Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby The Brainalist » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:27 pm

LRAP is good for enabling people to pursue low-paying positions, but low-paying positions and big-law aren't the only two options. If OP wanted to start out in the EPA or a state environmental agency, for example, it is possible to get paid 100k pretty quickly. In that case, OP could be stuck paying fully 238k without the huge salary to justify it. IMO, LRAP is not at all equivalent to scholarship.
Last edited by The Brainalist on Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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20130312
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby 20130312 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:28 pm

The Brainalist wrote:If OP wanted to start out in the EPA or a state environmental agency, for example, it is possible to get paid 100k pretty quickly.


Everything about this is wrong.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby The Brainalist » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:33 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:If OP wanted to start out in the EPA or a state environmental agency, for example, it is possible to get paid 100k pretty quickly.


Everything about this is wrong.


I'm presuming the EPA is GS-11 to maybe GS-13 or GS-14. Am I wrong?

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Nelson
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby Nelson » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:37 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:If OP wanted to start out in the EPA or a state environmental agency, for example, it is possible to get paid 100k pretty quickly.


Everything about this is wrong.

Yeah, especially state government. Many state government attorneys won't see 100k for their entire career.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby The Brainalist » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:40 pm

Nelson wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:If OP wanted to start out in the EPA or a state environmental agency, for example, it is possible to get paid 100k pretty quickly.


Everything about this is wrong.

Yeah, especially state government. Many state government attorneys won't see 100k for their entire career.


Am I wrong on the EPA? Also, I know for a fact many california state attorneys are making at or close to 100k. It kind of maxes out around there, but it gets there fairly quickly. I'm not sure you all actually know what you are talking about.

splittinghairs
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby splittinghairs » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:58 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
Nelson wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:If OP wanted to start out in the EPA or a state environmental agency, for example, it is possible to get paid 100k pretty quickly.


Everything about this is wrong.

Yeah, especially state government. Many state government attorneys won't see 100k for their entire career.


Am I wrong on the EPA? Also, I know for a fact many california state attorneys are making at or close to 100k. It kind of maxes out around there, but it gets there fairly quickly. I'm not sure you all actually know what you are talking about.


Yes, you are indeed mistaken, EPA attorneys start as GS 9 typically which is usually 50-60k depending which city you live in. You might be promoted to a different track but i am not sure how often and how likely that is to happen. But there are atleast, incremental increases every year. You get to multiply these figures by COL bonus which is anywhere from 14-35% of your base pay.

Here is GS 9 from step 1 -10

41563
42948
44333
45718
47103
48488
49873
51258
52643
54028

It has been brought to my attention that you get promoted to GS 11 if you pass the bar in the any state, so apparently it is easy to make the jump to GS 11 as an attorney. In fact, by your 10th year, if you multiply the Locality pay adjustment you might approach 80-90k depending on where you live.

$50,287 $51,963 $53,639 $55,315 $56,991 $58,667 $60,343 $62,019 $63,695 $65,371
Last edited by splittinghairs on Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Nelson
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby Nelson » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:13 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
Nelson wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:If OP wanted to start out in the EPA or a state environmental agency, for example, it is possible to get paid 100k pretty quickly.


Everything about this is wrong.

Yeah, especially state government. Many state government attorneys won't see 100k for their entire career.


Am I wrong on the EPA? Also, I know for a fact many california state attorneys are making at or close to 100k. It kind of maxes out around there, but it gets there fairly quickly. I'm not sure you all actually know what you are talking about.

Considering this stuff is freely available on the internet, I did your research for you.

California (from http://www.sco.ca.gov/compensation_search.html ):

I couldn't find specific environmental positions, but starting salaries for the Office of Administrative Law were 56,088 for Staff Counsel.

For the attorney generals office, starting salaries were 56,088 for starting DAGs.

NJ for comparison's sake (from http://nj.gov/transparency/payroll/ ):

Starting salaries for NJ DAGs: 62,191

You won't see salaries close to six figures until you have years of service. Yes, government work pays fine if stick with it. I don't think anyone is disputing that. But the idea that you won't qualify for LRAP is wrong.

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Grizz
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby Grizz » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:24 pm

Too bad CA state govt hiring and bigfed are largely a myth ITE.

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Nelson
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby Nelson » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:02 pm

Grizz wrote:Too bad CA state govt hiring and bigfed are largely a myth ITE.

This too.

Paul Campos
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby Paul Campos » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:02 pm

Grizz wrote:Too bad CA state govt hiring and bigfed are largely a myth ITE.



The OP's plan is to get a job as a lawyer with a public interest environmental law firm. Last year such firms filled a total of 31 "entry-level" attorney positions nationwide, from a pool of 4,786 applicants. The average number of years of legal practice among the attorneys who got these "entry-level" positions was 7.1.*



*Per standard legal academic practice, all numbers are made up for the purposes of argument.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby The Brainalist » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:53 pm

splittinghairs wrote:
Yes, you are indeed mistaken, EPA attorneys start as GS 9 typically which is usually 50-60k depending which city you live in. You might be promoted to a different track but i am not sure how often and how likely that is to happen. But there are atleast, incremental increases every year. You get to multiply these figures by COL bonus which is anywhere from 14-35% of your base pay.

