Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

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AmoryB
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Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby AmoryB » Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:50 pm

To preface this post, I know that biglaw placement in NYC has been discussed in detail on TLS and I have searched previous threads for data and information.

However, I had a specific question regarding elite NYC firm placement (i.e. V10). How big of gap is there between Columbia/NYU and schools like Chicago and Penn in terms of the difficulty of attaining a V10 SA in NYC?

The common wisdom I've gained on TLS is that CCN are peer schools with Penn being closest behind if you want NYC biglaw. But after upon reviewing the 2011 Class Distribution Thread, I noticed that Columbia and NYU's placement numbers were substantially higher than Chicago's or Penn's. I know there are large differences in class size and self-selection to consider, but the sheer placement disparity begs the question: Do Columbia and NYU open up more doors at the very top or is this just splitting hairs?

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby mrloblaw » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:20 pm

Wrong forum, but td;lr, Chicago's a no-brainer if you get into all of those schools. The drastically smaller class sizes, combined with the fact that it's actually able to compete with the NYC powerhouses on their home turf, is a massive advantage.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby AmoryB » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:42 pm

Sorry, I apologize if there was any ambiguity in the OP on my part, but to clarify I didn't intend for this thread to be about picking among these schools, my question is solely in terms of hiring. I guess put more simply, what is the placement gap between Columbia/NYU and Chicago/Penn in terms of V10 NYC firm hiring?

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:48 pm

AmoryB wrote:Sorry, I apologize if there was any ambiguity in the OP on my part, but to clarify I didn't intend for this thread to be about picking among these schools, my question is solely in terms of hiring. I guess put more simply, what is the placement gap between Columbia/NYU and Chicago/Penn in terms of V10 NYC firm hiring?

The gap, in terms of numbers, is quite large. Conventional wisdom would be that in the case of Chicago that is mostly self-selection, and in the case of Penn is mostly due to worse actual placement power. That seems right to me, but it also seems hard/impossible to prove.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:59 pm

I guess put more simply, what is the placement gap between Columbia/NYU and Chicago/Penn in terms of V10 NYC firm hiring?


What are you asking? Are there more NYU/Columbia grads at V10 NYC firms than Chicago/Penn grads? Yes, of course. The classes are nearly twice as big, and the non-NY schools (especially Chicago) are a lot more national in their placement.

Or are you asking whether NYU/Columbia will "open more doors" in the V10? In other words, is it easier to get hired by a V10 NYC out of those schools than it is Chicago/Penn? The answer there is probably different for Chicago and Penn. With respect to Chicago, I suspect that you'll probably have an easier time than NYU or Columbia. There's just so few -- probably only 50 or so -- Chicago students looking for a NYC job every year. That's maybe a fifth of the number of NYU or Columbia students. Also keep in mind that many of the top Chicago students prefer DC or the elite Chicago firms, so the students applying in NYC are not culled from the top of the class, in general (not saying there aren't some top-of-the-class people trying for NYC, just that they're not overrepresented in the NYC applicants).

With respect to Penn, the class is bigger than Chicago, and NYC is a much more attractive market, relatively speaking. So there are more students, and they tend to be better students. My guess is that you'll have a much harder time getting V10 out of Penn than Chicago; whether it's harder or easier than NYU/Columbia, I just don't know. My suspicion is that the top Penn students will be more in the demand, but the median Penn students won't. But that's really just a guess.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:With respect to Chicago, I suspect that you'll probably have an easier time than NYU or Columbia. There's just so few -- probably only 50 or so -- Chicago students looking for a NYC job every year. . . . Also keep in mind that many of the top Chicago students prefer DC or the elite Chicago firms, so the students applying in NYC are not culled from the top of the class, in general (not saying there aren't some top-of-the-class people trying for NYC, just that they're not overrepresented in the NYC applicants).


