UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

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TJISMYHERO
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby TJISMYHERO » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:12 pm

spleenworship wrote:
Bolded is correct. 90% of people won't be in the top 10%.

The rest is anecdotal, and probably useless for OP.


Anecdotal, yes. Not necessarily useless. Sometimes a subjective perspective is more useful than an objective one. While objectively it makes no sense to "plan" on being in the top 10%, someone who subjectively is willing to both work extremely hard (we're talking 5-6 hours a day outside of class) and creatively can be successful. Think going beyond LEEWS and outlining.

For example, on my torts exam which was open book, I made a prose style outline where I had large chunks of law in exactly the format and phraseology that best conveyed mastery of the material. I could just go through the exam, spot torts, drop my pre-drafted chunks explaining the law then follow up with fact application. If OP is smart enough and dedicated enough to make it happen - he can. Sometimes I think it may be best to ignore what happens to the majority of people and just rock the fuck out of law school. It's really not that hard if you're willing to put in the time and if you can convince yourself that it's fun.

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spleenworship
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby spleenworship » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:32 pm

TJISMYHERO wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Bolded is correct. 90% of people won't be in the top 10%.

The rest is anecdotal, and probably useless for OP.


Anecdotal, yes. Not necessarily useless. Sometimes a subjective perspective is more useful than an objective one. While objectively it makes no sense to "plan" on being in the top 10%, someone who subjectively is willing to both work extremely hard (we're talking 5-6 hours a day outside of class) and creatively can be successful. Think going beyond LEEWS and outlining.

For example, on my torts exam which was open book, I made a prose style outline where I had large chunks of law in exactly the format and phraseology that best conveyed mastery of the material. I could just go through the exam, spot torts, drop my pre-drafted chunks explaining the law then follow up with fact application. If OP is smart enough and dedicated enough to make it happen - he can. Sometimes I think it may be best to ignore what happens to the majority of people and just rock the fuck out of law school. It's really not that hard if you're willing to put in the time and if you can convince yourself that it's fun.



Just because you worked really hard and got in the top ten percent does not mean that working really hard got you in the top 10%. Correlation is not causation. How many of your and my classmates went in with the exact same attitude, similar tricks of the trade, and didn't make top 10%?

Your argument makes all the 0Ls think that the reason the bottom 90% is the bottom 90% is the fact that they didn't want it enough, or try hard enough. B.S.! Wanting it has nothing to do with getting it, working hard has something to do with getting it (as does intelligence, etc.) but isn't all of it.

90% of the 0Ls reading and following this advice will not be in the top 10%.

Factors such as luck, personal circumstances, intelligence, natural talent for the law, willpower, friendships, physical constitution, professor bias, and most importantly of all how talented/intelligent/hard working/etc. their classmates are, given the forced curve, will play just as much a part in how they succeed.

OP should go to UT.

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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby zanzbar » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:40 pm

spleenworship wrote:90% of the 0Ls reading and following this advice will not be in the top 10%.



I don't think that is necessarily true I think its pretty easy to show that TLS is heavily composed of people who are more likely to be in the top 10% then if you were to take a random sample of perspective of law students. Hence why everyone below a 168 on the LSAT is typically encouraged to retake here.

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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby spleenworship » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:50 pm

zanzbar wrote:
spleenworship wrote:90% of the 0Ls reading and following this advice will not be in the top 10%.



I don't think that is necessarily true I think its pretty easy to show that TLS is heavily composed of people who are more likely to claim to be in the top 10% then if you were to take a random sample of perspective of law students. Hence why everyone below a 168 on the LSAT is typically encouraged to retake here.



FTFY

ETA: you think all the really smart people on here with the 175s and 3.9s who end up at Harvard are rocking the HPs? It is impossible. I love how, consistently, all the incredibly smart people on this board (and y'all are smart) refuse- just absolutely refuse- to believe that the statistics apply to them. It is like this board is made up entirely of fifth a day drinkers who stand around reassuring each other that none of them will get cirrhosis.

