W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Better Option?

W & M (no money)
11
26%
MSU (tuition and living covered)
32
74%
 
Total votes: 43

Rdubs
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W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby Rdubs » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:19 pm

Right now I am leaning toward W & M, but I am not 100% sure - as the possibility of having absolutely zero debt from law school is enticing.

Thoughts?

titan747
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby titan747 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:25 pm

It is a terrible idea to take sticker at a school that doesn't give you at least a 50% chance of paying off your debt at all. Take the full-ride because it will leave you with more options in case the legal market remains stagnant or you decide law isn't for you.

MrAnon
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby MrAnon » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:47 pm

if you HAVE to go to law school take MSU. make sure no stipulations attached to the money

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soitgoes9
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby soitgoes9 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:51 pm

MrAnon wrote:if you HAVE to go to law school take MSU. make sure no stipulations attached to the money


or drop out if you dont meet the stipulations

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romothesavior
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:31 am

MSU, but what are the stips? And are you from Michigan? It looks like it from your profile. Michigan State is the far, far better choice for you here. Not even close.

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Grizz
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby Grizz » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:54 am

MSU is a much better choice, but honestly, I'd retake and reapply.

Rdubs
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby Rdubs » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:51 am

romothesavior wrote:MSU, but what are the stips? And are you from Michigan? It looks like it from your profile. Michigan State is the far, far better choice for you here. Not even close.



Stip is 3.0, and 3.5 to stay in the honor's program they have. I am from Michigan, but I am a little worried about the employment prospects coming out of MSU. I understand it is difficult for everyone, but there seems to be a significant difference between W & M and MSU in that arena.

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Lil Kev
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby Lil Kev » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:52 am

Rdubs wrote:
romothesavior wrote:MSU, but what are the stips? And are you from Michigan? It looks like it from your profile. Michigan State is the far, far better choice for you here. Not even close.



Stip is 3.0, and 3.5 to stay in the honor's program they have. I am from Michigan, but I am a little worried about the employment prospects coming out of MSU. I understand it is difficult for everyone, but there seems to be a significant difference between W & M and MSU in that arena.


See if they can get them to remove the stip. I mean, It's at least worth a shot.

If not, go to MSU and then drop out if you lose the scholarship.

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romothesavior
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:01 am

Rdubs wrote:
romothesavior wrote:MSU, but what are the stips? And are you from Michigan? It looks like it from your profile. Michigan State is the far, far better choice for you here. Not even close.



Stip is 3.0, and 3.5 to stay in the honor's program they have. I am from Michigan, but I am a little worried about the employment prospects coming out of MSU. I understand it is difficult for everyone, but there seems to be a significant difference between W & M and MSU in that arena.

Job prospects probably aren't great, but for a Michigan man who has ties and all that, you should be okay because your risk is so low. Look at it this way: the average student at W&M is getting a job starting at 40-50k. The average student at MSU is doing the same. Say you are an average student, which you should assume you will be. Would you rather be making that with close to 200k in debt, or making that with no debt?

You're unlikely to get any sort of big firm job out of MSU, but making 40-50k with no debt is a perfectly fine result.

Rdubs
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby Rdubs » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:39 am

romothesavior wrote:
Rdubs wrote:
romothesavior wrote:MSU, but what are the stips? And are you from Michigan? It looks like it from your profile. Michigan State is the far, far better choice for you here. Not even close.



Stip is 3.0, and 3.5 to stay in the honor's program they have. I am from Michigan, but I am a little worried about the employment prospects coming out of MSU. I understand it is difficult for everyone, but there seems to be a significant difference between W & M and MSU in that arena.

Job prospects probably aren't great, but for a Michigan man who has ties and all that, you should be okay because your risk is so low. Look at it this way: the average student at W&M is getting a job starting at 40-50k. The average student at MSU is doing the same. Say you are an average student, which you should assume you will be. Would you rather be making that with close to 200k in debt, or making that with no debt?