Overall, pretty spot on. To expand on some things:

(1) FIfty UChicago students heading to NYC is a high estimate. It probably ends up being closer to forty.
(2) For the people on Law Review edboard, I think about twice as many are going to DC than are going to NYC. The people at the top of the class (the kind of people who could get a job anywhere) are choosing DC, and if not DC then Chicago.
(3) There are quite a few people who had offers at at least one of the V3 firms in NYC, but chose another market. Sure, maybe people turning down Cravath for Kirkland-Chicago doesn't make UChicago look as good when doing a Vault breakdown. But it's not like that option was not open to a lot of people.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby IAFG » Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:59 pm

Anonymous User wrote: There are quite a few people who had offers at at least one of the V3 firms in NYC, but chose another market. Sure, maybe people turning down Cravath for Kirkland-Chicago doesn't make UChicago look as good when doing a Vault breakdown. But it's not like that option was not open to a lot of people.

This is an important point. People at schools like Chicago, Duke, Northwestern, Michigan, etc often have the option of a NYC V5 but went into recruiting seeing NY as their backup plan. I am under the impression the same is not true of CLS, NYU, Penn and Cornell, where most are going to take NYC, and furthermore, the "best" firm they can get there.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:43 pm

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: There are quite a few people who had offers at at least one of the V3 firms in NYC, but chose another market. Sure, maybe people turning down Cravath for Kirkland-Chicago doesn't make UChicago look as good when doing a Vault breakdown. But it's not like that option was not open to a lot of people.

This is an important point. People at schools like Chicago, Duke, Northwestern, Michigan, etc often have the option of a NYC V5 but went into recruiting seeing NY as their backup plan. I am under the impression the same is not true of CLS, NYU, Penn and Cornell, where most are going to take NYC, and furthermore, the "best" firm they can get there.


This might be true, but it doesn't explain Cornell out placing Penn in all the V10's we've seen data from.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby chasgoose » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:44 pm

IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: There are quite a few people who had offers at at least one of the V3 firms in NYC, but chose another market. Sure, maybe people turning down Cravath for Kirkland-Chicago doesn't make UChicago look as good when doing a Vault breakdown. But it's not like that option was not open to a lot of people.

This is an important point. People at schools like Chicago, Duke, Northwestern, Michigan, etc often have the option of a NYC V5 but went into recruiting seeing NY as their backup plan. I am under the impression the same is not true of CLS, NYU, Penn and Cornell, where most are going to take NYC, and furthermore, the "best" firm they can get there.


I don't really buy that. I mean Chicago/Northwestern/Michigan might open up the Chicago market a bit more for people w/o ties, but its not like there are tons of jobs in that market to begin with. More likely is the fact that people chose CLS/NYU over Chicago or other schools because they wanted to be in NYC to begin with and thus viewed it as a target market, not a place to go because they had no other options. I wouldn't be surprised if more of the top people at Chicago wanted to work in DC than the top people at NYU/CLS, but i can't imagine that a similarly ranked/credentialed applicant from Chicago would have a significantly better chance at DC than if they were applying from NYU/CLS.

The biggest difference is probably the size. People talk about how the size of Chicago makes it easier to get offers, but I don't really see how that works. Since a lot of firms cutoffs are more or less based on a certain class ranking, that means that there are going to be fewer people even eligible for an offer from those places. Lets say that a firm only made offers to those in the top 20%. At CLS/NYU that means about 90 people would be eligible, but only 36 from Chicago would. If you factor out the weirdos at the top of each school's class, and the fact that top of Chicago prefers DC/Chicago firms, then there simply aren't going to be that many people taking top offers from NYC firms. One could say that they might go deeper to get Chicago grads, and they likely do a little bit, but once they get a couple, why go after more?

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby IAFG » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:48 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: There are quite a few people who had offers at at least one of the V3 firms in NYC, but chose another market. Sure, maybe people turning down Cravath for Kirkland-Chicago doesn't make UChicago look as good when doing a Vault breakdown. But it's not like that option was not open to a lot of people.

This is an important point. People at schools like Chicago, Duke, Northwestern, Michigan, etc often have the option of a NYC V5 but went into recruiting seeing NY as their backup plan. I am under the impression the same is not true of CLS, NYU, Penn and Cornell, where most are going to take NYC, and furthermore, the "best" firm they can get there.