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TJISMYHERO
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby TJISMYHERO » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:54 pm

spleenworship wrote:
zanzbar wrote:
I don't think that is necessarily true I think its pretty easy to show that TLS is heavily composed of people who are more likely to be in the top 10% then if you were to take a random sample of perspective of law students. Hence why everyone below a 168 on the LSAT is typically encouraged to retake here.



FTFY

ETA: you think all the really smart people on here with the 175s and 3.9s who end up at Harvard are rocking the HPs? It is impossible. I love how, consistently, all the incredibly smart people on this board (and y'all are smart) refuse- just absolutely refuse- to believe that the statistics apply to them. It is like this board is made up entirely of fifth a day drinkers who stand around reassuring each other that none of them will get cirrhosis.


While I agree prospectives should look at the statistics and consider them carefully, I think that much of the advice on the board focuses too much on the statistics. There is still something to be said for old-fashioned determination. I am constantly surprised by how few of my classmates are adequately prepared for class and how few of them take a holistic approach to the study of law. Law school is a zero-sum game, and if you are willing to do more work and more innovative thinking than the pack, then you will stand out come exam time. Some very smart people who are capable of achieving great things are selling themselves short - while the statistics measure the whole, many individuals (particularly the self-selecting TLS crowd) have the potential to be on top of the curve.

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romothesavior
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:12 am

There is probably a correlation between hard work and grades, but its not that strong. The correlation between intelligence and grades is stronger. And the strongest correlation of all is probably between exam taking skills and grades. I think it is the biggest factor in doing well.

There is no way to just brute force your way to the top of the class. Some of the hardest working people I know can't crack top third. Some of the least hard working people I know (including myself) are near the top. You may be a worker bee, but that does not come anywhere close to assuring top grades.

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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby bartleby » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:31 am

lol, please go to UT.

the 20k scholarship per year is real. there's also a 10k scholarship for the first year and a $2,000 grant for being a texas resident. this amounts to close enough to a full ride.

i thought i was pretty smart. i'm pretty sure i had the highest lsat in my section or class. i definitely thought i'd be in the top 10%. and i'm not. and i legitimately worked really hard, harder than i've ever worked.

while a free degree is nice, even the most optimistic/happy people get stressed out by school and the environment and the competition. this is stupid but the worst part about it is knowing that the person you thought was a dumbass did better than you. i don't know if my ego will ever recover.

go to UT.

i should add, even with max scholarship, you'll still need to take money out to live and that can get pretty expensive fast. you also get old. also, while most lawyers in Houston will say "UH is a fine institution," UT has prestige that is really hard to ignore. at least according to some lawyers i'm pretty tight with that at some of the bigger firms and don't give me the usual bull shit. lastly, not sure where this top 15% is coming from. i heard they don't even bother if it isn't at the 10% cut off.

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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby pupperoni » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:38 pm

^ this. ppl who are knowledgeable about the texas market would all advise UT. UH is not the place to go for decent employment based on chances.

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brose
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby brose » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:52 pm

OP, it's easy at UH to find out what's going to be on the exam if you talk to your professors in office hours, listen during lecture, and talk to upperclassmen. TJ is right in that a bunch of my friends in different sections constantly tell me how their classmates are not prepared. Not everyone in law school is here to make the top of the class - it's readily apparent and TLS is obviously skewed in the other direction. It's really not about working hard or for long periods of time, it's about working smart and not burning out.

With that said, the statistics are against you anywhere you go, but at UH, you can do it if you listen and pay attention. Hell, if you decide to make the (bad) choice to come here, I'll out myself and come meet with you and tell you what to do. Go to UT and work your ass off there - it's time better spent. Or, don't work your ass off (and sadly, probably still have better employment prospects than me).
Last edited by brose on Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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spleenworship
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby spleenworship » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:48 pm

brose wrote:
bartleby wrote:
i thought i was pretty smart. i'm pretty sure i had the highest lsat in my section or class. i definitely thought i'd be in the top 10%. and i'm not. and i legitimately worked really hard, harder than i've ever worked.


