want people to tell you that's fine. People do do it all the time, so if you really want Harvard more than Chicago, go for it. But definitely visit both before you make any final decisions.


So the law school at Chicago isn't only the big building they show in all of their flyers etc...? Or are you talking about the undergrad campus.


That's the law school building, but the main campus is like 5 minutes away. People go there to study and whatnot all the time, it's really accessible/awesome to get away from the law school building sometimes.

+1 to this. This reading room is a less than 5-minute walk away. http://i.imgur.com/PXU0s.jpg

User avatar
Emma.
Posts: 2401
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:57 pm

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby Emma. » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:40 pm

Flash wrote:
sunynp wrote:
Flash wrote:
sunynp wrote:I don't know why this is even a question. Do you want to graduate school with debt or do you want to be debt free. This question in various permutations comes up frequently - I admit I am amazed that people would turn down a prestigious named full scholarship at Chicago or Columbia. The fact that people even question what to do make me wonder how they possibly qualified for these scholarships in the first place. Do people really not understand the benefit of these scholarships? The Rubenstein, like the Hamilton, is a very known scholarship that you can boast about on your resume.

But maybe I am so debt adverse I just can't do the calculation that would justify spending any significant money at all when you don't need to (at a T6).

The point isn't that you may be making a biglaw salary some day so you can pay back the loans. The point is why would you do that to your future self? Think how much better your life will be when you can save the 1000 a month and your bonuses instead of spending it on loans. Having a biglaw salary without loans makes your life so much easier from day one. And, if you don't want biglaw, you don't have to take it simply to repay loans.

Further, should the bottom fall out of the economy again, you won't have to freak out about jobs just so you don't default on loans. Law firms seem to be improving, but I don't think stability over the next 5 -10 years is a sure thing.

The difference is at CC you have a not insignificant chance of striking out and ending up with a shitty job. At Harvard you basically will only strike out if you have a horrible personality, and even then you'll likely get a job.

Also, the lower stress that comes with not having real grades at H should be worth something.


If you don't owe any money, you don't even have to practice law if you decide you hate it. The pressure on jobs is, in large part, to pay back money. Without that pressure you can take a job you want - I don't believe many people would take biglaw as a lifestyle if they didn't owe loans. Some would, but not everyone.

Look at it this way - the Rubenstein money is equivalent to real cash money, not hypothetical money based on what job you might get or what stress you might feel in school. I know I said this in another thread, but a prudent financial advisor would never recommend a person turn down such a scholarship - even if the person had a trust fund to cover Harvard. It is so foolish to spend money this way. Money once spent is impossible to get back, you can never really catch up. You have to look on what you would otherwise do with the money and how much it would be worth if invested over a number of years.

It isn't lower stress if you have to pay back real money for years. This thread is a chicago grade who got biglaw and is planning on spending more than 5,000 a month on loan repayment, think he would have taken the Rubenstein?

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=172143#p4959727

Look at it this way.
Take Ruby end up bottom 10% at CC=end up in shitlaw making 50k/year. After 3 years you've made around 150k.
Go to H with no grades and no real way to differentiate below median, even if you end up in bottom 10% still most likely end up in biglaw making 160k/year to start. After 3 years you've made around 500k with lockstep and bonuses.

Even with 200k in debt, after 3 years you would still be +150k by going to Harvard over the Ruby.

I'm not saying any of this is likely to happen just that it's possible and worth considering.


There might be no way to differentiate students below median at HLS in a single class, but in the aggregate you definitely can since a median GPA is a mix of P's and H's. This could be wrong, but from what I've heard from friends at HLS, if you end up with all P's at the end of 1L year then OCI is hardly smooth sailing.

User avatar
Bildungsroman
Posts: 5548
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:42 pm

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:44 pm

Xifeng wrote:
Zelda wrote:
Xifeng wrote:UChicago is in Hyde Park, and we actually have a very beautiful campus. And Harvard's campus is also in a kind of urban-ish environment. I'd say visit both, but don't just assume that Harvard=campus and Chicago≠campus.

It sounds like you want to go to Harvard and want people to tell you that's fine. People do do it all the time, so if you really want Harvard more than Chicago, go for it. But definitely visit both before you make any final decisions.


So the law school at Chicago isn't only the big building they show in all of their flyers etc...? Or are you talking about the undergrad campus.


That's the law school building, but the main campus is like 5 minutes away. People go there to study and whatnot all the time, it's really accessible/awesome to get away from the law school building sometimes.