This might be true, but it doesn't explain Cornell out placing Penn in all the V10's we've seen data from.

I wasn't seeking to explain that; far from it, I lumped Penn and Cornell into the same "NYC or bust" category. Though it's certainly possible that Penn places better into DC than Cornell does.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby IAFG » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:52 pm

chasgoose wrote:
IAFG wrote:This is an important point. People at schools like Chicago, Duke, Northwestern, Michigan, etc often have the option of a NYC V5 but went into recruiting seeing NY as their backup plan. I am under the impression the same is not true of CLS, NYU, Penn and Cornell, where most are going to take NYC, and furthermore, the "best" firm they can get there.


I don't really buy that. I mean Chicago/Northwestern/Michigan might open up the Chicago market a bit more for people w/o ties, but its not like there are tons of jobs in that market to begin with.

There don't have to be a "ton of jobs" for Mich/Chi/NU to place a fair chunk of their class there, since we tend to get first bite of the apple.
More likely is the fact that people chose CLS/NYU over Chicago or other schools because they wanted to be in NYC to begin with and thus viewed it as a target market, not a place to go because they had no other options.

Well that's not at all what I said. I am saying that a UChi student is more likely to turn down Cravath for Kirkland, or Simpson for Jenner, than a Columbia student is.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:02 pm

The biggest difference is probably the size. People talk about how the size of Chicago makes it easier to get offers, but I don't really see how that works. Since a lot of firms cutoffs are more or less based on a certain class ranking, that means that there are going to be fewer people even eligible for an offer from those places. Lets say that a firm only made offers to those in the top 20%. At CLS/NYU that means about 90 people would be eligible, but only 36 from Chicago would. If you factor out the weirdos at the top of each school's class, and the fact that top of Chicago prefers DC/Chicago firms, then there simply aren't going to be that many people taking top offers from NYC firms. One could say that they might go deeper to get Chicago grads, and they likely do a little bit, but once they get a couple, why go after more?


The theory as I understand it is that the marginal value firms see in hiring additional students after the first couple from a particular school is lower than the marginal value in hiring the first couple. There are a few plausible explanations for this -- firms want to keep their school diversity despite a smaller class size, they want a 3L presence at the school, etc. So, if a particular firm is forced to cut SAs, they first cut the #7-10 SA from (say) NYU, as opposed to all four total SA from Chicago and Stanford. This would explain, for example, why NYU seems to have been hit a little harder for the classes of 2010 and 2011 -- firms are much more willing to hire a bottom third Chicago student if he or she is going to be the only Chicago student in the summer class, as opposed to a bottom third NYU student when he or she is going to be the sixth NYU person. I will refrain from commenting on how convincing I think this is.



(Edited to take out some hyperbole.)

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby bdubs » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:07 pm

chasgoose wrote:Lets say that a firm only made offers to those in the top 20%. At CLS/NYU that means about 90 people would be eligible, but only 36 from Chicago would.


The "elite" firms, especially those with smaller classes, just can't make offers to 90 people at NYU/Columbia. Hell, they can't even interview that many people. If all 90 people at NYU and Columbia want WLRK, and only 6 of the 36 at Chicago do, then it's just a lot easier to get an offer at Chicago than it is at NYU or Columbia.

It's not a pure numbers game, it's how much competition there is for the slots. The wider the geographic preferences of the students and the fewer absolute number of students there are, the better your odds at a given firm.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
The biggest difference is probably the size. People talk about how the size of Chicago makes it easier to get offers, but I don't really see how that works. Since a lot of firms cutoffs are more or less based on a certain class ranking, that means that there are going to be fewer people even eligible for an offer from those places. Lets say that a firm only made offers to those in the top 20%. At CLS/NYU that means about 90 people would be eligible, but only 36 from Chicago would. If you factor out the weirdos at the top of each school's class, and the fact that top of Chicago prefers DC/Chicago firms, then there simply aren't going to be that many people taking top offers from NYC firms. One could say that they might go deeper to get Chicago grads, and they likely do a little bit, but once they get a couple, why go after more?