I'm sorry but you should disregard this nonsense, OP. This guy obviously didn't find out how to game his professors. I probably had the lowest LSAT in my section and ended up above top 5%. OP, it's easy at UH to find out what's going to be on the exam if you talk to your professors in office hours, listen during lecture, and talk to upperclassmen. TJ is right in that a bunch of my friends in different sections constantly tell me how their classmates are not prepared. Not everyone in law school is here to make the top of the class - it's readily apparent and TLS is obviously skewed in the other direction. It's really not about working hard or for long periods of time, it's about working smart and not burning out.

With that said, the statistics are against you anywhere you go, but at UH, you can do it if you listen and pay attention. Hell, if you decide to make the (bad) choice to come here, I'll out myself and come meet with you and tell you what to do. Go to UT and work your ass off there - it's time better spent. Or, don't work your ass off (and sadly, probably still have better employment prospects than me).


The bolded is exactly it, IMO. We can argue all we want about how you get good grades, but no one here denies that the job opportunities that come into (and out of) attendance at a certain institution are different depending on where you go. If you can afford it, then 99% of the time it is worth it to go to a T25 school over a T50-100.

Look, maybe TJ is right, and determination is all you need. Let us say that both schools will net everyone who applies from TLS top 10% for being really determined. Fine... but it doesn't change the fact that top 10% at UT will still get better jobs than top 10% at UH.

And if I am right (or you want to, as brose put it, "[not] work your ass off") then you can go to UT, get just above median, and still have better employment prospects than the top 20% at UH.

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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby bartleby » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:18 pm

brose wrote:
bartleby wrote:
i thought i was pretty smart. i'm pretty sure i had the highest lsat in my section or class. i definitely thought i'd be in the top 10%. and i'm not. and i legitimately worked really hard, harder than i've ever worked.


I'm sorry but you should disregard this nonsense, OP. This guy obviously didn't find out how to game his professors. I probably had the lowest LSAT in my section and ended up above top 5%. OP, it's easy at UH to find out what's going to be on the exam if you talk to your professors in office hours, listen during lecture, and talk to upperclassmen. TJ is right in that a bunch of my friends in different sections constantly tell me how their classmates are not prepared. Not everyone in law school is here to make the top of the class - it's readily apparent and TLS is obviously skewed in the other direction. It's really not about working hard or for long periods of time, it's about working smart and not burning out.

With that said, the statistics are against you anywhere you go, but at UH, you can do it if you listen and pay attention. Hell, if you decide to make the (bad) choice to come here, I'll out myself and come meet with you and tell you what to do. Go to UT and work your ass off there - it's time better spent. Or, don't work your ass off (and sadly, probably still have better employment prospects than me).


brose, you do realize we have different professors, right? that's just one of the many elements that involve luck in order to get top 5%. it isn't all about hard work or working smart. for every person like you who "can do it" there's going to be a couple more people who take their shot and miss. and there are a handful of lazy people who don't do work but the vast majority do come prepared. everyone in my section is toting around the cherminsky book.

bottom line: if you want to be a lawyer and you want to maximize your odds at getting a good paying job, go to UT. congrats to brose and tj who did superrr well 1st semester

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romothesavior
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:25 pm

What I've learned over the past page:

I worked hard and was confident and did well, and so can you! Never mind those other people who worked hard and were confident and didn't do well.

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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby pupperoni » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:24 pm

i agree with romo on this point. when you attend law school, your optimistic assumption should be that you will be median and you should look at employment prospects with that in mind. note i said optimistic, not realistic.

and lol at UH ppl advising OP to come to UH to easily be at the top of the class.