True that. And I think "5 minutes away" is still overstating it. The law school is on the same block as a few other graduate buildings, all of which are basically a two minute walk from the main campus (you just have to walk across the Midway, which is a nice grassy area where I think they once had a World's Fair). The main undergrad library is about a 5 minute walk from the law school. And you're likely to live north of the main campus anyway like most other students here, so you can make the whole campus a part of your life if you want to since you'll be passing through it every day. Oh, and that Midway you're crossing to get to and from the law school? Yeah, there's a big ice skating rink on it. 8)

I went to a big suburban public university and UChi definitely feels like a real campus to me; it just depends on how much time you decide to spend on campus but not in the law school. There's even on-campus graduate housing like New Grad (which some law students have told me is actually a pretty good option) if you really want that campus feel, though for a city Hyde Park is very affordable and you can get some really nice digs on the cheap, especially if you're willing to live with a roommate.

User avatar
soj
Posts: 7735
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:10 pm

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby soj » Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:54 pm

Emma. wrote:There might be no way to differentiate students below median at HLS in a single class, but in the aggregate you definitely can since a median GPA is a mix of P's and H's. This could be wrong, but from what I've heard from friends at HLS, if you end up with all P's at the end of 1L year then OCI is hardly smooth sailing.

I've heard conflicting stories about this. One HLS student told me grades don't seem to matter much at all at OCI unless you're at the very top (almost all Hs) or the very bottom (often with LPs, which apparently are very rare). According to him, people with straight Ps did as well as those with a few Hs, and it all came down to interviewing skills, ties, etc. I agree that attending HLS doesn't guarantee OCI success, but if he's right, one wouldn't have to worry as much about grades at HLS as one might at Chicago.

I'm skeptical that having a named scholarship means much beyond the obvious and immense financial benefits. Why would employers treat you differently just because you have a named scholarship? Doesn't having a named scholarship just mean you had good numbers as a law school applicant? I would think employers would just focus on your law school grades. On the other hand, having basically no debt is great insurance and I'd be much less nervous heading into OCI knowing I wouldn't be completely fucked if I screwed up.

User avatar
Emma.
Posts: 2401
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:57 pm

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby Emma. » Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:09 pm

soj wrote:
Emma. wrote:There might be no way to differentiate students below median at HLS in a single class, but in the aggregate you definitely can since a median GPA is a mix of P's and H's. This could be wrong, but from what I've heard from friends at HLS, if you end up with all P's at the end of 1L year then OCI is hardly smooth sailing.

I've heard conflicting stories about this. One HLS student told me grades don't seem to matter much at all at OCI unless you're at the very top (almost all Hs) or the very bottom (often with LPs, which apparently are very rare). According to him, people with straight Ps did as well as those with a few Hs, and it all came down to interviewing skills, ties, etc. I agree that attending HLS isn't a guarantee of OCI success, but if he's right, one wouldn't have to worry as much about grades at HLS as one might at Chicago.

I'm skeptical that having a named scholarship means much beyond the obvious and immense financial benefits. Why would employers treat you differently just because you have a named scholarship? Doesn't having a named scholarship just mean you had good numbers as a law school applicant? I would think employers would just focus on your law school grades. On the other hand, having basically no debt is great insurance and I'd be much less nervous heading into OCI knowing I wouldn't be completely fucked if I screwed up.


My only real answer to this is that while no one can really prejudge how they are going to do as a 1L, if you had the drive/skills/motivation to end up with an application what was worthy of a Rubenstein, then there is little chance you are going to end up near the bottom of the class. I agree that the scholarship mostly amounts to the immense financial benefits, but with a high likelihood of solid grades, no debt, and the extra bling of the named scholarship on your resume (even if it does nothing more than serve as a tiebreaker between you and another equally qualified job applicant), I can't really see anyone regretting the choice to take the Ruby over HLS.

minnesotamike
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:23 am

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby minnesotamike » Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:37 pm

.
Last edited by minnesotamike on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
Posts: 10439
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: Harvard v. Rubenstein

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:32 pm

My initial reaction was to suggest that Chicago would be the wiser choice based on financial concerns, but I voted for Harvard because that seems to be your dream school. Also, since you are from New England & Harvard's campus & location are great, you may be more likely to maintain a close, life-long relationship based on law school events, reunions & continuing legal education seminars. Plus, you are likely to receive some financial aid. In short, Harvard because it's what you really want & is likely to be a wise investment.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Ithinkican, jjcorvino, somebodyelse, vm223 and 6 guests