The theory as I understand it is that the marginal value firms see in hiring additional students after the first couple from a particular school is lower than the marginal value in hiring the first couple. There are a few plausible explanations for this -- firms want to keep their school diversity despite a smaller class size, they want a 3L presence at the school, etc. So, if a particular firm is forced to cut SAs, they first cut the #7-10 SA from (say) NYU, as opposed to all four total SA from Chicago and Stanford. This would explain, for example, why NYU seems to have been hit a little harder for the classes of 2010 and 2011 -- firms are much more willing to hire a bottom third Chicago student if he or she is going to be the only Chicago student in the summer class, as opposed to a bottom third NYU student when he or she is going to be the sixth NYU person. I will refrain from commenting on how convincing I think this is.



(Edited to take out some hyperbole.)



See, I'm of the opposite opinion. I feel like NYC V10s would rather shuttle in a few CLS/NYU bottomfeeders than hassle with importing some from Chicago. The alumni support is there, too.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:14 pm

bdubs wrote:
chasgoose wrote:Lets say that a firm only made offers to those in the top 20%. At CLS/NYU that means about 90 people would be eligible, but only 36 from Chicago would.


The "elite" firms, especially those with smaller classes, just can't make offers to 90 people at NYU/Columbia. Hell, they can't even interview that many people. If all 90 people at NYU and Columbia want WLRK, and only 6 of the 36 at Chicago do, then it's just a lot easier to get an offer at Chicago than it is at NYU or Columbia.

It's not a pure numbers game, it's how much competition there is for the slots. The wider the geographic preferences of the students and the fewer absolute number of students there are, the better your odds at a given firm.

Eh, some of the NYC V10 offices have 20-30 summers from NYU and CLS, each. I don't think it's out of the question that some of them called back around 100 applicants from each school.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:16 pm

A large part, 40% or so, of Penn's class is absorbed into DC and Philadelphia. This is not so for Cornell.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby 5ky » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
The biggest difference is probably the size. People talk about how the size of Chicago makes it easier to get offers, but I don't really see how that works. Since a lot of firms cutoffs are more or less based on a certain class ranking, that means that there are going to be fewer people even eligible for an offer from those places. Lets say that a firm only made offers to those in the top 20%. At CLS/NYU that means about 90 people would be eligible, but only 36 from Chicago would. If you factor out the weirdos at the top of each school's class, and the fact that top of Chicago prefers DC/Chicago firms, then there simply aren't going to be that many people taking top offers from NYC firms. One could say that they might go deeper to get Chicago grads, and they likely do a little bit, but once they get a couple, why go after more?


The theory as I understand it is that the marginal value firms see in hiring additional students after the first couple from a particular school is lower than the marginal value in hiring the first couple. There are a few plausible explanations for this -- firms want to keep their school diversity despite a smaller class size, they want a 3L presence at the school, etc. So, if a particular firm is forced to cut SAs, they first cut the #7-10 SA from (say) NYU, as opposed to all four total SA from Chicago and Stanford. This would explain, for example, why NYU seems to have been hit a little harder for the classes of 2010 and 2011 -- firms are much more willing to hire a bottom third Chicago student if he or she is going to be the only Chicago student in the summer class, as opposed to a bottom third NYU student when he or she is going to be the sixth NYU person. I will refrain from commenting on how convincing I think this is.



(Edited to take out some hyperbole.)



See, I'm of the opposite opinion. I feel like NYC V10s would rather shuttle in a few CLS/NYU bottomfeeders than hassle with importing some from Chicago. The alumni support is there, too.


If I were a 0L hellbent on NYC V10, I would go CLS>NYU>UChi, but that's just me. I mean, you look at some of these numbers, and it's clear that there are a ton of offers being tossed around for CLS.

If you at the 2012 summer thread, a quick parsing of the numbers indicates that there's already been reported 87 CLS students with a NYC V10 offer for next summer from the following firms: Cravath, S&C, Skadden, DPW, STB, Cleary. Missing Wachtell and Weil, Kirkland too if you count it. None at Covington NY, if you count that.