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brose
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby brose » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:26 pm

bartleby wrote:
brose, you do realize we have different professors, right? that's just one of the many elements that involve luck in order to get top 5%. it isn't all about hard work or working smart. for every person like you who "can do it" there's going to be a couple more people who take their shot and miss. and there are a handful of lazy people who don't do work but the vast majority do come prepared. everyone in my section is toting around the cherminsky book.

bottom line: if you want to be a lawyer and you want to maximize your odds at getting a good paying job, go to UT. congrats to brose and tj who did superrr well 1st semester


Everyone in my section is toting around Chemerinsky too... the use of supplements is widely known. However, not everyone knows how to use them so I'm not freaking out. I'm just saying there's a certain skill involved and for the people who can identify and capitalize on it, law school exams are pretty predictable. Anyways, the conclusion is the same in this thread: hightail your way to UT, op.

Pupperoni: who's advising that? I said go to UT... anyone else who says different is not realistic.

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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby InnocuousDiatribe » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:09 pm

pupperoni wrote:i agree with romo on this point. when you attend law school, your optimistic assumption should be that you will be median and you should look at employment prospects with that in mind. note i said optimistic, not realistic.

and lol at UH ppl advising OP to come to UH to easily be at the top of the class.


I'm confused. I would think that your "optimistic assumption" should be that you'll be at the top of the class. But realistically, as spleenworship said earlier, 90% of people won't be in the top 10%. Also, I don't think anyone advised OP to come to UH to be at the top of the class, but I may not have read closely enough.

As for this debate about what gets good grades, I doubt anyone can provide a categorical rule for success. However, it has seemed to me that (1) consistency and (2) proficiency at application contribute to significantly to making the grades, i.e., working smart may be just as or more important than working hard. I've also found that creativity in terms of how and what you study is an overlooked skill that, I believe, has helped me tremendously thus far. But like everyone else, I have no empirical evidence to support this.

Anyway, OP, go to Texas. Nothing against UH (I go there), but think of it as purchasing a Corvette versus a Mustang. The Corvette's more expensive, and for regular use they both function fine. However, when you take it to the track, you know which one's going to win. Obviously, the skill level of the driver may determine who gets the more desirable outcome some of the time, but the Corvette still has the obvious advantage at the starting line.

ID

One quick edit--If your scholarship is a merit-based scholarship, that just supports what everyone else has said about going to Texas. Like I said above, there is no categorical rule to do well. Some of the time, it comes down to the luck of the draw (as to which professors you get, family emergencies, having all of the gunners in your section). And that's not a gamble you probably want to take.
Last edited by InnocuousDiatribe on Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kalvano
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby kalvano » Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:58 pm

Corvettes are shitty.

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InnocuousDiatribe
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby InnocuousDiatribe » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:10 pm

kalvano wrote:Corvettes are shitty.


I apologize for the terrible analogy. UH can be the Corvette, and Texas can be a Lamborghini Aventador.

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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby kalvano » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:28 pm

InnocuousDiatribe wrote:
kalvano wrote:Corvettes are shitty.


I apologize for the terrible analogy. UH can be the Corvette, and Texas can be a Lamborghini Aventador.



Much better.

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TJISMYHERO
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby TJISMYHERO » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:35 pm

pupperoni wrote:i agree with romo on this point. when you attend law school, your optimistic assumption should be that you will be median and you should look at employment prospects with that in mind. note i said optimistic, not realistic.

and lol at UH ppl advising OP to come to UH to easily be at the top of the class.


If you can't read closely enough to realize that no one here has been advocating that OP go to UH, then my advice on how to succeed certainly won't apply to you personally. Have fun at median.

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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby pupperoni » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:12 pm

uhh look at the first page bud and sorry but i don't think i need your advice on how to succeed so stop being rude. maybe you should have applied your "success techniques" during undergrad and increased your employment chances then by not having to attend UH. i think i will enjoy median at my school, it will still get me a decent job!

