Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

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Bronck
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby Bronck » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:46 pm

TUP wrote:For the sake of comparison, below is the average of NLJ250 for 2007-2010 plus the average of A3 for 2007-2009.

Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%

I'd be interested in what the rest of those SAs turned into at NYU if not big law or clerkships.


The above SA data is much more relevant than the data you posted. The reality is that ITE there's a statistically significant (and somewhat large) gap between SA placement from CCN and MVP.

ETA: To put it in another way, I would feel much safer at median at CCN [getting a V100 position] than median at MVP.

r6_philly
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby r6_philly » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:09 pm

Bronck wrote:
TUP wrote:For the sake of comparison, below is the average of NLJ250 for 2007-2010 plus the average of A3 for 2007-2009.

Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%

I'd be interested in what the rest of those SAs turned into at NYU if not big law or clerkships.


The above SA data is much more relevant than the data you posted. The reality is that ITE there's a statistically significant (and somewhat large) gap between SA placement from CCN and MVP MV.

ETA: To put it in another way, I would feel much safer at median at CCN [getting a V100 position] than median at MVP MV.


Minor edit.

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TUP
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby TUP » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:38 pm

Bronck wrote:
TUP wrote:For the sake of comparison, below is the average of NLJ250 for 2007-2010 plus the average of A3 for 2007-2009.

Chicago: 74%
Stanford: 73%
Columbia: 73%
Penn: 71%
Harvard: 71%
Yale: 67%
Northwestern: 67%
NYU: 66%
Virginia: 65%
Duke: 64%
Cornell: 64%
Michigan: 62%
Berkeley: 60%
Georgetown: 50%

I'd be interested in what the rest of those SAs turned into at NYU if not big law or clerkships.


The above SA data is much more relevant than the data you posted. The reality is that ITE there's a statistically significant (and somewhat large) gap between SA placement from CCN and MVP.

ETA: To put it in another way, I would feel much safer at median at CCN [getting a V100 position] than median at MVP.


What SA data? The school-reported estimates in the Reuters article?

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Bronck
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby Bronck » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:44 pm

TUP wrote:
What SA data? The school-reported estimates in the Reuters article?


Yes... the leaked OCI threads on here (and autoadmit) corroborate the data. It's much better to look at this than, e.g., the NLJ data coming out later this year (since that covers students who interviewed in 2009).

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TUP
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby TUP » Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:58 pm

Bronck wrote:
TUP wrote:
What SA data? The school-reported estimates in the Reuters article?


Yes... the leaked OCI threads on here (and autoadmit) corroborate the data. It's much better to look at this than, e.g., the NLJ data coming out later this year (since that covers students who interviewed in 2009).


Isn't there just a handful of V10 firms with data posted for the NYC offices so far? The Reuters estimates for 2009 from that article are also much higher than what ended up in NLJ250+A3, which is why I'd question the data if I were a 0L. I'd favor third-party data, and place more weight on the 2011 NLJ250 numbers when they come out.

In the end locking yourself into the extra 3+ years of big law for a 10% bump in placement doesn't seem worth it, especially if youve never worked a 60+ hours/week corp job. Which isn't to say people don't do it and wind up miserable.

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Bronck
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby Bronck » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:04 pm

TUP wrote:
Bronck wrote:
TUP wrote:
What SA data? The school-reported estimates in the Reuters article?


Yes... the leaked OCI threads on here (and autoadmit) corroborate the data. It's much better to look at this than, e.g., the NLJ data coming out later this year (since that covers students who interviewed in 2009).


Isn't there just a handful of V10 firms with data posted for the NYC offices so far? The Reuters estimates for 2009 from that article are also much higher than what ended up in NLJ250+A3, which is why I'd question the data if I were a 0L. I'd favor third-party data, and place more weight on the 2011 NLJ250 numbers when they come out.

In the end locking yourself into the extra 3+ years of big law for a 10% bump in placement doesn't seem worth it, especially if youve never worked a 60+ hours/week corp job. Which isn't to say people don't do it and wind up miserable.


Yes, but we have leaked OCI data from people who interviewed in 2010 as well. And so far, it looks like CLS and NYU are placing ~14% into the subset of V10 firms that have released their Summer 2012 classes (missing Wachtell, Weil, Covington, and K&E if I'm not mistaken).