87 CLS students is what, 20% of the class? And that's a) only accepted offers, not all offers, and b) missing 3 firms still to come. I am sure there are students well down into median in that group. Maybe the 30-40 UChicago kids at the V10s dip down to median, too, but it seems less likely to be as easy as from CLS.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby IAFG » Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:45 pm

5ky wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
The biggest difference is probably the size. People talk about how the size of Chicago makes it easier to get offers, but I don't really see how that works. Since a lot of firms cutoffs are more or less based on a certain class ranking, that means that there are going to be fewer people even eligible for an offer from those places. Lets say that a firm only made offers to those in the top 20%. At CLS/NYU that means about 90 people would be eligible, but only 36 from Chicago would. If you factor out the weirdos at the top of each school's class, and the fact that top of Chicago prefers DC/Chicago firms, then there simply aren't going to be that many people taking top offers from NYC firms. One could say that they might go deeper to get Chicago grads, and they likely do a little bit, but once they get a couple, why go after more?


The theory as I understand it is that the marginal value firms see in hiring additional students after the first couple from a particular school is lower than the marginal value in hiring the first couple. There are a few plausible explanations for this -- firms want to keep their school diversity despite a smaller class size, they want a 3L presence at the school, etc. So, if a particular firm is forced to cut SAs, they first cut the #7-10 SA from (say) NYU, as opposed to all four total SA from Chicago and Stanford. This would explain, for example, why NYU seems to have been hit a little harder for the classes of 2010 and 2011 -- firms are much more willing to hire a bottom third Chicago student if he or she is going to be the only Chicago student in the summer class, as opposed to a bottom third NYU student when he or she is going to be the sixth NYU person. I will refrain from commenting on how convincing I think this is.



(Edited to take out some hyperbole.)



See, I'm of the opposite opinion. I feel like NYC V10s would rather shuttle in a few CLS/NYU bottomfeeders than hassle with importing some from Chicago. The alumni support is there, too.


If I were a 0L hellbent on NYC V10, I would go CLS>NYU>UChi, but that's just me. I mean, you look at some of these numbers, and it's clear that there are a ton of offers being tossed around for CLS.

If you at the 2012 summer thread, a quick parsing of the numbers indicates that there's already been reported 87 CLS students with a NYC V10 offer for next summer from the following firms: Cravath, S&C, Skadden, DPW, STB, Cleary. Missing Wachtell and Weil, Kirkland too if you count it. None at Covington NY, if you count that.

87 CLS students is what, 20% of the class? And that's a) only accepted offers, not all offers, and b) missing 3 firms still to come. I am sure there are students well down into median in that group. Maybe the 30-40 UChicago kids at the V10s dip down to median, too, but it seems less likely to be as easy as from CLS.


I don't get how this proves it is easier to get NY V10 from CLS or NYU. It shows that many CLS take those offers when they get them, but I think there is a pretty convincing argument that non-NYC students do not pursue or accept V10 offers with the same dedication.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby booboo » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:02 pm

IMO, this speculation is really beyond anyone's ability except for a recruiter within a V10 that has access to information for multiple years of hiring with the knowledge of what type of students were offered and what type of students accepted an offer.

I know that sounds like a cop out but I only say it because I think our debate here should be taken with a grain of salt.

With that in mind... I think if we look at overall power of placement (accounting for the much larger CLS and NYU class sizes within the V10 to their respective class size and propensities), CLS, NYU, and Chicago offer roughly the same placement power in NYC V10 (assuming that is what is meant by elite).

If we expand to national placement, we probably should only focus on a few markets (LA, Texas, Chicago, D.C., and the like) because beyond those markets there are just not enough students with the interest and the ability (geographic ties, etc.) to get into the smaller, insular legal markets.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby 5ky » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:03 pm

Didn't mean it as any sort of definitive proof. Just that without evidence to the contrary, as a 0L I would take the bare facts available to me that NYC V10 offers so many people from CLS/NYU that I'd be competitive down to median, and that there's no available evidence to me that UChicago people ending up in V10 (8 students accepting offers at Cravath, Skadden, DPW, STB, /Cov NY/) are necessarily down to median.