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TJISMYHERO
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby TJISMYHERO » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:26 pm

pupperoni wrote:uhh look at the first page bud and sorry but i don't think i need your advice on how to succeed so stop being rude. maybe you should have applied your "success techniques" during undergrad and increased your employment chances then by not having to attend UH. i think i will enjoy median at my school, it will still get me a decent job!


Mediocrity is boring brah, at least shoot for higher than median for god's sake. My point this entire time has been that law school is a game. A game at which your odds of performing well can be greatly increased by virtue of a lot of ingenuity and determination. And no UH student on this thread has advocated going to UH over UT.

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InnocuousDiatribe
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby InnocuousDiatribe » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:29 pm

pupperoni wrote:uhh look at the first page bud and sorry but i don't think i need your advice on how to succeed so stop being rude. maybe you should have applied your "success techniques" during undergrad and increased your employment chances then by not having to attend UH. i think i will enjoy median at my school, it will still get me a decent job!


Perhaps you should take your own advice. I hope to God you are trolling and not quite so insufferable in person.

Edit--And before I'm accused of hijacking, to add another point, OP, I greatly prefer Austin to Houston in terms of quality of life, the people, the ability to survive without a car. One downside is that the allergy season in Austin is pretty bad. On the other hand, things like Hamilton Pool and Barton Springs Greenbelt make up for it.

pupperoni
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby pupperoni » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:45 pm

InnocuousDiatribe wrote:
pupperoni wrote:uhh look at the first page bud and sorry but i don't think i need your advice on how to succeed so stop being rude. maybe you should have applied your "success techniques" during undergrad and increased your employment chances then by not having to attend UH. i think i will enjoy median at my school, it will still get me a decent job!


Perhaps you should take your own advice. I hope to God you are trolling and not quite so insufferable in person.

Edit--And before I'm accused of hijacking, to add another point, OP, I greatly prefer Austin to Houston in terms of quality of life, the people, the ability to survive without a car. One downside is that the allergy season in Austin is pretty bad. On the other hand, things like Hamilton Pool and Barton Springs Greenbelt make up for it.


what? tj tells me to "enjoy median" and that i need his techniques for no apparent reason and i am rude and insufferable? do you go to UH too? stop changing the subject tj. i said there are PPL advising OP to go to UH in the first pages, not just PPL FROM UH.

and your advice is horrible. you think a lot of the law students at any given school are not going to be determined? wow, just wow. and since when did taking a law exam take creativity? it takes a certain skill set, but creativity? wow... maybe since you have been apparently successful at UH you may want to believe that your determination and ingenuity resulted in your situation, but there are certainly a lot of other UH students who were more or just as determined and creative as you who fell below you.

the fact that you use the word "brah" and continue to insult me for being median in your imaginary world is hilarious. the fact that a UH student is making fun of others for being mediocre and hinting that others will be in a tough situation due to being median is bizarre.

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TJISMYHERO
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby TJISMYHERO » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:52 pm

pupperoni wrote:and lol at UH ppl advising OP to come to UH to easily be at the top of the class.


pupperoni wrote: i said there are PPL advising OP to go to UH in the first pages, not just PPL FROM UH.


I give up.

pupperoni
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Re: UT at sticker or U of Houston with big scholly

Postby pupperoni » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:59 pm

TJISMYHERO wrote:
pupperoni wrote:and lol at UH ppl advising OP to come to UH to easily be at the top of the class.


pupperoni wrote: i said there are PPL advising OP to go to UH in the first pages, not just PPL FROM UH.


I give up.


what? you bolded a section of the first sentence and not all of it? the first section in its entirety means UH ppl are advising OP that it is ok to come to UH since it is quite easy to be at the top of class which you and others have suggested in previous posts. there is a difference between simply going to UH vs being at the top at UH. i don't know why you can't understand that and why you choose to cherry pick my quotes? what are you trying to prove? are you trying to defend your school or what? i don't understand your hostility throughout this topic.




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