Need big law stats on W&L, Cardozo and American Forum

[20121109]

I think everyone knows this isn't for me.

But I would like to relay employment stats to my bestie, because she has her heart set on NYC big law. Which school is best? She's in at Cardozo and American, but WL at W&L. Really hoping she gets off! Assume no scholly money at this time.

At each of these schools,

Percentage of 2L classes in big law?
Rank needed for NYC big law at each of these schools?
Rank needed to transfer to a T14 in order to increase her big law chances?
If she doesn't get off the WL, American or Cardozo? Prob Cardozo for NYC, right?

She's definitely going to law school and she's very aware of the tough legal market.


Thanks, guys <3

[JusticeHarlan]

NLJ stats for c/o 2010 had Cardozo at 12.5%, W&L at 10.57%, and American not even on the top 50 schools.

Those numbers can't be terribly predictive of hiring today, or for class of 2015 two OCIs from now, but considering Cardozo had better biglaw placement in general, and is probably placing a much higher percent in NYC, the data would seem to point in that direction.

(Goes without saying that you'll instruct your friend on the dangers of taking out debt for these schools, but for anyone else who stumbles across this thread and is making a similar decision: do not go to these schools hoping for biglaw, and do not take out massive debt to attend them.)

[20121109]

NLJ stats for c/o 2010 had Cardozo at 12.5%, W&L at 10.57%, and American not even on the top 50 schools.

Those numbers can't be terribly predictive of hiring today, or for class of 2015 two OCIs from now, but considering Cardozo had better biglaw placement in general, and is probably placing a much higher percent in NYC, the data would seem to point in that direction.

She also has St. Johns with a full scholly. Still Cardozo?

[JusticeHarlan]

What's the scholarship situation at Cardozo? Any stipulations on the St. John's scholly?

Whatever the details, though, it's hard to say one is "better" when they're both objectively gonna put her in a very difficult position, given her career goals. St. Johns isn't even in the top 50 chart, so we don't really have any idea how it placed in 2010, and even a full ride will still require some hefty cost of living loans. Were she my friend and dead set on law school, I'd say take the free options and have less of a burden upon graduation, but if you're just trying to gather all the information, Cardozo will probably give her a (marginally) better chance.

[romothesavior]

They're all pretty bad for biglaw. Cardozo is the only one that offers a realistic shot at NYC biglaw. American is about a coin flip on even getting a full-time J.D.-required job.

I hope this person has scholarships with no stips? Because otherwise this is very dangerous.

[Bobby Jones]

They're all pretty bad for biglaw. Cardozo is the only one that offers a realistic shot at NYC biglaw. American is about a coin flip on even getting a full-time J.D.-required job.

I hope this person has scholarships with no stips? Because otherwise this is very dangerous.

Did you see something I didn't? Where is American on that list? Not that I'm challenging you or anything; I have a friend who is seriously considering American and I would want to tell her if it was really that bad (I know it's not great, but it's not UDC).

[romothesavior]

They're all pretty bad for biglaw. Cardozo is the only one that offers a realistic shot at NYC biglaw. American is about a coin flip on even getting a full-time J.D.-required job.

I hope this person has scholarships with no stips? Because otherwise this is very dangerous.

Did you see something I didn't? Where is American on that list? Not that I'm challenging you or anything; I have a friend who is seriously considering American and I would want to tell her if it was really that bad (I know it's not great, but it's not UDC).

It's listed at the bottom, not on the actual list, sort of in a footnote. I think its like 59%, which is 1) likely inflated, and 2) was from 2009. So its much closer to 50%.

Also, keep in mind these aren't "good jobs." These are just JD-required lawyer jobs. Many of them are absolutely atrocious jobs that no one contemplating law school would ever hope to take.

[Grizz]

She's definitely going to law school and she's very aware of the tough legal market.

Going to those schools hoping for biglaw, Cardozo is the least dumb decision, and it's a REALLY dumb decision, considering it has a 85% failure rate. So tell her that.

Also she's going at sticker, which is insanely stupid. Retake or don't go.

[romothesavior]

She's definitely going to law school and she's very aware of the tough legal market.

Going to those schools hoping for biglaw, Cardozo is the least dumb decision, and it's a REALLY dumb decision, considering it has a 85% failure rate. So tell her that.

I was just having a conversation tonight about how so many people say they are aware of the tough legal market yet still forge ahead with their plan anyways. It's like they understand it is bad ITE, but don't fully grasp just how hard. It is one thing to say you understand it; it is another thing to truly internalize the reality of the market and then act accordingly. Saying "I'm aware its tough" is nothing more than paying lip service to the ITE Monster, which is unrelenting in its appetite for young tasty TTT meat.

Hopefully your bestie is content with not getting NYC biglaw, because overwhelming odds say she isn't getting them from any of the above schools. Obviously it is her call and not yours, so there really isn't anything you can do but be honest with her, but just make sure you relay to her that her odds are awful and her debt will be massive.

[20121109]

I know. I'll definitely forward her this information, but with an adamant nature and exhausting all of her retakes, it's difficult to be a supportive friend without watching her run headfirst into a brick wall. Luckily, she already has a midlaw job offer that pays 75K because they love her as a paralegal and think she has great potential as a lawyer, so that should mitigate some risk.

Thank you, Harlan, romo and Grizz. I appreciate the help.

[josh43299]

I know. I'll definitely forward her this information, but with an adamant nature and exhausting all of her retakes, it's difficult to be a supportive friend without watching her run headfirst into a brick wall. Luckily, she already has a midlaw job offer that pays 75K because they love her as a paralegal and think she has great potential as a lawyer, so that should mitigate some risk.

Thank you, Harlan, romo and Grizz. I appreciate the help.

Even if this is like 50% likely to happen when she graduates, I think that this means that St. Johns with the full scholarship is the best choice. I think St. Johns regardless, though. Without help, she will come out of Cardozo with 200k+ in debt (48k per year tuition).

[dixiecupdrinking]

Word on the street is that about half of Law Review at Cardozo can get BigLaw these days. I bet that's better than American, but I would hardly encourage her to go.