You're unlikely to get any sort of big firm job out of MSU, but making 40-50k with no debt is a perfectly fine result.


I understand where you are coming from, but the reported employment statistics suggest that there is (at least in private practice) a $30,000/ year difference in median incomes. Also, it looks like there is a 32% difference in number of graduates with full-time jobs requiring bar passage. How significant are these differences?

http://law.wm.edu/careerservices/docume ... %20web.pdf

--LinkRemoved--

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romothesavior
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:02 pm

Rdubs wrote:http://law.wm.edu/careerservices/documents/2010%20employment%20profile%20for%20web.pdf

--LinkRemoved--

I admittedly know little about MSU's job placement statistics. I'll just say that you should never, ever, ever, ever rely on school-reported job data. There is no doubt that W&M has better job placement. I just looked at LST (which I personally don't trust much) and it looks like MSU has pretty poor job placement. But your odds of getting nothing are decent from both schools, and your odds of getting a low paying job are very high from both schools. I'd rather pay nothing to stay on my home turf where I have all of my connections and my best chances of getting a job, rather than go to W&M and throw up a hail mary that I'd be in the top 10-15% and land a biglaw job.

CanadianWolf
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:04 pm

MSU or try for one of the W&M fellowships/stipends if you must attend law school this year. Consider retaking if you are confident that you can raise your score by more than 3 points.

MrAnon
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby MrAnon » Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:20 pm

I don't think there are many people who look back and say "Gee, I wish I had paid full ride for William & Mary."

Rdubs
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby Rdubs » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:08 pm

Update: MSU won't waive my stip, and W & M doesn't appear to be wanting to budge on financial aid.

Also, the vote on the poll is split roughly 66 / 33 in favor of MSU, but only those in favor of MSU have replied. Does anyone in support of W & M have anything to add? Right now the full-ride is looking rather appealing, but I would like to get some thoughts from the other perspective.

CanadianWolf
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:14 pm

Wm.& Mary's NLJ 250 placement is very close to that of WashUStL. W&M's students are of a higher calibre based on admissions selectivity. W&M offers East Coast opportunities.
MSU offers a free law degree with limited placement with biglaw & federal clerkships even in its own region.
Although I haven't checked in awhile, I believe that your stats of 161/3.8 are at or near the minimum for the MSU sacholarship which you received.
Much depends upon what you want to do after law school. In my opinion, if you finish in the top 20%-25% after your first year at W&M, then that's better than top 10% at MSU with respect to career opportunities. If you perform at median or below at W&M, then MSU is the better option.
MSU is a large law school that wants to grow larger. W&M is a small law school in a highly competitive market.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:16 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Wm.& Mary's NLJ 250 placement is very close to that of WashUStL. W&M's students are of a higher calibre based on admissions selectivity. W&M offers East Coast opportunities.
MSU offers a free law degree with limited placement with biglaw & federal clerkships even in its own region.

As someone who goes to WUSTL, I can tell you this is nothing to brag about. I'd never tell someone to go here at sticker so I wouldn't tell OP to go to a school with even worse prospects at sticker.

CanadianWolf
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:20 pm

Who said that it was "bragging" ? Just offering a perspective requested by OP. Also, if awarded a fellowship at W&M, then OP gets in-state rates & a stipend. Overall, it is tough to compare the two law schools. OP needs to prioritize "free with limited opportunities" versus "more costly with more opportunities in a highly competitive market".

P.S. The administration at MSU is known for honesty & integrity with respect to employment data & handling of scholarships (high majority keep them, but, if lost, can be regained in the final year).

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romothesavior
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:26 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Who said that it was "bragging" ? Just offering a perspective requested by OP. Also, if awarded a fellowship at W&M, then OP gets in-state rates & a stipend. Overall, it is tough to compare the two law schools. OP needs to prioritize "free with limited opportunities" versus "more costly with more opportunities in a highly competitive market".