Here is GS 9 from step 1 -10

41563
42948
44333
45718
47103
48488
49873
51258
52643
54028

It has been brought to my attention that you get promoted to GS 11 if you pass the bar in the any state, so apparently it is easy to make the jump to GS 11 as an attorney. In fact, by your 10th year, if you multiply the Locality pay adjustment you might approach 80-90k depending on where you live.

$50,287 $51,963 $53,639 $55,315 $56,991 $58,667 $60,343 $62,019 $63,695 $65,371


You have an apt name. There are basically no attorneys that start at GS-9, that is what they pay law clerks who do summer programs. GS-11 is starting almost across the board for federal attorneys. EPA goes up to at least GS-12 after one year, which is more like 80k after your first year in most major markets. But, they have attorney positions at the GS-13 to GS-14 scale (see, e.g. http://www.usajobs.org/jobs/71515883/At ... 0%2014.htm). Most agency attorneys in sophisticated areas of law get you from GS-11 to GS-14 on a lock-step promotion, so you'll be there in three years. I never said you'd not at all qualify for LRAP, but at most you'd get it for 3 years and, depending on the program, a lot of it would be phased out during those three years.

Nelson, I know some states are cheaper than others, but California, which is really the only one I'm familiar with (and the state where Berk is located, btw), has much higher paying jobs in the Attorney General's office where, again, you hit near 100k within about four years, and it is about the same in a variety of the agencies in California. The office of administrative law sounds like an odd one for you to pick, but the office of alternative energy and the state coastal conservancy have staff counsel positions listed which pay between 92k and 113k. --LinkRemoved--

Point is, a lot of government positions in this area of law are going to knock you out of LRAP. You can split hairs all you want, but LRAP does not equal scholarship.

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IAFG
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby IAFG » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:44 am

Which state or Fed employers are hiring people straight out of school? Answer: almost none.

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Redamon1
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby Redamon1 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:22 am

hownowbrowncow wrote:
bk1 wrote:Is that 9k total or 9k/year?


9k/year. Yeah, it would definitely save me a good amount of money. BUT, I've been checking out Berkeley's LRAP and it looks really solid.


Also wait to see B's aid package.

hownowbrowncow
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby hownowbrowncow » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:26 pm

Paul Campos wrote:
Grizz wrote:Too bad CA state govt hiring and bigfed are largely a myth ITE.



The OP's plan is to get a job as a lawyer with a public interest environmental law firm. Last year such firms filled a total of 31 "entry-level" attorney positions nationwide, from a pool of 4,786 applicants. The average number of years of legal practice among the attorneys who got these "entry-level" positions was 7.1.*



*Per standard legal academic practice, all numbers are made up for the purposes of argument.


Hey Paul, I appreciate your input. Can you tell me where you got the numbers? I'm trying to find data on the interneats to help me with my decision.

hownowbrowncow
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby hownowbrowncow » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:27 pm

Redamon1 wrote:
hownowbrowncow wrote:
bk1 wrote:Is that 9k total or 9k/year?


9k/year. Yeah, it would definitely save me a good amount of money. BUT, I've been checking out Berkeley's LRAP and it looks really solid.


Also wait to see B's aid package.


Yeah, I like their matching option for scholarships. Hopefully when I hear back from some schools that are on Berkeley's matching list I can squeeze some more money out of em.

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20130312
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby 20130312 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:28 pm

hownowbrowncow wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:*Per standard legal academic practice, all numbers are made up for the purposes of argument.


Hey Paul, I appreciate your input. Can you tell me where you got the numbers? I'm trying to find data on the interneats to help me with my decision.


Image

hownowbrowncow
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby hownowbrowncow » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:43 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
hownowbrowncow wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:*Per standard legal academic practice, all numbers are made up for the purposes of argument.


Hey Paul, I appreciate your input. Can you tell me where you got the numbers? I'm trying to find data on the interneats to help me with my decision.


Image


Ah, you slapped me in the face with your fancy lawyer words. I see what you did there.

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sunynp
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby sunynp » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:53 pm

bk1 wrote:
MrAnon wrote:You guys should really assume NOTHING about any schools LRAP. Those programs can be wiped away in a heartbeat and schools can and do change them.

Best example: http://abovethelaw.com/2009/06/unc-law- ... e-program/


Of course they CAN be wiped away, but it is not a bad bet to believe that LRAP programs at top schools won't change. Many of them basically lock you into a given LRAP based on your graduation date so that even if the program changes down the line, you still get the same LRAP that you signed up for when you matriculated.

UNC isn't a good example since LRAP programs at non-top tier schools generally suck (because these schools don't have the same kind of endowments/funding that top tier schools have).


Just to clarify that LRAP can change, Yale recently changed their program. I think though, the changes don't apply to students who are already under the program. Still, the point remains that LRAP can be changed by any school. I'm not sure if you lock in when you matriculate or when you apply for LRAP.

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IAFG
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Re: Berkeley vs. UT (in state)

Postby IAFG » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:56 pm

sunynp wrote:
Just to clarify that LRAP can change, Yale recently changed their program. I think though, the changes don't apply to students who are already under the program. Still, the point remains that LRAP can be changed by any school. I'm not sure if you lock in when you matriculate or when you apply for LRAP.

Tweaking and improving LRAP is not really what we're talking about. We're talking about big, game-changing changes that result in grads getting fucked over by their schools. That top schools will tweak their LRAPs is a given. That they will do so without fucking people over is a safe bet.




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