You're not reading the data correctly. The Reuters data is for people who had SAs. A lot of people were no offered after the crash, which is why the subsequent NLJ data is lower. The 2011 NLJ numbers are not going to mean very much for people trying to decide between schools. They should, instead, focus on the leaked SA data.

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TUP
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby TUP » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:16 pm

Bronck wrote:
TUP wrote:
Bronck wrote:
TUP wrote:
What SA data? The school-reported estimates in the Reuters article?


Yes... the leaked OCI threads on here (and autoadmit) corroborate the data. It's much better to look at this than, e.g., the NLJ data coming out later this year (since that covers students who interviewed in 2009).


Isn't there just a handful of V10 firms with data posted for the NYC offices so far? The Reuters estimates for 2009 from that article are also much higher than what ended up in NLJ250+A3, which is why I'd question the data if I were a 0L. I'd favor third-party data, and place more weight on the 2011 NLJ250 numbers when they come out.

In the end locking yourself into the extra 3+ years of big law for a 10% bump in placement doesn't seem worth it, especially if youve never worked a 60+ hours/week corp job. Which isn't to say people don't do it and wind up miserable.


Yes, but we have leaked OCI data from people who interviewed in 2010 as well. And so far, it looks like CLS and NYU are placing ~14% into the subset of V10 firms that have released their Summer 2012 classes (missing Wachtell, Weil, Covington, and K&E if I'm not mistaken).

You're not reading the data correctly. The Reuters data is for people who had SAs. A lot of people were no offered after the crash, which is why the subsequent NLJ data is lower. The 2011 NLJ numbers are not going to mean very much for people trying to decide between schools. They should, instead, focus on the leaked SA data.


Where is the data for lower T14 SAs other than M? Not doubting your claims, just wondering because the gap hasn't been that significant for the last half decade.

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smaug_
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Postby smaug_ » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:23 pm

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Last edited by smaug_ on Sat Aug 11, 2012 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:33 pm

I think this year the lower V100 and regional offices begun hiring in earnest again. At NU the strike out rate is pretty low. In one section of 54 people ~83% of the non-PI; nonJD/MBA students have a firm lined up.

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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby ahnhub » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:47 pm

TUP wrote: Where is the data for lower T14 SAs other than M? Not doubting your claims, just wondering because the gap hasn't been that significant for the last half decade.


It's gonna be hard to get definitive answers. Believe me, I'm facing an NYU/Mich choice with job prospects as my top priority, and I'm having trouble figuring things out. But it seems pretty safe to say that of c/o of 2012 Chicago had 77% doing summer SAs, NYU had 70%, and Michigan had 55%. So does this mean CCN blows MVPCDNG out of the water? Well...

-General consensus on NU and Penn OCI threads seemed to be things went significantly better this year. Median gave you a good shot at getting Biglaw.
-Someone leaked that Duke put 65%+ of its class into SA positions at 2009 OCI, i.e.: the Really Horrible Year. That would be comparable to Columbia and NYU for that year. And yet Duke only had 38% of grads get NLJ 250 in 2010, which was way worse than any of its T-14 peers.
-Consider that for the classes of 2007-2008, the truly boom years when it was very easy to get Biglaw at any T-14 school, Michigan only put 50-55% of its class into NLJ 250. Historically big city schools with a private sector focus have always had better stats when it comes to metrics like NLJ 250 or NLJ 250+clerkships: Penn, Cornell, NYU and Columbia, NU, Chicago. And yet most people on TLS would advise someone to pick Michigan over Cornell. Heck, I've seen polls where Michigan$$ won convincingly over Chicago sticker.
-Because NY and V-10 type firms started hiring again so quickly while other markets stayed dead, NYC-centered schools probably fared better the last couple of years at OCI. As the market thaws that gap may close a bit.

So yeah, it's complicated. I think CCN probably does have a placement advantage that you have to take into consideration, but I don't think it's as massive as the numbers may indicate.

I also think T-14 schools should start posting recent summer job data like Chicago, Michigan and NYU have, instead of letting us rely on two-year old employment data.