I argued strenuously in that other thread that SLS and UChi shouldn't be judged on the same scale because of the high level of self-selection out of NY. But I can't see the numbers on how many NYC V10 offers were made to UChicago students, and it would have to suspend a bit of disbelief to think that the entire top 1/3 self-selected away from NYC V10.

So I'm willing to be persuaded, but looking objectively at the facts on hand, I can't come to a different conclusion.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby IAFG » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:07 pm

5ky wrote:Didn't mean it as any sort of definitive proof. Just that without evidence to the contrary, as a 0L I would take the bare facts available to me that NYC V10 offers so many people from CLS/NYU that I'd be competitive down to median, and that there's no available evidence to me that UChicago people ending up in V10 (8 students accepting offers at Cravath, Skadden, DPW, STB, /Cov NY/) are necessarily down to median.

I argued strenuously in that other thread that SLS and UChi should be judged on the same scale because of the high level of self-selection out of NY. But I can't see the numbers on how many NYC V10 offers were made to UChicago students, and it would have to suspend a bit of disbelief to think that the entire top 1/3 self-selected away from NYC V10.

So I'm willing to be persuaded, but looking objectively at the facts on hand, I can't come to a different conclusion.

Respectfully, our argument seems to have a lot of holes in it. I'm confused about your confusion.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby booboo » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:09 pm

5ky wrote:Didn't mean it as any sort of definitive proof. Just that without evidence to the contrary, as a 0L I would take the bare facts available to me that NYC V10 offers so many people from CLS/NYU that I'd be competitive down to median, and that there's no available evidence to me that UChicago people ending up in V10 (8 students accepting offers at Cravath, Skadden, DPW, STB, /Cov NY/) are necessarily down to median.

I argued strenuously in that other thread that SLS and UChi should be judged on the same scale because of the high level of self-selection out of NY. But I can't see the numbers on how many NYC V10 offers were made to UChicago students, and it would have to suspend a bit of disbelief to think that the entire top 1/3 self-selected away from NYC V10.

So I'm willing to be persuaded, but looking objectively at the facts on hand, I can't come to a different conclusion.


I think competitive down to median is stretching it for CLS/NYU. Sure there are the extraordinary that can overcome the usual grade barriers a firm puts up (because, of course, law school is supposed to be a judgment tool), but the norm is that for a V10, you better be within the top 20% or so to be at least competitive (assuming you are the average Jane).

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby 5ky » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:12 pm

booboo wrote:
5ky wrote:Didn't mean it as any sort of definitive proof. Just that without evidence to the contrary, as a 0L I would take the bare facts available to me that NYC V10 offers so many people from CLS/NYU that I'd be competitive down to median, and that there's no available evidence to me that UChicago people ending up in V10 (8 students accepting offers at Cravath, Skadden, DPW, STB, /Cov NY/) are necessarily down to median.

I argued strenuously in that other thread that SLS and UChi should be judged on the same scale because of the high level of self-selection out of NY. But I can't see the numbers on how many NYC V10 offers were made to UChicago students, and it would have to suspend a bit of disbelief to think that the entire top 1/3 self-selected away from NYC V10.

So I'm willing to be persuaded, but looking objectively at the facts on hand, I can't come to a different conclusion.


I think competitive down to median is stretching it for CLS/NYU. Sure there are the extraordinary that can overcome the usual grade barriers a firm puts up (because, of course, law school is supposed to be a judgment tool), but the norm is that for a V10, you better be within the top 20% or so to be at least competitive (assuming you are the average Jane).