I didn't mean you personally was bragging. I just meant that placing like WUSTL is not a big deal. Yes WM has better prospects, but they are still poor. Not worth 150k+.

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thexfactor
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby thexfactor » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:57 pm

Retake, try to get that 3.8 to 3.9 and do UVA ED next cycle and enjoy 50/50 shot at biglaw. Ive heard of several non URM students getting into UVA with 3.8x + low 160s.

The problem with MSU full ride is that you might still waste 3 years of your time if you do not have a job. Outside special language skillz and IP, you need top 10% to be competitive at biglaw detroit. Top 10% is by no means "safe."

The problem with such a high requirement is that it gives you no "wiggleroom." You need to kill it on essentially every law school exam. Ive seen people's computer die in the middle of exams, throw up during exams... etc Sometimes luck can play a big factor between top 10% and top 15%.

Also law school exams are pretty different than anything in ugrad. Sometimes it takes a semester before some people realize how to take law school exams. That might be too late for MSU.
Last edited by thexfactor on Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AreJay711
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:02 pm

romothesavior wrote:Michigan State is the far, far better choice for you here. Not even close.


This. Most people at U of M either aren't from MI or don't want to end up in MI so MSU isn't a terrible place to go and free is free.

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thexfactor
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby thexfactor » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:06 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Michigan State is the far, far better choice for you here. Not even close.


This. Most people at U of M either aren't from MI or don't want to end up in MI so MSU isn't a terrible place to go and free is free.



I disagree. There aren't a ton of michigan law firms that hire SAs on a consistant basis. Even the biggest firms in Michigan like Miller Canfield have been taking 5-6 SAs. I think there are only about 10-15 firms that pay close to Michigan market salary. I checked the profile of all the SAs and I don't think I remember one SA being from a non t14 school. I doubt any of those firms would take more than 1 SA from MSU.

I think you are also underestimating the pull that UM grads hav in the detroit area.There are actually a decent amount of Umich kids that are from the Detroit area and that want to stay in Detroit.

Furthermore, MSU full ride may seem like a good deal but 3 years of your time is also a cost that you have to consider. Time= money. Your time might be better spent on a different career or Lsat prep.

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AreJay711
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby AreJay711 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:23 pm

thexfactor wrote:
AreJay711 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Michigan State is the far, far better choice for you here. Not even close.


This. Most people at U of M either aren't from MI or don't want to end up in MI so MSU isn't a terrible place to go and free is free.



I disagree. There aren't a ton of michigan law firms that hire SAs on a consistant basis. Even the biggest firms in Michigan like Miller Canfield have been taking 5-6 SAs. I think there are only about 10-15 firms that pay close to Michigan market salary. I checked the profile of all the SAs and I don't think I remember one SA being from a non t14 school. I doubt any of those firms would take more than 1 SA from MSU.

I think you are also underestimating the pull that UM grads hav in the detroit area.There are actually a decent amount of Umich kids that are from the Detroit area and that want to stay in Detroit.

Furthermore, MSU full ride may seem like a good deal but 3 years of your time is also a cost that you have to consider. Time= money. Your time might be better spent on a different career or Lsat prep.


With 10 million people in the state it isn't like there aren't jobs out there and it was just in comparison to W&M at sticker. Maybe rethinking law school at all is in order but I really don't think anyone should be biglaw or bust in the world of IBR.

Rdubs
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby Rdubs » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:38 am

Alright... I went to W & M for the asw and loved every second of if. I contacted them afterwards, and was awarded a scholarship of 10k per year... thoughts??

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romothesavior
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby romothesavior » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:52 pm

Rdubs wrote:Alright... I went to W & M for the asw and loved every second of if. I contacted them afterwards, and was awarded a scholarship of 10k per year... thoughts??

Still way too expensive.

CanadianWolf
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Re: W & M (no money oos) v MSU (Full-Tuition + Living Costs)

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:25 pm

Does the scholarship award also reduce you to in-state tuition if not a Virginia resident ? if not, did you apply for a fellowship ?




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