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TUP
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby TUP » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:23 pm

In any event at least things are looking up. I just know staring down 80k debt is stressful as a 1L and I can't imagine how those looking at 200k+ feel when big law is the only way to pay it off. I'm just saying exercise caution.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:31 pm

It's not that complicated. Go to HYS regardless (basically). Go to CCN over the schools ranked lower if you want to work in NYC (or UChi if you want to work in Chicago). Other than that go to the top 14 that has the strongest rep in your region or that offers the most money.

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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby ahnhub » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:27 am

Yeah but what does "strongest rep in region" mean? So if you want to work in Atlanta go to UVA or Duke over Columbia? People would probably have very different opinions on which of those schools would provide the biggest boost, or whether any of them would provide any relative boost.

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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby smokeylarue » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:56 am

The way I view is this. Most people paying sticker at CCN, you're probably in line for at most 60k (over all 3 years) in scholarships. For example, 54k seems very common for the guy with a 172 and 3.8 GPA at Michigan. You're still 140k in debt vs. 200k in debt. Significant, but honestly if you don't get BigLaw you're kinda fcked either way. So me personally, would go to the school with best chance of BigLaw.

Obviously if my scholarships were significantly higher, that would make the debate more interesting.

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skers
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby skers » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:53 am

Yeah, what Bruce Wayne said. If one wants to practice in the South there's a persuasive argument for Duke and UVA. If one wants NYC big law there's a persuasive argument for Penn. If one wants West Coast then Boalt. Minimize debt load, wants big law but doesn't care about debt load, and chief interest is telling everyone you go to a school that looks like Hogwarts then Michigan, Cornell is for the gunning for DLA Piper NYC big law or bust types who have profound enough 0L alcoholism to survive Shithaca and are pretty sure they wouldn't jump if below median, and CCN is for prestige whores and those who want to maximize jerb opportunities despite additional cost.

Tl;dr of every chances thread, it comes down to your own personal priorities.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:30 pm

ahnhub wrote:Yeah but what does "strongest rep in region" mean? So if you want to work in Atlanta go to UVA or Duke over Columbia? People would probably have very different opinions on which of those schools would provide the biggest boost, or whether any of them would provide any relative boost.

Of course go to UVA or Duke over Columbia for Atlanta. Although none of the 3 will give you a great shot. Lol why did you say that like it was a crazy statement or sonething?

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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby handsonthewheel » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:52 pm

This "reputation in the region" stuff seems really to be over-weighed. I think the more important thing is to see where the firms go for OCI and where they have historically hired from. If those mean "reputation," then yes.

To think a firm is going to be in the South and look at a Columbia student and say "who in the hell is this" is a bit ridiculous. There may be questions about why the student wants to work there, but that's a matter of showing interest rather than reputation. I also think that's only the case for cities that are generally not considered as the desirable place to be.

So, if you want to practice in the South, it makes sense to go to a school in the area because more firms from the area are likely going to attend OCI, which means more chances in the area.

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skers
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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby skers » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:28 pm

handsonthewheel wrote:This "reputation in the region" stuff seems really to be over-weighed. I think the more important thing is to see where the firms go for OCI and where they have historically hired from. If those mean "reputation," then yes.

To think a firm is going to be in the South and look at a Columbia student and say "who in the hell is this" is a bit ridiculous. There may be questions about why the student wants to work there, but that's a matter of showing interest rather than reputation. I also think that's only the case for cities that are generally not considered as the desirable place to be.

So, if you want to practice in the South, it makes sense to go to a school in the area because more firms from the area are likely going to attend OCI, which means more chances in the area.


That's not at all what he is saying.

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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby handsonthewheel » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:56 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:
handsonthewheel wrote:This "reputation in the region" stuff seems really to be over-weighed. I think the more important thing is to see where the firms go for OCI and where they have historically hired from. If those mean "reputation," then yes.

To think a firm is going to be in the South and look at a Columbia student and say "who in the hell is this" is a bit ridiculous. There may be questions about why the student wants to work there, but that's a matter of showing interest rather than reputation. I also think that's only the case for cities that are generally not considered as the desirable place to be.

So, if you want to practice in the South, it makes sense to go to a school in the area because more firms from the area are likely going to attend OCI, which means more chances in the area.


That's not at all what he is saying.


My point stands.