But this is directly in contradiction to the information from the other thread, where around 20% of CLS students have accepted offers at NYC V10, with three firms outstanding.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:14 pm

booboo wrote:
5ky wrote:Didn't mean it as any sort of definitive proof. Just that without evidence to the contrary, as a 0L I would take the bare facts available to me that NYC V10 offers so many people from CLS/NYU that I'd be competitive down to median, and that there's no available evidence to me that UChicago people ending up in V10 (8 students accepting offers at Cravath, Skadden, DPW, STB, /Cov NY/) are necessarily down to median.

I argued strenuously in that other thread that SLS and UChi should be judged on the same scale because of the high level of self-selection out of NY. But I can't see the numbers on how many NYC V10 offers were made to UChicago students, and it would have to suspend a bit of disbelief to think that the entire top 1/3 self-selected away from NYC V10.

So I'm willing to be persuaded, but looking objectively at the facts on hand, I can't come to a different conclusion.


I think competitive down to median is stretching it for CLS/NYU. Sure there are the extraordinary that can overcome the usual grade barriers a firm puts up (because, of course, law school is supposed to be a judgment tool), but the norm is that for a V10, you better be within the top 20% or so to be at least competitive (assuming you are the average Jane).


Top 20%? No. The line of demarcation is more like top 1/3.

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Re: Elite NYC Biglaw Placement: Columbia/NYU vs. Chicago/Penn?

Postby booboo » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:17 pm

5ky wrote:
booboo wrote:
5ky wrote:Didn't mean it as any sort of definitive proof. Just that without evidence to the contrary, as a 0L I would take the bare facts available to me that NYC V10 offers so many people from CLS/NYU that I'd be competitive down to median, and that there's no available evidence to me that UChicago people ending up in V10 (8 students accepting offers at Cravath, Skadden, DPW, STB, /Cov NY/) are necessarily down to median.

I argued strenuously in that other thread that SLS and UChi should be judged on the same scale because of the high level of self-selection out of NY. But I can't see the numbers on how many NYC V10 offers were made to UChicago students, and it would have to suspend a bit of disbelief to think that the entire top 1/3 self-selected away from NYC V10.

So I'm willing to be persuaded, but looking objectively at the facts on hand, I can't come to a different conclusion.


I think competitive down to median is stretching it for CLS/NYU. Sure there are the extraordinary that can overcome the usual grade barriers a firm puts up (because, of course, law school is supposed to be a judgment tool), but the norm is that for a V10, you better be within the top 20% or so to be at least competitive (assuming you are the average Jane).


But this is directly in contradiction to the information from the other thread, where around 20% of CLS students have accepted offers at NYC V10, with three firms outstanding.


For the average Jane. CLS and NYU are filled with people with great backgrounds who outperform their grades, lol.

Anonymous User wrote:
booboo wrote:
5ky wrote:Didn't mean it as any sort of definitive proof. Just that without evidence to the contrary, as a 0L I would take the bare facts available to me that NYC V10 offers so many people from CLS/NYU that I'd be competitive down to median, and that there's no available evidence to me that UChicago people ending up in V10 (8 students accepting offers at Cravath, Skadden, DPW, STB, /Cov NY/) are necessarily down to median.

I argued strenuously in that other thread that SLS and UChi should be judged on the same scale because of the high level of self-selection out of NY. But I can't see the numbers on how many NYC V10 offers were made to UChicago students, and it would have to suspend a bit of disbelief to think that the entire top 1/3 self-selected away from NYC V10.

So I'm willing to be persuaded, but looking objectively at the facts on hand, I can't come to a different conclusion.


I think competitive down to median is stretching it for CLS/NYU. Sure there are the extraordinary that can overcome the usual grade barriers a firm puts up (because, of course, law school is supposed to be a judgment tool), but the norm is that for a V10, you better be within the top 20% or so to be at least competitive (assuming you are the average Jane).


Top 20%? No. The line of demarcation is more like top 1/3.


Fair enough. I guess I am also trying to think of the V10 as one entity (except WLRK). So by doing that, I would assume the bottom 1/3 of that top 1/3 would have a bigger struggle at the V5, etc.

ETA: Also NYU and CLS (I think) have different demarcations. Stone is top 1/3 or top 30% or something where the named demarcation for NYU is top 25%.




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