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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:28 pm

handsonthewheel wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:
handsonthewheel wrote:This "reputation in the region" stuff seems really to be over-weighed. I think the more important thing is to see where the firms go for OCI and where they have historically hired from. If those mean "reputation," then yes.

To think a firm is going to be in the South and look at a Columbia student and say "who in the hell is this" is a bit ridiculous. There may be questions about why the student wants to work there, but that's a matter of showing interest rather than reputation. I also think that's only the case for cities that are generally not considered as the desirable place to be.

So, if you want to practice in the South, it makes sense to go to a school in the area because more firms from the area are likely going to attend OCI, which means more chances in the area.


That's not at all what he is saying.


My point stands.


As the UChicago guy noted, that was one of the most egregious strawmen I have ever seen. The point is that going to Columbia isn't going to give someone a notable leg up on Atlanta firm jobs than UVA or Duke---and is definitely not worth someone paying additional debt for if that's their desire. This scenario plays itself out in various markets throughout the country when considering the OP's question (NU vs. NYU for Chicago etc.). The only exception to that rule would be GULC vs. a higher ranked top 14 for DC--and I'm not saying that to bash GULC before someone pounces on that statement. Your point doesn't stand at all.

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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby skers » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:34 pm

Part of a school's rep in an area establishes ties to working in that area. Sure things like being from an area and working in an area over 1L summer can help establish these ties, but you're going to be fighting an uphill battle against someone going to school in those areas. In some areas (like PNW and Denver) it's extremely hard to get jobs even if you're from those areas if you went somewhere else for school. Look through some of last year's OCI threads. There are people from T6 who struck out in markets like Texas. We're not saying it's impossible to get jobs in off-market locations, just that generally you'll be fighting an uphill battle when doing so with no probable benefit.

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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby handsonthewheel » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:39 pm

BruceWayne wrote:As the UChicago guy noted, that was one of the most egregious strawmen I have ever seen. The point is that going to Columbia isn't going to give someone a notable leg up on Atlanta firm jobs than UVA or Duke---and is definitely not worth someone paying additional debt for if that's their desire. This scenario plays itself out in various markets throughout the country when considering the OP's question (NU vs. NYU for Chicago etc.). The only exception to that rule would be GULC vs. a higher ranked top 14 for DC--and I'm not saying that to bash GULC before someone pounces on that statement. Your point doesn't stand at all.


That wasn't the intended crux of my argument. My point is that using the word "reputation" is a misnomer in this context. Why one should go to UVA/Duke over Columbia for Atlanta isn't some fuzzy notion that the firms have of a "reputation" for UVA/Duke students. It is pragmatic, the firms attend OCI at the proximate schools with more frequency and have more candidates for the jobs from those schools because students should, to some degree, attend school in the region they want to be in. It's likely far less common that people who want to work in Atlanta attend Columbia than UVA or Duke.

It may be a semantic issue but I get the feeling that 0L's and the TLS echo-chamber reverberate the idea that reputation means something else while it really is more pragmatic considerations.

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Re: Why t6 over $$ from t7-14?

Postby handsonthewheel » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:41 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:Part of a school's rep in an area establishes ties to working in that area. Sure things like being from an area and working in an area over 1L summer can help establish these ties, but you're going to be fighting an uphill battle against someone going to school in those areas. In some areas (like PNW and Denver) it's extremely hard to get jobs even if you're from those areas if you went somewhere else for school. Look through some of last year's OCI threads. There are people from T6 who struck out in markets like Texas. We're not saying it's impossible to get jobs in off-market locations, just that generally you'll be fighting an uphill battle when doing so with no probable benefit.


That's exactly my point. That is not "reputation."

Hell, I picked-up a random OCI interview with a PNW firm and I spent half of the interview defending my interest in working there (which I didn't have any, but I am at least functional at faking authenticity).

That isn't the "reputation" that UW is better or more liked, it's pragmatic in regard to the applicant.

Edit:

This is a basic professional issue. Try applying for any job in a region that you've never lived in or been to without a compelling reason, such as it being the one and only place where that job exists. It's not likely going to be convincing. What it shows is that someone is shooting from the hip or simply following what they believe to be is a higher probability. An employer has to invest in the person they hire and when someone is making decisions based on where there is less competition, the likelihood of recruiting a great long-term employee under those circumstances are diminished.




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